Sansa's memory related to Sandor

[littlespider]

Funniest. Post. Ever.

Thanks! We should have more speculative ASoIaF convos via text message. Maybe I will start a new thread, for fun.

I failed on the multiquote again so here's a quote from someone above:

"The thing is, her perception of Sandor is totally different depending on whether or not he's actually in the room. It's only when he's not around that she thinks about him saving her, wishing Ser Dontos was more like him, preferring him to the other KG, etc. Every time they run into each other she gets a reminder that he's kind of an asshole. She doesn't have that after he runs off so there's nothing to bring her romanticising back down to earth."

This is right. On the Unpopular Opinions thread I voiced the Unpopular Opinion that Sandor is actually something of a giant douche to Sansa in King's Landing. Yes, he saves her life and (somewhat pusillanimously) tries to keep her from getting the crap beaten out of her, but as the poster above said, he's also an asshole (though an honest one). But the thing is that everyone around her is like asshole to the Nth degree, so his slightly less than horrible asshole-ness makes a big impression on her. So here's another take (besides the ideas above about the memory issue being a response to her lack of control, which I think are spot-on):

Sansa's like that kid on the playground that gets beaten up on all the time by all the meanies. Then a kid comes along who's not really friendly, but doesn't exactly beat the nerdy kid up, and the nerdy kid is all "OMFG YOU ARE MY BEST! FRIEND! EVAR! AND I LOF YOU!" because nerdy bullied kid really does not have much of a reasonable perspective on friendliness/kindness anymore. So I think you're right about all the romanticising that she does off screen. Though it must be said that I admit that Sansa's a perceptive one and I suspect that in addition to the above socialized response to her situation, she really does see right through him when he's in his "Rar! Angry! Hate and kill everybody!" moments.

[brashcandy]

I think Sansa's mismemory of the kiss and the Hound's deep feelings of remorse that he expresses to Arya right before he passes out may have some something to do with wiping the slate clean between them. It may not mean, given what I'm sure is GRRM's aversion to doing the expected, that she necessarily wanted him to kiss her or now longs for it (although I do hope so!)but it may signify her growth into adulthood, in the sense that this fantasy of the Hound's kiss is the one that has effectively killed all her other silly, childish fantasies and signals a more mature development. (If she can actually think that something like this happened without freaking out, then the Sansa we once knew is really disappearing)

I don't know how the misremembering would be important in terms of actually driving plot events, but it is certainly intriguing to think about. It would be too easy for her and the Hound to have some "oh yes you did!/No I didn't!" back and forth, so outside of this possibility I am completely lost.

Back to my original point, now that Sandor has realised just how awful in many ways he was to Sansa, and is obviously attempting some absolution for it, and Sansa is trying but failing so far to put him out of her mind, it could point to a pretty strong connection between the two that is far from being closed. If they can both begin to see one another as worthy of love and respect, and not simply Joffrey's dog and a little, foolish bird, then we may get something real developing between the two. I would argue that this has already begun, so now in some way they have to reconnect for the rest to be fleshed out.

[littlebird_]

It may not mean, given what I'm sure is GRRM's aversion to doing the expected, that she necessarily wanted him to kiss her or now longs for it (although I do hope so!)but it may signify her growth into adulthood, in the sense that this fantasy of the Hound's kiss is the one that has effectively killed all her other silly, childish fantasies and signals a more mature development. (If she can actually think that something like this happened without freaking out, then the Sansa we once knew is really disappearing)

This is an interesting perspective, if put in the duality of Alayne/Sansa I wonder how it plays out, the way she remembers the kiss and the events around it Sandor becomes a man who left her a bloody cloak and left her, in that scenario maybe it is something that fuels her bitterness towards men because she feels abandoned by the one man she thought was safe.

With respect to plot development, I expect it to play into the Alayne/Sansa duality somehow but I am not sure exactly how it is happening, as something that keeps bringing her back to Sansa's memories or perhaps as pointed out as something signaling the change in her attitudes towards romance but the memories of the Hound and the details she's adding to them seems to be crucial parts of whether Sansa remains Sansa or changes into someone different. Perhaps that is where the next encounter with Sandor can serve the plot, through that encounter we will be able to see how Sansa has changed.

