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Sansa's memory related to Sandor


Lady Winter Rose

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I really disagree with you here. One of the hallmarks of narcissism is the inability to feel empathy for other people, and this is a skill that it's often noted Sansa is very good at, and definitely one of the things that draws the Hound to her, as mean as he is to her. (And yes, I think he's quite a meanie, but I may be in the minority here. This is okay.)

I'm aware of the whole Personality Disorders being deficient in empathy thing. I genuinely can't remmber a scene where Sansa has shown empathy, as opposed to her thinking she has, or remembering that she has. However I know my memory is pretty bad, so if you can show me the actual quotes I'd love to see them.

She might develop personality disorders, with what she went through considered I wouldn't be surprised, but narcissism? I don't think so. She's made mistakes in the past but she doesn't really go around killing people or ruining people's lives intentionally and not feeling any guilt over it.

Umm ... yes she has. Remember the poor butchers son who got sliced in half because Sansa's version of what happened was so far out of touch with what really happened. I think I am being generous in implying its a false memory as opposed to a straight out lie. As far as I can tell she had absolutely no giult over casung that death, and as I've already said she completely blames Arya for the death of Lady. And please remember this happened before the nasty things started happening to her - while she was still floating along in a sweet fairy tale dream on her way to Kings Landing. I can distinctly remember having the urge to drop kick her into the river several times before they even reached KL ;)

I'm not 100% sure about the Narscissistic label for her Personality Disorder as I am out of date with definitions - I still think in DSMIV terms. And I also confess to having limited tolerance for the kind of "porcelain doll" victim PDs who always seem to get the male shrinks to try and rescue the poor sweet darlings ... I think it comes of being female ;)

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Can someone tell me which book this is in - her "remembering"?

Are we sure he didn't kiss her? I think I remember that scene doing kind of a fade to black kind of thing and then she wakes up and he's gone...

In ACOK, Sansa's second to last chapter, he comes to her room and she thinks he is going to kiss her but nothing happens. In ASOS, I am pretty sure that it was her second chapter where she first thinks of him kissing her. The Tyrell girls are happily playing kissing games and desperate to be kissed by a man, and Sansa wonders what they would think if they knew that she had kissed the Hound. :lol:

Incidentally, I think that Sansa has suffered some severe mental trauma but not in the sense that Catelyn and Lysa did. More in the sense of a PTSD version, and I think her mind is altering some of these things to take some control. With the kiss, I totally agree that deciding she's been kissed by someone she wanted to kiss her allows her to reclaim control over her sexuality and a situation that was quite frightening when she was in it. What is more -- that imaginary kiss was her very first kiss. Otherwise, Tyrion would have been her first kiss on the day of her forced wedding. I think that imagining a romantic kiss with a man who came to rescue her in the middle of a battle is a much more pleasant first kiss for her to dwell on. And I thought it was hilarious that she can still remember what it feels like -- she is projecting her burgeoning sense of sexuality onto a man who makes her feel safe.

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Incidentally, I think that Sansa has suffered some severe mental trauma but not in the sense that Catelyn and Lysa did. More in the sense of a PTSD version, and I think her mind is altering some of these things to take some control.

I think that Sansa had a habit of restructuring reality to fit her own version of it long before anything bad happened to her. I also thought she was pretty self obbsessed as well ... see my comments about the so-called "attack" by the butcher's boy for more on this theme.

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I'm aware of the whole Personality Disorders being deficient in empathy thing. I genuinely can't remmber a scene where Sansa has shown empathy, as opposed to her thinking she has, or remembering that she has. However I know my memory is pretty bad, so if you can show me the actual quotes I'd love to see them.

She saved Dontos' life. In the sept on the night of the Battle of the Blackwater, she was praying for all the people who would die that night. She displayed great empathy to Sandor Clegane when he told her how his face was burned.

Umm ... yes she has. Remember the poor butchers son who got sliced in half because Sansa's version of what happened was so far out of touch with what really happened.

You may want to consider rereading. The butcher's boy was probably already dead when Sansa prevaricated in the courtroom, and Sandor forgot his cell phone in Cersei's tent so no one was able to call him to give him any orders based on that. :rolleyes:

She shouldn't feel any guilt over causing that death because she had absolutely nothing to do with it.

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Ah well, we are going to have to agree to disagree ;) My reading of it is that she didn't say anything until directly asked - left it too late to help even if she wanted to prevent bad things happening to her sister or her sisters friend - and then she simply lied. But I can see how this is an interpretation of the passages, and they could be interpreted differently.

