Comparisons or just accept as is...?

[dopplerdog]

R'hollorism/Lord of the Light religion is not like (traditional) Christianity at all (other than the fact that the burning of the statues of Seven by Stannis reminds me of the prince Vladimir of Kiev (10th century) throwing the statues of the Slavic gods into the river as a part of his forced christianization of his people, after he had converted himself). It's most reminiscent of Zoroastrianism, or Manichaeism or maybe the medieval dualist Christian 'heresies' (the Bogumils, the Cathars etc.).

The Faith of the Seven is a lot more like Christianity, i.e. established Christian churches, most specifically like the Catholic Church, especially in its structure, even though GRRM made it a polytheist religion - but even that is ambiguous, since we learn that their official theology says the Seven are just aspects of one deity (a bit like the Holy Trinity). So, it's a curious mix of Catholicism and polytheism, but even the polytheistic aspect is absolutely nothing like the Greco-Roman pantheon.

How is R'hollorism not like medieval Christianity? It is monotheistic. It has good/evil dualism. It is intolerant of other religions (much like early orthodox christianity was). It destroys the idols of rival religions. It burns unbelievers at the stake. It is overly preoccupied with the souls of the dead. I'm not speaking of some theoretical Christianity - but actual state sanctioned orthodoxy as was seen in early medieval times.

It is also very much like Zoroastianism and Manichaeism, but these two have much in common with Christianity too. However, Zoroastrianism and Manichaeism did not burn people at the stake.

Although Catholics believe in the Holy Trinity, they do not consider the three aspects as different gods. Seeing them as different gods was a heresy punishable by death by the early church. In addition, the Faith of the Seven is pluralistic and tolerant of other religions (greco-roman paganism did not try to crush other religions unless they interfered with the cult of the state). Compare this with the fanatical zeal of medieval Christianity - which is totally absent in the Faith of the Seven (and totally present in R'hollorism).

In any case, the parallels must end somewhere - the pantheon of the Seven can't be identical to that of the greco-romans, and the theology of R'holorism can't be identical to the christian one. But in terms of monotheism/polytheism, on good/evil dualism,. on tolerance, and methods of execution, the comparison is obvious.

edit: And the identification with greco-roman paganism is also fairly obvious: Warrior=Mars/Ares, Maiden=Venus/Aphrodite, Smith=Vulcan/Hephaistos, Mother=Demeter/Ceres/Juno/Hera, Father=Jupiter/Zeus, Crone=Minerva/Athena/Hecate, Stranger=Pluto/Hades. But again, it'd be silly to expect it to be an exact match.

Having said all that, I recognise that GRRM borrowed quite a bit from the structure/organisation of the Catholic Church - the idea of Septs/Septons/Septas have clear equivalents in Catholicism. Let's just say the Church of the Faith of the Seven is an amalgalm of Catholicism and Pagan polytheism, at least as far as organization goes.

[Annara Snow]

How is R'hollorism not like medieval Christianity? It is monotheistic. It has good/evil dualism. It is intolerant of other religions (much like early orthodox christianity was). It destroys the idols of rival religions. It burns unbelievers at the stake. It is overly preoccupied with the souls of the dead. I'm not speaking of some theoretical Christianity - but actual state sanctioned orthodoxy as was seen in early medieval times.

How is R'hollorism preoccupied with souls of the dead? They don't even seem to have a concept of hell, or heaven, and I can't remember any mention of the souls of the dead.

R'hollorism does not as a rule burn people, or destroy idols. We've seen none of that from Thoros (who's completely tolerant of other religions) or from the red priests in Volantis. Only Melisandre does that. Moqorro also doesn't insist on Victarion rejecting the Drowned God in order to accept R'llor.

And actually, Melisandre doesn't burn people for being unbelievers, either. She burns those she needs to burn as a sacrifice to get something done. Christianity does not include human sacrifice, so that's also not really a similarity. Also, despite the burnings of the 'idols', the people working for Stannis were never actually forced to convert - Davos never does, for instance - some people just did it either out of genuine belief, or opportunism (like Alester Florent, after he left Renly's side for Stannis).

R'hllorism also has rather loose structure as a religious organization - and wondering priests who have no contact or responsibility whatsoever to the church in Essos.

And as for killing unbelievers, according to TWOAIF, the Andals - followers of the Seven - were far more intolerant and killed and burned the followers of the Old Gods far more diligently than Melisandre does, when they invaded Westeros. Religious tolerance was something that only developed in time.

It is also very much like Zoroastianism and Manichaeism, but these two have much in common with Christianity too.

Not really, except in the way that all religions share something in common. Though I guess you could say that Christianity is a slightly closer to Zoroastrianism than Judaism is, what with the fixation on Satan etc.

However, Zoroastrianism and Manichaeism did not burn people at the stake.

Of course they didn't. Religions don't burn people. People do.

It's not like Christians invented religious intolerance. As a matter of fact, early Christians themselves were burned, tortured, killed in all sort of gruesome ways for belonging to the religion that was seen as dangerous in its teachings.

Although Catholics believe in the Holy Trinity, they do not consider the three aspects as different gods. Seeing them as different gods was a heresy punishable by death by the early church. In addition, the Faith of the Seven is pluralistic and tolerant of other religions (greco-roman paganism did not try to crush other religions unless they interfered with the cult of the state). Compare this with the fanatical zeal of medieval Christianity - which is totally absent in the Faith of the Seven (and totally present in R'hollorism)

.