[Starbird]

I think Sansa's belief that she was kissed highlights the difference between what Sansa wants and what Sansa gets, and leads to Sansa redefining what she wants.

Wants: to marry a handsome prince - Gets: Joffrey, the prince of darkness

Wants: to be all she can be in terms of courtly manners - Gets: screwed over by Cersei when she tries to be the dutiful daughter-in-law-to-be

Wants: to live in a world of handsome, gallant knights - Gets: the crap beat out of her by the Kingsguard

Wants: to get out of one-horse Winterfell - Gets: the obliteration of her family and the destruction of her home

After all this disappointment, Sansa has figured out that what she wants doesn't mean much. It's everyone else's wants that come first. (* She also has no means of getting what she wants, see below.)

I think it's shortly after Blackwater that she starts focusing on the fact that no one wants HER, they only want her claim on Winterfell. So she has a new want: to be loved for herself.

Sandor, while scary and a jerk at times, hasn't asked her for anything but a song. Yeah, he may want more and, yeah, he may not ask nicely, but at least he's not trying to use her for his own profit. Sandor expressed an interest in her and offered to protect her. What did he have to gain? Nothing but trouble, expense, and the wrath of the Lannisters. After all the crap Sansa's been through, that's got to be appealing.

Later, though, she says that he took a kiss and a song and left her with only a bloody cloak. This is another moment of redefining wants for her. Chivalric symbols are no longer going to cut it. Same with Dontos giving her the hairnet when what she really needed was a ship. So, Sandor may have kissed her but what did that get her? Nothing. She has more realistic needs now. If she didn't believe the kiss happened, where would she be? I think she has to believe in the kiss in order to evaluate its worth and ultimately reject it as lacking. It's important to her growth.

So, 3 thoughts:

1) a kiss is just a kiss. Sansa's needs have changed from the romantic to the realistic, and it's her belief in the kiss that moves her forward.

2) the kiss is a foil to Loras's red rose. Sansa was chagrined to learn the rose that meant everything to her meant nothing to Loras. As such, the value of Sandor's kiss is tempered by Sansa's maturity.

3) GRRM is using her as an unreliable narrator (it is known) and the kiss is a red herring. We're so distracted by this damn kiss-that-never-happened that I can't help but feel that we're not paying attention to something we should be. What, I don't know, but something! We know Sansa's wrong about the kiss but what else is she wrong about?

* Now that Sansa's under the tuteledge of master manipulator Littlefinger, I think she's learning the skills she'll need to get what she wants. I don't think she'll become ruthless but her maturity, her knowledge of the world as it really is, and LF's instruction on recognizing people's desires and motivations, coupled with her inherent kindness, will give her an ability to rally people around her. She's not afraid of speaking up in a crowd (in the Red Keep? before one of the battles while dining with the women; during the riot even as they would've dragged her off her horse), she's active in trying to be a force for good (having Joffrey spare Dontos and giving coins to the woman with the dead baby), and she puts aside her own fear to comfort others (Sandor and Sweet Robin). Her only gross misstep is thinking Sandor kissed her. In light of everything else, I'm not sure the kiss is really that important. Now that I'm thinking about it, Sansa is really becoming a knight. All she's lacking is strength and skill-at-arms, and Sandor's got that in spades.

[Été]

3) GRRM is using her as an unreliable narrator (it is known) and the kiss is a red herring. We're so distracted by this damn kiss-that-never-happened that I can't help but feel that we're not paying attention to something we should be. What, I don't know, but something! We know Sansa's wrong about the kiss but what else is she wrong about?

Good post. GRRM said it's something that most readers may not even have picked up on. The question is whether the actual scenario Sansa misremembered is significant. Is the message that there's something funny going on with her and Sandor Clegane, or simply that she has a tendency to get things wrong?

[Starbird]

Good post. GRRM said it's something that most readers may not even have picked up on. The question is whether the actual scenario Sansa misremembered is significant. Is the message that there's something funny going on with her and Sandor Clegane, or simply that she has a tendency to get things wrong?

Thank you. :-) Can you point to where he said this? I don't doubt you - I'm simply interested in reading it.

[Alexia]

Thank you. :-) Can you point to where he said this? I don't doubt you - I'm simply interested in reading it.

Bride of Fire already posted this in the thread.