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Sansa may have a personality disorder and she may not. Relying on fantasy is a common method of escapism, and Sansa has had practice in that. She's lived in the remote wilderness of the North all her life, where the worlds and characters of places such as King's Landing aren't seen as often. She's been told countless stories that have only enhanced her fantasy world of sparkly knights and golden princes. Come to King's Landing, not only is her Golden Prince the Prince of Evil, and has her ass kicked repeatedly, I'm sure she's had a major dose of culture shock wrapped up in a reality check. I feel Sansa has realized the world isn't a song, but you just can't tell someone to turn off their imagination, especially if its the only way they know how to cope with grief and homesickness.

I really think Sandor represented Sansa's awakening and perhaps maturing sexuality. Think about it, he's not at all the vision of comeliness something Sansa puts a lot into when it comes to men,he rejects the knighthood and all it stands for, and he has a reputation for being a pretty dangerous man. Add that with him being one of the few people in her life to actually try and make her see passed her world of songs and shiny castles. He's crude, ugly, deadly but damn is he honest. And Sansa appreciated that on some level, hence why she has a crush. :)

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I think this all goes back to her not having the wolf anymore. The kids who are left (with POVs) that have wolves all have some sort of latent connection to the wolves.

although we only know of Bran actively warging into the wolf

Sansa doesn't have the wolf anymore and since she's lost that connection, she also has somewhat lost touch with herself as well.

For example, Arya can try hard at her Faceless Man training and give up herself as she's instructed by the priests, but it's not completely happening since her wolf is still alive and she frequently roams the riverlands in Nymeria's body at night in her dreams.

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Ah well, we are going to have to agree to disagree ;) My reading of it is that she didn't say anything until directly asked - left it too late to help even if she wanted to prevent bad things happening to her sister or her sisters friend - and then she simply lied. But I can see how this is an interpretation of the passages, and they could be interpreted differently.

Sorry to butt in into your conversation, but I really don't understand this. We know from Ned that she told him the whole truth the night Arya, Nymeria and Mycah ran off. That was the only information that could affect her sister or her sister's friend (since if they did come to harm, it would be when they were found) and it was the truth. It didn't actually affect anything because the Lannister search parties received their orders from Cersei, who only cared about Joffrey's version of the events, not Sansa's... but that's not Sansa's fault. At the king's audience, Sansa indeed didn't speak until she was asked and then didn't tell the truth right away, but how could that affect anything? Arya was already as safe as she was going to be and Mycah was already dead at the beginning of the audience.

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I'm aware of the whole Personality Disorders being deficient in empathy thing. I genuinely can't remmber a scene where Sansa has shown empathy, as opposed to her thinking she has, or remembering that she has. However I know my memory is pretty bad, so if you can show me the actual quotes I'd love to see them.

Umm ... yes she has. Remember the poor butchers son who got sliced in half because Sansa's version of what happened was so far out of touch with what really happened. I think I am being generous in implying its a false memory as opposed to a straight out lie. As far as I can tell she had absolutely no giult over casung that death, and as I've already said she completely blames Arya for the death of Lady. And please remember this happened before the nasty things started happening to her - while she was still floating along in a sweet fairy tale dream on her way to Kings Landing. I can distinctly remember having the urge to drop kick her into the river several times before they even reached KL ;)

I'm not 100% sure about the Narscissistic label for her Personality Disorder as I am out of date with definitions - I still think in DSMIV terms. And I also confess to having limited tolerance for the kind of "porcelain doll" victim PDs who always seem to get the male shrinks to try and rescue the poor sweet darlings ... I think it comes of being female ;)

The NPD diagnosis in DSM-V has been eliminated and many of the symptoms have been merged under antisocial personality disorder or BPD (someone else help me here? don't have it in front of me).

Re: Sansa's ability to feel empathy:

--trying to save Sir Dontos, at expense of herself

--convincing Joff to give $$ to lady with dead baby just before king's landing riot.

--telling potential bad rapists that she "didn't have any bread" during king's landing riot (as opposed to "f(&^ u! don't f#!$ing rape me!")

--feeling/praying for countless men out there dying during BB.

--"some instinct" convincing her to touch crying hound's face during BBB (Blackater Battle Bedroom) scene.

--wanting to warn Marg about Joff's evilness prior to marrying him

--working to take care of pitiful little Lord Robert.

Any other examples, folks? I'm three sheets to the wind right now and can't remember any more.

Yes, a definite point against her is that she doesn't seem to be completely with it re: Mycah and the full responsibility for her omission of the truth (not a false memory) during the episode at the Trident. However, if we're going to start labeling her NPD or BPD then we've got to fully admit that Arya is significantly more symptomatic of these problems than Sansa is. (Btw, it annoys me to armchair-pathologize these characters; this is why I'm a little stubborn about throwing around the diagnostic terms.)

