Sansa's memory related to Sandor

[Lady Winter Rose]

OK, I read Small Questions topic regularly and I notice one question arise constantly.

Why does Sansa think Sandor kiss her although he didn't?

What syndrome is that? Stockholm? Other? Does she hallucinate? Or is simple misremembering?

GRRM once told this is important, but how?

[Alexia]

Sansa is misremembering that he kissed her because she wishes that he had. Basically, she is just romanticizing the night he came to her room for her -- he took a song and a kiss and left me nothing but a bloody cloak. :lol:

As to why it is important, I believe that it is in part meant to show that she's begun to suffer some mental breakdown from the trauma of her time in KL and GRRM has said that it will be more significant in the future. I am guessing that it will be when she encounters Sandor Clegane again.

[Black Amethyst]

OK, I read Small Questions topic regularly and I notice one question arise constantly.

Why does Sansa think Sandor kiss her although he didn't?

What syndrome is that? Stockholm? Other? Does she hallucinate? Or is simple misremembering?

GRRM once told this is important, but how?

He didn't actually kiss her, but that seems to be what she wanted to have happened in her mind. As for why, I think because she cared about him and he DID try to protect her from all the shit at Kings Landing. I think it was also kinda significant WHEN she thought about that. She's back in a scary situation with no protector. She misses him most likely.

[mormont]

In this respect, I also find it interesting to compare the incident with Joff and Mycah. When she's asked to tell this story in front of Robert and the court, Sansa says she 'doesn't remember'. Later, though, when the stakes are far less, she seems to misremember this as well, suggesting that she recalls a version more in line with Joff's. Now, at this point there's actually little gain to her in this, but I do wonder if what GRRM is trying to tell us is that Sansa is inclined to misremember, or even revise her memories, and whether that might become important.

ETA - arguably it's already important, of course, if you read her scenes with LF in AFFC.

[Cadiva]

I think she's creating a more romantic picture in her head of what happened as a means of dealing with what was going on in KL at that time. Sandor is the only one of Joff's guards who treated her with any kindness and I think she's unconsciously fascinated with him even though, really, he's a nasty piece of work.

[FacelessGirl]

It all boils down to burgeoning hormones and a teenage girl's romanticism. ^_^

[FacelessGirl]

It all boils down to burgeoning hormones and a teenage girl's romanticism. ^_^

Plus it helps that Sandor basically represents the ultimate bad boy archetype.

[littlebird_]

In this respect, I also find it interesting to compare the incident with Joff and Mycah. When she's asked to tell this story in front of Robert and the court, Sansa says she 'doesn't remember'. Later, though, when the stakes are far less, she seems to misremember this as well, suggesting that she recalls a version more in line with Joff's. Now, at this point there's actually little gain to her in this, but I do wonder if what GRRM is trying to tell us is that Sansa is inclined to misremember, or even revise her memories, and whether that might become important.

ETA - arguably it's already important, of course, if you read her scenes with LF in AFFC.

I don't remember her memories about the incident with Joff but this is an interesting observation because I tend to think there is more to her misremembering things than just a possible crush on Sandor. I think she might be revising her memories to fit a better picture, she has gone through some traumatic experiences and its easier to forget or change them than to deal with them, its probably why its easier to also become Alayne.

I think it might play a role in her remembering her true identity again but there might be something more to it entirely.

[Brazen Beast]

Plus it helps that Sandor basically represents the ultimate bad boy archetype.

Seeing him in a leather jacket with a motorbike now

But yeah, I think Sansa seems prone to romanticise everything, idk if thats normal for teenaged girls I never was one, but I think it's how she copes with how S*itty the world is, making everything pink and sparkly, it's her defense.

[FacelessGirl]

Seeing him in a leather jacket with a motorbike now

But yeah, I think Sansa seems prone to romanticise everything, idk if thats normal for teenaged girls I never was one, but I think it's how she copes with how S*itty the world is, making everything pink and sparkly, it's her defense.

LOL Sandor with a leather jacket and a motorcyle. Does it get more badass?

Well I was a teenaged girl once, and yes it's normal, if later mortifying, to make everything seem more than it is at that age. She'll grow out if it, but for now I feel Sandor is her first sexual attraction as oppose to the childish Golden Prince fantasies. Don't forget she started her period right before the whole "song" debacle.

[littlebird_]

but I think it's how she copes with how S*itty the world is, making everything pink and sparkly, it's her defense.

Well, I hardly think fantasizing about a man who threatened you with a knife is making everything pink and sparkly, if anything it shows how disturbed her views on love and affection is. This is not usual teenage fantasy material nor is it what she used to consider romantic at the beginning.

[Jude-the-Obscure]

I think Sansa doesn't live in the same world as everyone else. She lives in a song, or a series of songs. If something she sees or an experience she has don't fit her song, and threaten to force her to face reality as it is then she edits it. This is probably not deliberate, it happens at a subconscious level. I think she genuinely believes that the incident where Joffrey was injured and Lady was killed is solely down to Arya - that Ary really did attack Joffrey.

The incident with Sandor was strange and troubling. It showed a side of Sandor that isn't purely evil, that made him human rather than a monster. This would sriously rock Sansa's world concept where men are either heros or villians - so she edits the memory to put Sandor into the "tragic hero" mold.