Anyway I think it is important to remember what GRRM has said on this matter. He's been quoted on it several times but this one is particularly relevant as it clears up a few conflicting views here.

"The Lion's Paw / Lion's Tooth business, on the other hand, is intentional. A small touch of the unreliable narrator. I was trying to establish that the memories of my viewpoint characters are not infallible. Sansa is simply remembering it wrong. A very minor thing (you are the only one to catch it to date), but it was meant to set the stage for a much more important lapse in memory. You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom... but if you look at the scene, he never does. That will eventually mean something, but just now it's a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on."

GRRM is clearly saying that it is nit simply the misremembering itself, but that specific false memory that is important.

[Été]

Thanks! We should have more speculative ASoIaF convos via text message. Maybe I will start a new thread, for fun.

Sandor: Hello little bird :)

Sansa: Hey y smily face this time + no xx??

Sandor: Lol wot xx?

Sansa: Lyk Blackwater

Sandor: Ummm neva text u @ blackwater, g2g c ya

Too much?

[littlebird_]

3) GRRM is using her as an unreliable narrator (it is known) and the kiss is a red herring. We're so distracted by this damn kiss-that-never-happened that I can't help but feel that we're not paying attention to something we should be. What, I don't know, but something! We know Sansa's wrong about the kiss but what else is she wrong about?

Very insightful post starbird :D Your third point was something I was actually considering myself. She's our only POV into what is happening in the Vale, is there something she is telling us differently, is she adding events or omitting events from her thoughts?

But as others have pointed out apparently it has to do more about misremembering that specific incident than anything else.

I think she has to believe in the kiss in order to evaluate its worth and ultimately reject it as lacking. It's important to her growth.

I agree, I think it is important for her personal growth, she remembers something that can be interpreted as being romantic but her reaction to it is not the reaction of a romantic but someone who realizes that he kissed her but that brought her no advantages so what was it worth? Nothing. That is a contrast from the Sansa of AGoT who would have daydreamed about a kiss, this time she remembers the kiss but thinks of it bitterly and as something that was ultimately no use to her.

[Starbird]

Bride of Fire already posted this in the thread.

Wow, I'm not sure how I missed that. Thanks for putting it in front of me!

[Alexia]

That is a contrast from the Sansa of AGoT who would have daydreamed about a kiss, this time she remembers the kiss but thinks of it bitterly and as something that was ultimately no use to her.

I am not sure that somebody who can *still remember what it felt like* is thinking of it bitterly. I think she regrets not leaving with him.

Deciphering the illiteracy inherent in text speak is starting to hurt my brain. :lol:

[littlespider]

Sandor: Hello little bird :)

Sansa: Hey y smily face this time + no xx??

Sandor: Lol wot xx?

Sansa: Lyk Blackwater

Sandor: Ummm neva text u @ blackwater, g2g c ya

Too much?

I just spat up my soda. hi-frakking-larious. I want to quote you on the new thread but am not sure how!

[littlebird_]

I am not sure that somebody who can *still remember what it felt like* is thinking of it bitterly. I think she regrets not leaving with him.

I am not sure she regrets not leaving with him and she might remember the kiss fondly and as having enjoyed it but still have bitter feelings on how it actually led nowhere but a bloddy cloak.

[Alexia]

I am not sure she regrets not leaving with him and she might remember the kiss fondly and as having enjoyed it but still have bitter feelings on how it actually led nowhere but a bloddy cloak.

At the beginning of ASOS (I think it was her first chapter) she thought on how she sometimes stayed awake at night, wondering if she made the right choice not to go with him.

[littlebird_]

At the beginning of ASOS (I think it was her first chapter) she thought on how she sometimes stayed awake at night, wondering if she made the right choice not to go with him.

Considering her situation she would wonder but I am not sure it constitutes a definite statement as to how she would react if she had the choice again and regretting not going with him.

But then again we are probably looking at this relationship from two different interpretive stances :D

[Été]

I am not sure she regrets not leaving with him and she might remember the kiss fondly and as having enjoyed it but still have bitter feelings on how it actually led nowhere but a bloddy cloak.

I thought she was sad about the whole affair and felt she'd missed an opportunity, but I didn't read the bloody cloak line as a bitter one. ("Great, I'm gonna have to get this dry-cleaned..." :rolleyes: ) Not sure I take anything from it reall; they've both got tons of knighthood-related baggage and the Hound ripping off his cloak when he leaves Sansa is all rather poetic.

