Asian Fever II

[Stego]

God damn you half-Japanese girls.

ETA: Yags would never start a fire and stand back to watch it burn.

[S John]

Fairly recently I was occasionally banging a lady of South Asian heritage who, to my amusement, told me that I was exotic. To which I replied - you're god damn right I am.

[zollo]

Fairly recently I was occasionally banging a lady of South Asian heritage who, to my amusement, told me that I was exotic. To which I replied - you're god damn right I am.

Has the lady in question actually ever been to Virginia?!

[Addien]

I wouldn’t say your post was TMI, I just think it had nothing to do with the conversation he created, especially judging by the comments from boarders whose tenure here is longer than mine regarding the nature of his responses in a previous thread (and from this one, post ten in particular).

If I started a conversation about Jungle Fever and mentioned that it pisses me off every time Motumbo or Marquise stole another one of my sweet, all-American Caucasian women, I would hope everyone would call me out on it. Even if the monster-fuck of my life was a black chick.

I do, however, agree that racial stereotypes as a singular or primary driver of sexual attraction is likely to be an unhealthy foundation to build on.

I'd argue that because Yags doesn't accept chauvinist arguments about "preferences" at face value, that he is getting that treatment, not that he honestly gives a shit about anyone "stealing" his women (itself a silly accusation with little evidence.)

Race is a complete and total social construct, arguing specific attraction to one race above others is itself problematic (although claiming to be "color-blind" is just as facile.)

[Nichole]

Fairly recently I was occasionally banging a lady of South Asian heritage who, to my amusement, told me that I was exotic. To which I replied - you're god damn right I am.

Well, it isn't everyday you meet an otter as articulate as you.

[Shryke]

My problem is that "yellow fever" is so poorly defined. Does any non Asian man that prefers Asian woman have yellow fever? What is "yellow fever" to you Yags?

I don't think anyone is claiming that sexual exploitation of minorities is not real. Just that looking at every interracial couple and claiming that one of the partners has some kind of sickness is wrong, and that they should be looked on a case by case basis.

No one has claimed this though.

Yellow Fever has pretty much always meant "people who are obsessed with asian people as sexual objects because of their asianess".

Or, essentially, the fetishization of asianess.

[Addien]

I mean, I've met Yags a bunch of times, I like him, and I don't think he has a chip on his shoulder about this; but I do think he started this thread (and the last one) kind of to create drama. The first one got extremely contentious within half a page, to the point where I think it's fairly clear he's shooting for getting folks riled up. And it can be/is kind of funny... but it can also be kind of irritating.

Yeah, I can't defend him there. Dude loves drama. Lol

[S John]

Has the lady in question actually ever been to Virginia?!

Hell, she grew up in the Atlanta area - you'd think she'd have seen a few other fine specimens of my esteemed Scots-Irish/German pedigree. I assume that perhaps I was the first person she's dated outside of her own ethnic background? I never asked, honestly. Obviously that's an a-typical comment to be directed at a white guy in the United States - my point is simply that 'exotic' is all in where you're standing.

[Spider From Mars]

I'd argue that because Yags doesn't accept chauvinist arguments about "preferences" at face value, that he is getting that treatment, not that he honestly gives a shit about anyone "stealing" his women (itself a silly accusation with little evidence.)

Since I am woefully without the experience of his cock inside me, I am going to assume that you know him better than me. But, if you take into consideration his tone, and the anecdotes of long-time posters in regards to his history on the specific topic of Yellow Fever, it is not impossible to come to the conclusion that he is 1) Asian and 2) Has a chip on his shoulder about Yellow Fever (I was not alone in expressing that sentiment here).

[The Blue Bard]

I'd argue that because Yags doesn't accept chauvinist arguments about "preferences" at face value, that he is getting that treatment, not that he honestly gives a shit about anyone "stealing" his women (itself a silly accusation with little evidence.)

Race is a complete and total social construct, arguing specific attraction to one race above others is itself problematic (although claiming to be "color-blind" is just as facile.)