In many ways Sansa is considerably less mature than Arya. She has a very limited range of coping mechanisms, she is not really that in touch with reality, and she has a very irritating habit of placing the responsibility for every she does firmly on the shoulders of someone else. She is still too young to be diagnosed as having a personality disorder, but if she doesn't mature and develop quite a lot, she's pretty much heading for a Narcissistic PD.

[littlespider]

but if she doesn't mature and develop quite a lot, she's pretty much heading for a Narcissistic PD.

I really disagree with you here. One of the hallmarks of narcissism is the inability to feel empathy for other people, and this is a skill that it's often noted Sansa is very good at, and definitely one of the things that draws the Hound to her, as mean as he is to her. (And yes, I think he's quite a meanie, but I may be in the minority here. This is okay.)

My take on the misremembered kiss: Sansa's not completely delusional at this point in the Vale. She's coping with the trauma of her life by adaptively dissociating from everything that "Sansa" was. It seems to me that the misremembered kiss is one of the very small, subtle ways that she claims (subconsciously) some actual control over a moment in her life when she wasn't in control. It also seems to me that the revised memory might be a way that she mentally responds to the fact that she's anything but in control over her sexuality in the Vale, with Littlefinger perving on her, and Robert with his, uh, breast issues. The memory of the kiss (fictional though it may be) actually belongs to her; despite the strange, pseudo-forceful way that she remembers it, it's not part of this new world where bizarre, manipulative displays of sexuality are being imposed on her.

Just my 2 cents.

[littlebird_]

She might develop personality disorders, with what she went through considered I wouldn't be surprised, but narcissism? I don't think so. She's made mistakes in the past but she doesn't really go around killing people or ruining people's lives intentionally and not feeling any guilt over it. She does misremember or replace certain events but again they hardly fit into a fairytale mold, Sandor might have shown some humanity but her experiences with him are hardly something a girl who still believes in fairytales fantasizes over.

The memory of the kiss (fictional though it may be) actually belongs to her; despite the strange, pseudo-forceful way that she remembers it, it's not part of this new world where bizarre, manipulative displays of sexuality are being imposed on her.

I agree, when she starts remembering her night with Tyrion she goes on to replace Tyrion with Sandor. She might have found Sandor's advances more acceptable or desirable but also I think she felt she had some control in her relationship with Sandor whereas with every other men she has been forced into things.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Yeah, I really don't think she has or had crush on Sandor.

I notice one thing: Lysa and Cat both go crazy. Arya is likely going crazy (debatable), Lady Hosteer's wife was Whent, some Whent lady was crazy. Sansa rewrite at least two stories. Follow?

Oh, I never understand why Loras didn't admit to Sansa that he gave her red rose. 3rd story rewritten?

[Lady Winter Rose]

I think Sansa is never going to meet Sandor. Sandor is done and dead, no matter is he still alive. He is not going to have role in story.

[sholtzma]

I think Sansa is never going to meet Sandor. Sandor is done and dead, no matter is he still alive. He is not going to have role in story.

Oh, I respectfully disagree.

[Nausicaä]

Yeah, I really don't think she has or had crush on Sandor.

I notice one thing: Lysa and Cat both go crazy. Arya is likely going crazy (debatable), Lady Hosteer's wife was Whent, some Whent lady was crazy. Sansa rewrite at least two stories. Follow?

Oh, I never understand why Loras didn't admit to Sansa that he gave her red rose. 3rd story rewritten?

He just forgot about giving her the red rose because it didn't mean anything to him. Sansa didn't imagine that since Ned Dayne also remembers it.

I'm really not a fan of the "Sansa is going crazy" idea and I don't think what happened to some of her relatives under the extreme circumstances is any evidence that she is. Arya's situation speaks for itself, Catelyn only went mad after she lost almost her entire family and her last son died before her eyes and Lysa had suffered a series of very traumatic events related to childbirth (forced abortion, five miscarriages, two stillborn children — all while away from her family and with a man that clearly didn't love her) and her only living child she could have lost at any moment because he was so sickly. They would have to be super-human to remain completely fine. And I don't think any of the When ladies were crazy, including Minisa... You might be thinking of Lothstons (another Harrenhall house that used a bat on their arms)?

[littlespider]

I'm really not a fan of the "Sansa is going crazy" idea.

I agree, very very much so. When I say she's dissociating I don't mean to imply that I think she's going nuts, but I think her memory revision/fantasizing of reality is an adaptive response to a crap situation. And let's face it, traumatic experiences aside, human memory is a pretty tricky, unreliable thing sometimes.

Catelyn at the RW? Yes, she lost it, but who wouldn't? In some ways she responded to a threat to her son by getting murderous, then went all self-mutilative when Robb was stabbed. This is justifiable crazy. (Aside from the fact that there are a lot of examples in literature of women injuring themselves out of grief -- and specifically raking themselves with their nails -- when their loved ones die.) But I don't want to get into a omg-was-Cat-a-total-bitch-or-not debate here because it doesn't seem to be the thread for it.

Now Lysa? Batshit insane.

(And sweet. I just realized I'm a freerider now. Movin' up the in the world.)

[Lyndsica]

Can someone tell me which book this is in - her "remembering"?

Are we sure he didn't kiss her? I think I remember that scene doing kind of a fade to black kind of thing and then she wakes up and he's gone...