And seconded whatever Alexia said above about why she's misremembering the 'kiss' as she is. As I said, it's all about taking control of her own experiences: she didn't have any control in real life so she's claiming it in her mind.

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Sandor forgot his cell phone in Cersei's tent so no one was able to call him to give him any orders based on that.

Ha!

text transcript follows:

Cersei: airhead strk grl hz 0 mmry of fite by trdnt. no need 2 kl butchers boi k?

Hound: FUCK bggr alrdy off'd hm. sory bout that.

Cersei: lulz. no prob will make me luk mor bada$$.

Hound: k. BRB.

(apologies for multiple posts. Still trying to figure out multi-quote.)

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In this respect, I also find it interesting to compare the incident with Joff and Mycah. When she's asked to tell this story in front of Robert and the court, Sansa says she 'doesn't remember'. Later, though, when the stakes are far less, she seems to misremember this as well, suggesting that she recalls a version more in line with Joff's. Now, at this point there's actually little gain to her in this, but I do wonder if what GRRM is trying to tell us is that Sansa is inclined to misremember, or even revise her memories, and whether that might become important.

ETA - arguably it's already important, of course, if you read her scenes with LF in AFFC.

I admit that I had never noticed this, and it certainly gives this "memory" an opportunity to have more import than simply attributing it to romanticizing on Sansa's part (which I admit had been my assumption).

I'm going to have to go re-read. thanks for the insight.

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Ha!

text transcript follows:

Cersei: airhead strk grl hz 0 mmry of fite by trdnt. no need 2 kl butchers boi k?

Hound: FUCK bggr alrdy off'd hm. sory bout that.

Cersei: lulz. no prob will make me luk mor bada$$.

Hound: k. BRB.

(apologies for multiple posts. Still trying to figure out multi-quote.)

that's hilarious. :cheers:

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littlespider has already provided a list of times when Sansa has shown emphaty and has been nice to people so I won't get into that.

I'm really not a fan of the "Sansa is going crazy" idea and I don't think what happened to some of her relatives under the extreme circumstances is any evidence that she is.

I agree, there is definitely a case of PTSD going on and there is also an aspect of trying to control the events that happened to her by remembering them differently but so far Sandor kissing her is the main and most repetitive one so she's not going around reinterpreting everything.

I really think Sandor represented Sansa's awakening and perhaps maturing sexuality. Think about it, he's not at all the vision of comeliness something Sansa puts a lot into when it comes to men,he rejects the knighthood and all it stands for, and he has a reputation for being a pretty dangerous man. Add that with him being one of the few people in her life to actually try and make her see passed her world of songs and shiny castles. He's crude, ugly, deadly but damn is he honest. And Sansa appreciated that on some level, hence why she has a crush. :)

I agree, even though I do not ship Sandor/Sansa, I think she does consider him to be the person who was honest with her and she does feel safe with him and that's why she is replacing her memories of sexual encounters with other men with images of Sandor. When she thinks of her wedding night with Tyrion his image is replaced by Sandor, she is trying to replace the feeling of complete helplessness she had in those situations.

The main problem for me in the discussions about why she is doing this is how this will be important? I don't think GRRM is putting this in just so Sandor/Sansa have some sort of romantic reunion (they might, they might not I am not arguing for or against it) but I don't think he will put something like this into the text just for that purpose. I think it relates to how she is losing her identity right now, just as Arya has her needle and wolf dreams, Sansa has her cloak and Sandor dreams to bring her back to memories of being Sansa Stark. Of course there might be another reason I have not figured out yet.

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littlespider has already provided a list of times when Sansa has shown emphaty and has been nice to people so I won't get into that.

I agree, there is definitely a case of PTSD going on and there is also an aspect of trying to control the events that happened to her by remembering them differently but so far Sandor kissing her is the main and most repetitive one so she's not going around reinterpreting everything.

I agree, even though I do not ship Sandor/Sansa, I think she does consider him to be the person who was honest with her and she does feel safe with him and that's why she is replacing her memories of sexual encounters with other men with images of Sandor. When she thinks of her wedding night with Tyrion his image is replaced by Sandor, she is trying to replace the feeling of complete helplessness she had in those situations.

The main problem for me in the discussions about why she is doing this is how this will be important? I don't think GRRM is putting this in just so Sandor/Sansa have some sort of romantic reunion (they might, they might not I am not arguing for or against it) but I don't think he will put something like this into the text just for that purpose. I think it relates to how she is losing her identity right now, just as Arya has her needle and wolf dreams, Sansa has her cloak and Sandor dreams to bring her back to memories of being Sansa Stark. Of course there might be another reason I have not figured out yet.