I don't see anything inherently problematic in finding particular physical characteristics consistently attractive, although if we're dealing with an insistence on cultural stereotypes as part of that package,that's a different business

[Yagathai]

Yeah, I can't defend him there. Dude loves drama. Lol

Dammit! My alts are supposed to defend me!

[TerraPrime]

Holy shit, I'd turn for that guy. Also, anyone getting a vibe that Yagathai has a chip on his shoulder over this?

Is the OP an Asian man? Because it sounds a lot like he’s pissed ‘cause whitey is stealing his action.

I see.

Re: S John

But, in this day and age, in modern America it is completely unfair to make that call on anything other than a case by case basis. If you do not absolutely know that untoward objectification is going on, then .. well, you don't know. And even then, what if the objectified party knows it and likes it? Since I'm not an insider in that relationship, who am I to say?

I don't think anyone is advocating that we presume all Caucasian-Asian pairings are results of racial stereotypes and exotification of the minority. I don't even think that Yags had said that. What he had pointed out, however, are concrete examples of when it does happen. Perhaps this specific personal ad is fake. Who knows. But does anyone really doubt that what was described in that ad exists? Really? So yes, not all pairings suffer from this, for instance I don't believe that my relationship does, but this is a real phenomenon and it deserves to be raised and addressed.

As for the second part, I agree that it is not my part to say anything about a relationship as long as the two adults are both consenting. If a person likes to be objectified, then s/he is lucky that s/he finds someone to objectify them. However, as a social phenomenon, I think it is something that we can all comment on. We shouldn't comment on one specific relationship, as it's none of our business, but as a social reality, it's something we can all have an opinion on. Let me use the example of, say, conservative Christians where the women are in totally submissive roles. It's a consenting relationship, is it not? Yet, is it out of place for us to say that we find the kind of power imbalance that promulgates gender power dysfunction to be unsavory and undesirable? Or do you find that to be off-limit as a topic, as well?

All I'm saying is that coming across as bitter that some white guys are out there looking to plow Asian girls - is that fundamentally any better than, say, if I were upset that some black dudes are out there plowing white girls? I think if I were to make a thread lamenting that there are some white chicks out there banging black guys - the board would collectively drop-kick that nonsense right out of here and give me a solid scolding on a personal level while they're at it. I mean seriously can you picture that on page 1 of general chatter - "You know what I hate? (subtitle: black dudes that dig white chicks!)" Probably wouldn't get too many +1's for that OP.

I guess it depends on why you're upset that a black guy is banging a white woman. Is it about a particular case? Is it about the general phenomenon? What about the phenomenon that upsets you? etc. Some criticisms and interpretations are legitimate fodder for discussion, and some are not.

In matters of the heart and the genitalia, you gotta let people do what they do. As long as both parties are consenting adults, I'm not going to have anything to say about it.

And I believe that I've said as much.

Still, let me put it to you this way. In 1700s China, feet-binding where a woman's feet is broken and then wrapped tightly to cause severe deformity was seen as highly erotic and desirable. Many women strived for that feature and willingly subjected themselves to that treatment. If the trend were to somehow resurface here in the U.S. today, and there are men and women who willingly go into that, is that something that we would say, "oh, on the matter of the genital and heart, you just got to let people be"?

[Eponine]

Yellow Fever has pretty much always meant "people who are obsessed with asian people as sexual objects because of their asianess".

Or, essentially, the fetishization of asianess.

This + insistence upon viewing the other person as a cultural stereotype or a living anime figure. And in my experience, it's always about Japan. Almost all the creeps who've objectified me in this way have been Japanese language students, part of a Japanese club of some sort, really want to visit Japan... Which makes about as much sense as if I hit on white Canadians because I was really into Russian culture. ETA: And it really shows that it's about objectification and seeing all Asian people as the same - because if it were anything about getting to know the other person or even simply finding them attractive, it would take about a minute to learn that me and my English as a first language weren't Japanese in the slightest.