You know what else was a heresy punishable by death in Christianity? Dualism. Have you heard of medieval dualist heresies, their conflict with the established churches (Catholic church and Orthodox churches) and the way their followers were persecuted and brutally killed? (Which was really because they were politically dangerous, just like early Christians.)

Christianity is not dualistic, or at best, has a mild form of dualism. God is supposed to one and all-powerful, Satan is not as powerful as he is. God is supposed to be the creator of everything. That's not like the religion of the Lord of Light, where R'hllor and the Great Other are equally powerful, just like Ahura Mazda and Ahriman; half of the things in the world are created by/belong to the "good" god, and half to the "evil".

edit: And the identification with greco-roman paganism is also fairly obvious: Warrior=Mars/Ares, Maiden=Venus/Aphrodite, Smith=Vulcan/Hephaistos, Mother=Demeter/Ceres/Juno/Hera, Father=Jupiter/Zeus, Crone=Minerva/Athena/Hecate, Stranger=Pluto/Hades. But again, it'd be silly to expect it to be an exact match.

Why Greco-Roman paganism, specifically? Every polytheistic/pagan religion had some gods with roughly similar characteristics/functions. Greco-Roman pantheon, in its fully developed version that we know, doesn't strike me as especially similar to the Seven. You can certainly see very drastic differences between the Maiden and Aphrodite? Or the Father, who is supposed to be all about justice, and Zeus, who... was really not, to put it mildly? Ditto the Mother, symbol of mercy, and the very not merciful Hera. Ares also does not come off as an idealized warrior at all - the role of the warrior is split between him and Athena, who represents smart, tactical waging of war. There's also a whole bunch of other gods and demi-gods and a very complicated mythology that this comparison doesn't cover at all.

The Seven are not like the Greco-Roman pantheon. They aren't willful and deeply flawed beings who are constantly meddling in the lives of humans and deciding their fate; they're ideals, idealized symbols of certain aspects of life, who may protect you if you pray to them. (That may be how Greek and Roman polytheism started, but the mythology it developed is very different.) And they're also supposed to be aspects of the same god, which muddles the distinction between polytheism and monotheism further. (Something that can also be seen in Christianity, with its worship of Jesus, Virgin Mary/Mary Mother of God, the saints, and the concept of Holy Trinity. One could wonder if the natural inclination of most believers is to latch onto multiple figures of worship, including female ones, even when they are supposed to uphold a monotheistic religion.)

Let's just say the Church of the Faith of the Seven is an amalgalm of Catholicism and Pagan polytheism, at least as far as organization goes.

That much I agree with. GRRM doesn't have 1:1 parallels but mixes different elements from real life, but also adds new elements.

[dopplerdog]

And as for killing unbelievers, according to TWOAIF, the Andals - followers of the Seven - were far more intolerant and killed and burned the followers of the Old Gods far more diligently than Melisandre does, when they invaded Westeros. Religious tolerance was something that only developed in time.

It's not like Christians invented religious intolerance. As a matter of fact, early Christians themselves were burned, tortured, killed in all sort of gruesome ways for belonging to the religion that was seen as dangerous in its teachings.

Most Pagan religions I can think of were tolerant. Even when Christians were persecuted, they weren't persecuted for believing in their god, they were persecuted for refusing to take part in the cult of the state. They were persecuted because of their exclusivity, because they could not be brought to worship other gods. It was a state decision to prosecute them as treasonous, nothing to do with Paganism as such (their tolerance is why Romans could believe in multiple deities at the same time, even outside the usual pantheon).

Paganism usually was tolerant. Greco-Roman paganism, for instance, was very inclusive: it readily accepted gods from other cultures. It was when Christians refused to take part in the cult of the state, or recognise the emperor as a god, that Christians ran into trouble. And the issue here is that Christianity is exclusive: it's not possible to be a Christian while accepting other gods. It is in this respect that Christianity is intolerant - it sees rival deities as frauds at best, as demons at worst. And in this regard, R'hllor is very similar. I can't think of Seven-ites claiming that the Old Gods were demons, but this is something that followers of R'hllor do.

You know what else was a heresy punishable by death in Christianity? Dualism. Have you heard of medieval dualist heresies, their conflict with the established churches (Catholic church and Orthodox churches) and the way their followers were persecuted and brutally killed? (Which was really because they were politically dangerous, just like early Christians.)

Christianity is not dualistic, or at best, has a mild form of dualism. God is supposed to one and all-powerful, Satan is not as powerful as he is. God is supposed to be the creator of everything. That's not like the religion of the Lord of Light, where R'hllor and the Great Other are equally powerful, just like Ahura Mazda and Ahriman; half of the things in the world are created by/belong to the "good" god, and half to the "evil".

No, I said that Christianity has a good/evil duality that Paganism doesn't have, much like R'hllorism has a light/dark duality that the Faith of the Seven doesn't have. In Christianity, an act is good if it is according to God's own laws - and it is evil otherwise. In Paganism, an act can please one god but displease another - much like in the Faith of the Seven, where it's possible that an act blessed by the Warrior could be in contradiction to the wishes of the Mother - even though some say they are facets of the one god. Some characters in the books struggle with this theological problem. This dilemma is not possible in Christianity or in R'hllorism - something is pleasing to God or it's not, much like something is either pleasing to R'hllor or it's not.

Why Greco-Roman paganism, specifically?

It's one that came to mind, but it's not specific to Greco-Roman paganism.