[Alexia]

Considering her situation she would wonder but I am not sure it constitutes a definite statement as to how she would react if she had the choice again and regretting not going with him.

But then again we are probably looking at this relationship from two different interpretive stances :D

I'm not even sure it takes a romantic interpretation of the relationship to think she regrets things. If she left with him, she wouldn't have been married to Tyrion, kidnapped by LF, or framed for Joffrey's murder. And he wanted her for herself, and not for her claim (something she definitely is bitter about).

Whether or not we as readers feel she made the right decision (based on our interpretations of Sandor and the relationship), I always thought that Sansa herself regretted not leaving with him.

Incidentally, I do think she made the right decision based on her age and other factors at the time. :)

[littlebird_]

I'm not even sure it takes a romantic interpretation of the relationship to think she regrets things. If she left with him, she wouldn't have been married to Tyrion, kidnapped by LF, or framed for Joffrey's murder. And he wanted her for herself, and not for her claim (something she definitely is bitter about).

Whether or not we as readers feel she made the right decision (based on our interpretations of Sandor and the relationship), I always thought that Sansa herself regretted not leaving with him.

Incidentally, I do think she made the right decision based on her age and other factors at the time. :)

Maybe then I am bringing my own stance on the relationship into my interpretation of events :dunno:

I might reread her AFFC chapters to see if I can get another perspective of her memories.

[Starbird]

I thought she was sad about the whole affair and felt she'd missed an opportunity, but I didn't read the bloody cloak line as a bitter one. ("Great, I'm gonna have to get this dry-cleaned..." :rolleyes: ) Not sure I take anything from it reall; they've both got tons of knighthood-related baggage and the Hound ripping off his cloak when he leaves Sansa is all rather poetic.

Agreed. I always have to laugh when I think of that scene and his opening line was the lame, "I knew you'd come." Gee, really? You knew she'd come back to her room? Good call, slick. Such a way with the ladies. :rolleyes:

Whether or not we as readers feel she made the right decision (based on our interpretations of Sandor and the relationship), I always thought that Sansa herself regretted not leaving with him.

Incidentally, I do think she made the right decision based on her age and other factors at the time. :)

I agree that Sansa herself regretted not leaving with him but I'm not sure it would have made a difference either way. If she'd left with him and they'd gotten caught, so what? Sandor would've been executed for sure but Sansa would still be a valuable hostage. She probably would've lost her castle-wandering privileges but I don't think the Lannisters would've killed or tortured her. A lesser woman would claim she was abducted but I don't think Sansa's situation would've changed that much if she'd attempted an escape. If they'd gotten away clean, I think Sandor would've taken her somewhere away from the fighting and kept her safe. Of course then she wouldn't have ended up in LF's clutches with Winterfell back within her reach. <shrug> I dunno. I wanted her to go with him but I trust the Hound more than I trust the Lannisters.

[Été]

Agreed. I always have to laugh when I think of that scene and his opening line was the lame, "I knew you'd come." Gee, really? You knew she'd come back to her room? Good call, slick. Such a way with the ladies. :rolleyes:

The real facepalm was his "get your coat love, I've got a knife" moment. I'm in the precious minority that think the Hound's intentions were actually fairly decent when he wanted to steal Sansa away, but he was definitely setting off rape alarms with that crap.

I agree that Sansa herself regretted not leaving with him but I'm not sure it would have made a difference either way. If she'd left with him and they'd gotten caught, so what? Sandor would've been executed for sure but Sansa would still be a valuable hostage. She probably would've lost her castle-wandering privileges but I don't think the Lannisters would've killed or tortured her. A lesser woman would claim she was abducted but I don't think Sansa's situation would've changed that much if she'd attempted an escape. If they'd gotten away clean, I think Sandor would've taken her somewhere away from the fighting and kept her safe. Of course then she wouldn't have ended up in LF's clutches with Winterfell back within her reach. <shrug> I dunno. I wanted her to go with him but I trust the Hound more than I trust the Lannisters.

It would have been dumb for her to have even entertained the idea at the time. Some huge drunk dude turns up in your room covered in blood and says he'll look after you? Riiiight.