[Spider From Mars]

Still, let me put it to you this way. In 1700s China, feet-binding where a woman's feet is broken and then wrapped tightly to cause severe deformity was seen as highly erotic and desirable. Many women strived for that feature and willingly subjected themselves to that treatment. If the trend were to somehow resurface here in the U.S. today, and there are men and women who willingly go into that, is that something that we would say, "oh, on the matter of the genital and heart, you just got to let people be"?

If the American woman in question is an adult and fully informed on the procedure and consents to do that to her own body (for whatever reason), then let her. We aren’t stopping people from using gauges to put holes the size of saucers in their earlobes because it identifies them with a specific culture and makes them more attractive within it, are we?

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Still, let me put it to you this way. In 1700s China, feet-binding where a woman's feet is broken and then wrapped tightly to cause severe deformity was seen as highly erotic and desirable. Many women strived for that feature and willingly subjected themselves to that treatment. If the trend were to somehow resurface here in the U.S. today, and there are men and women who willingly go into that, is that something that we would say, "oh, on the matter of the genital and heart, you just got to let people be"?

http://www.123mycodes.com/myspacefunnystuff/img/3368.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_YKYinnCIcVw/SwVDOxrCKiI/AAAAAAAACdE/Hs9wOkOqG8g/s400/BadNoseJob.jpg

[Spider From Mars]

Man, that almost made me spurt coffee all over my keyboard!!!

Wow, do some people on the Board like to kiss and tell...

Mandy, please note that pairing for the PowerPoint, if not done already.

What PowerPoint do you speak of?

[S John]

I don't think anyone is advocating that we presume all Caucasian-Asian pairings are results of racial stereotypes and exotification of the minority. I don't even think that Yags had said that. What he had pointed out, however, are concrete examples of when it does happen. Perhaps this specific personal ad is fake. Who knows. But does anyone really doubt that what was described in that ad exists? Really? So yes, not all pairings suffer from this, for instance I don't believe that my relationship does, but this is a real phenomenon and it deserves to be raised and addressed.

To what end though? While I have doubts that the specific OP is real I don't have any doubt that there are people out there who are like that kid. We can discuss it, sure, but is there anything we can really do about that sort of cultural phenomenon other than vent? And say an Asian woman did respond favorably to that kids' ad? (For what its worth I think that the chances of that are so low that it would take a new discipline of mathematics to calculate a figure that small.) But still, if she did - is she not exercising her own free will in getting involved with Perseus? In fact, Perseus is at least being upfront about his objectification.

As for the second part, I agree that it is not my part to say anything about a relationship as long as the two adults are both consenting. If a person likes to be objectified, then s/he is lucky that s/he finds someone to objectify them. However, as a social phenomenon, I think it is something that we can all comment on. We shouldn't comment on one specific relationship, as it's none of our business, but as a social reality, it's something we can all have an opinion on. Let me use the example of, say, conservative Christians where the women are in totally submissive roles. It's a consenting relationship, is it not? Yet, is it out of place for us to say that we find the kind of power imbalance that promulgates gender power dysfunction to be unsavory and undesirable? Or do you find that to be off-limit as a topic, as well?

Well, to clarify, in no way do I think that this topic should be off-limits. I don't think any topics should be off limits here or else I'd be a hypocrite for being annoyed that some of my posts get deleted from time to time. I'm only discussing the validity of the gripe. Is it reasonable to be upset about it? Yea definitely. But the truth is that you can't frame the argument in a way that basically everyone won't agree with anyway and still generate discussion. So you say - 'it pisses me off when white men objectify Asian women in such a way that they enter into relationships where it negatively impacts the lives of Asian Americans.' Ok, exactly nobody is going to disagree with that. But in order to generate discussion its gotta be more along the lines of - 'damn white guys who like Asian chicks, how pathetic are they?' In other words, the only way to find uncommon ground is by taking the fight into the mud right away.

And I believe that I've said as much.

I believe we are fundamentally in agreement. We're just hammering out the details.

Still, let me put it to you this way. In 1700s China, feet-binding where a woman's feet is broken and then wrapped tightly to cause severe deformity was seen as highly erotic and desirable. Many women strived for that feature and willingly subjected themselves to that treatment. If the trend were to somehow resurface here in the U.S. today, and there are men and women who willingly go into that, is that something that we would say, "oh, on the matter of the genital and heart, you just got to let people be"?