I get what you're saying. I was a SanSan shipper in the beginning until I realize that's not what kind of series this is. But hey I'm still not against it. Once the healing starts, who knows what can happen.

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I wondered about that too. I was like ' there's no way that happened, I would have remembered even if it hadn't been a while since I read it.' But imagine some drunken, battle crazed man charges into your room and puts a knife to your throat. You have no idea what the hell is going to happen or you do but are trying not to think about it because it's probably nothing good. Even if you come out unscathed there's a very high chance of your mind reinventing some events to make the memory less traumatic for you. It's not just in Sansa, it's in every human being. Some people have developed complete amnesia about horrible things that have happened to them because it's the mind's way of trying to protect the psyche. I think that's what happened in Sansa's case. Then go and add all the other terrible mess that's happened to her.

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Does she still have the white cloak? I thought that got left behind in KL.

Then I was wrong about the cloak :D but the point was that the memories of Sandor are some sort of links to who she was before and it anchors her to Sansa Stark.

I get what you're saying. I was a SanSan shipper in the beginning until I realize that's not what kind of series this is. But hey I'm still not against it. Once the healing starts, who knows what can happen.

It might happen but that wasn't my point, what I mean is I don't think GRRM is writing these memories just to have shipper moments in the story and the fact that they are important has to be something more than its implications for the relationship and that Sansa might have some PTSD caused crush. If its only a crush surely there are other ways to demonstrate it than have her misremember events and if the only purpose is to show that Sansa can not forget Sandor again there are other ways to show it, hence I can not see it being only about clarifying Sansa's feelings on the matter. GRRM mentioned that this will be important in the future and I think what he is referring to is not solely that she's misremembering events with Sandor, but also that she's misremembering. Of course, like I said I might be wrong and reading too much in between the lines and this might just be written in to clarify Sansa's feelings on Sandor.

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Then I was wrong about the cloak :D but the point was that the memories of Sandor are some sort of links to who she was before and it anchors her to Sansa Stark.

It might happen but that wasn't my point, what I mean is I don't think GRRM is writing these memories just to have shipper moments in the story and the fact that they are important has to be something more than its implications for the relationship and that Sansa might have some PTSD caused crush. If its only a crush surely there are other ways to demonstrate it than have her misremember events and if the only purpose is to show that Sansa can not forget Sandor again there are other ways to show it, hence I can not see it being only about clarifying Sansa's feelings on the matter. GRRM mentioned that this will be important in the future and I think what he is referring to is not solely that she's misremembering events with Sandor, but also that she's misremembering. Of course, like I said I might be wrong and reading too much in between the lines and this might just be written in to clarify Sansa's feelings on Sandor.

No, no I got your point and I agreed with it. Sorry about the whole SanSan shipping line, sometimes I can't help myself. ;) But I do understand what you mean and if GRRM meant for Sansa's misremembering to be of importance I can't wait to see where he takes it. Which brings me to my question: Sansa's in the Vale and if Sandor is the gravedigger he's not too far from Saltpans which, according to the last map I saw, is not very far from the Vale. There is a chance they may see each other again. What do you think?

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No, no I got your point and I agreed with it. Sorry about the whole SanSan shipping line, sometimes I can't help myself. ;) But I do understand what you mean and if GRRM meant for Sansa's misremembering to be of importance I can't wait to see where he takes it. Which brings me to my question: Sansa's in the Vale and if Sandor is the gravedigger he's not too far from Saltpans which, according to the last map I saw, is not very far from the Vale. There is a chance they may see each other again. What do you think?

Sorry then I think I misunderstood you :D The shipping part I feel might be there if one wants to see it but I keep trying to see something more in the story or maybe hoping for it since its not GRRM's style.

I am torn about the Sandor/Sansa meeting up again possibility. I am not sure Sandor's story is finished but I don't know how much of it directly relates to Sansa anymore. I don't really even think Sansa's own development needs Sandor to be present anymore, the memories of him are significant somehow but I don't think he needs to be present for the rest of her journey. All of Sansa's men, in their complete inappropriateness, have also been important to her personal growth in some capacity and I think with respect to that Sandor has played his role, he has thought her that knights aren't real and the people she might least expect might turn out to be more decent than the handsome knights but I am not sure what purpose their meeting again would add to that development.

But like I said, I am not a shipper so I might miss signs or hints that indicate that there has to be more to the story. To me it seems like they both affected each other and changed each other and now they have to make their way in the world having learned valuable lessons from each other.

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