If it were to arise in the modern US? Well, I'd frown upon it, but does the social dynamic really exist in this time in place where women would really feel pressured to bind their feet in order to find a mate? I don't think so. And if some women were into it I guess that'd be their business. But a more realistic example would be like wearing heels, or bikini waxes. I don't demand these things, but many women do them because society expects them too. And I still say its a choice. Men would not stop having sex with women if these things were to cease. Sure there's certain expectations in all relationships, but its not a roller coaster where you can't get off until the end, its more like the subway where you can always get off at the next stop. And as long as that much is true, then I tend to lean towards letting people do whatever pleases them.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

And all the single women complain that the wonderful guys are either gay or married...

Frankly, I start to wonder if people might need to look in the mirror if they "can't find the right one". Being too busy to look is one thing, or living in a town of 300 people 2,000 miles away from anywhere else; but if there "are never any good men/women available" then the problem is often closer to home.

I can't find the right one, so I just went and looked in the mirror and I saw the problem. I'm fucking hideous. Damn it.

[tarantella]

I don't have yellow fever, but I do have kind of a weird thing for Shiina Ringo. Less because she's Japanese and more because her voice is pure sex though.

[TerraPrime]

Re: S John

To what end though? While I have doubts that the specific OP is real I don't have any doubt that there are people out there who are like that kid. We can discuss it, sure, but is there anything we can really do about that sort of cultural phenomenon other than vent?

To what end? The same that is served by social critique or theorizing of gender, race, or religious issues, I'm guessing.

I also think you're still conflating a critique of one's sexual attraction, which is not the issue of yellow fever, and the critique of people buying into and promulgating racial stereotypes in the process of fetishizing and exoticizing minority people. Obviously, nothing we can say or post or discuss or critique will change a person's sexual attraction, but that's not really the point of the critique, is it? I thought we had agreed that we are not seeking to dictate the targets of permissible sexual attraction to others? So I don't know what you're trying to discuss, but I am trying to discuss the racial stereotypes surrounding sexualizing SE Asians in this country, and also reacting to postings here that intentionally or not, minimize or dismiss this phenomenon.

In fact, Perseus is at least being upfront about his objectification.

I don't think we ought to give credit to folks like Perseus unless their revelation comes with the introspective realization that this is indeed what they're doing. Sounds to me like this alleged Perseus person is quite sincere in believing that the way he seeks Asian women for friendship is quite acceptable. This level of honesty, such as it is, denotes more a level of cluelessness than it does about bravery in the face of social scorn.

I'm only discussing the validity of the gripe. Is it reasonable to be upset about it? Yea definitely. But the truth is that you can't frame the argument in a way that basically everyone won't agree with anyway and still generate discussion. So you say - 'it pisses me off when white men objectify Asian women in such a way that they enter into relationships where it negatively impacts the lives of Asian Americans.' Ok, exactly nobody is going to disagree with that. But in order to generate discussion its gotta be more along the lines of - 'damn white guys who like Asian chicks, how pathetic are they?' In other words, the only way to find uncommon ground is by taking the fight into the mud right away.

Okay, yes, the way that yags phrased it was intended to get a reaction out of others. Still, the opinions that did/do get voiced as a result are leading a discussion (meandering as it is) on the actual issue. In particular, I think it's worthwhile to showcase just how many people hold the views such as "oh you're just complaining because the white people are stealing your women", etc.

If it were to arise in the modern US? Well, I'd frown upon it, but does the social dynamic really exist in this time in place where women would really feel pressured to bind their feet in order to find a mate? I don't think so.

Tormund stole my punchline. I was going to point out the modern plastic surgery is no less savage or brutal than feet-binding. The only difference is that it is more medically advanced, complete with anesthesia.

But really, my point is that we can maintain respect for individual choices made in the privacy of their own home and which concerns the integrity of their own well-being while still comment on the aggregate effects of these choices on society, as well as the motivating factors that lead people to make those choices in the first place.