Sansa's memory related to Sandor II

[seadragon]

The previous thread has reached 400 posts so let's continue here. :)

[littlebird_]

I can't believe we've reached a second thread :D

and still no answers :(

[seadragon]

Can't you just see the Queen Dowager being dragged down the aisle like Sansa was? :lol:

Lord Tywin could do just that!... I'd actually love seeing it! :) Right, I should have said that Cersei wouldn't dare to disobey him...

About Lysa and marriage, there are several characters discussing the fact that she should marry, in the different books. I took it as "the Lord Protector should be a man", but I agree, it may be well because she is seen as unfit to rule; this is practically one of the first things the Blackfish says to Cat about Lysa.

We know about lady Mormont from the Old Bear when he gives the sword to Jon, and Cat mentions her several times (as well as Bran too IIRC). There are also some interesting things about the Mormonts in the Daenerys chapters, and in ADwD. She seems to be widowed: she is the one leading her people, when Robb calls his bannermen (I think someone says so at some point).

Lady Waynwood has indeed 3 sons, but again she is an old widow with an iron fist, it would seem. The Queen of Thorns is another leading woman, although she holds no title.

I've never meant that women couldn't rule or that it is unheard of, but that men will always do their best to keep them away from any form of power, and that the customs sustain this way of things. And there are always the men who are under the rule of their wives, or their mothers (like lord Puff fish it would seem :)).

Although this is a very interesting subject let's go back to the main topic. What really happened that night in Sansa's bedroom during the Blackwater Battle? Why she keeps on changing the memory of it? What is going in GRRM's mind????

I can't believe we've reached a second thread :D

and still no answers :(

We'll find one some day, let's just hope that it won't be in 6 years from now :).

[FacelessGirl]

Good going, seadragon!

I was getting so upset when I saw they locked the thread, lol, but we're back! :)

[daisyberisha]

We'll find one some day, let's just hope that it won't be in 6 years from now :).

[Starbird]

What's with the locking? I'm reposting:ICE CROW, on 11 August 2011 - 08:18 PM, said:

I noticed a couple of you wondering if Sansa can Divorce Tyrion, from what i remember because they never consummated the marriage (did the funky chicken) she can divorce Tyrion fairly easily especially if the septons check her and see she's still a virgin.

How did I forget the whole consummation issue?? Duh! Since Tyrion's a dwarf, this could present an interesting issue. Not to be graphic but if he's, uh, built to scale, couldn't it stand to reason that, if it came down to a he-said/she-said argument, a septon's diagnosis might be inconclusive? Tyrion has never meant Sansa any harm but who knows? In the future, he may actually want Winterfell enough to say the marriage WAS consummated.

Alexia, on 11 August 2011 - 08:33 PM, said:

I will also add that I think we are seeing the evolution of one of this generation's major political powers in Sansa. She hates Lannisters with every fiber of her being and has been trained in politics by both Cersei and Littlefinger. I believe that Sansa will end the series with real political power concentrated in her hands, not those of her husband. It may be as the lady of Winterfell, or the lady of Riverrun, or even as the next queen to a disinterested king. But I'm pretty sure Sansa is being set up for big things.

Absolutely agree. Who better to learn political maneuvering from than LF? And who better to learn what not do than from Cersei? I think Sansa's coming into her own more than any other character, and she doesn't lack for guts. In GOT, I could barely tolerate her. Now, I can't get enough.

brashcandy, on 11 August 2011 - 08:49 PM, said:

You raised some really great questions here. And I agree with you that Winterfell would be the biggest obstacle... But as you pointed out, Sansa might choose to let this go to Bran or Rickon, and if she decides to pursue Sandor, she would still have some notable property, given that he is the heir to House Clegane.

Uhh, that might not be the case. Gregor's had (3?) wives. Do we know if he has any legitimate heirs? They'd be charming young men, to be sure.

brashcandy, on 11 August 2011 - 08:49 PM, said:

What I've found interesting in this series so far is the way GRRM seems to be creating a new world order for this generation. We have all the old grand stories of their forefathers and parents, but these children of Westeros seem to be actively involved in carving their fates and bucking tradition. And I dare say that in this the females are leading the way nicely.

If we think of all the principal female characters - Asha, Sansa, Arya, Brienne, Dany, Arianne, the Sand Snakes, Mya Stone etc- All these girls/women are resisting the patriarchal order that has defined Westerosi society, and for the most part seem quite determined to be independent and live life to how it suits them best.

It's interesting but what do you think started it? I mean, so many women in the younger generation are determining their own course when their mothers didn't. Just seems, for lack of a better word, strange that there's this sudden upswell of women with agency all over Westeros.

[FacelessGirl]

I am BEYOND excited for that episode! I know George's writing won't disappoint, but Rory better bring it with the acting. This is a very poignant scene between Sandor and Sansa, so it'll be like a do-over for the missed chance with him telling her his backstory. Really hope he doesn't disappoint because I really want to like him for something else besides his hotness. :)

[seadragon]

Good going, seadragon!

I was getting so upset when I saw they locked the thread, lol, but we're back! :)

Thanks FacelessGirl, I love this thread too much to let it go :).

We'll find out come next year! We'll see how Martin portrays the scene in the episode of the Battle of Blackwater, which he is supposed to write.

He can still have Sansa misrembering it - he enjoys keeping us on our toes!

What's with the locking?

Apparently threads are locked once they reach 400 posts. Go figure...

[littlebird_]

What I've found interesting in this series so far is the way GRRM seems to be creating a new world order for this generation. We have all the old grand stories of their forefathers and parents, but these children of Westeros seem to be actively involved in carving their fates and bucking tradition. And I dare say that in this the females are leading the way nicely.

If we think of all the principal female characters - Asha, Sansa, Arya, Brienne, Dany, Arianne, the Sand Snakes, Mya Stone etc- All these girls/women are resisting the patriarchal order that has defined Westerosi society, and for the most part seem quite determined to be independent and live life to how it suits them best.

It's interesting but what do you think started it? I mean, so many women in the younger generation are determining their own course when their mothers didn't. Just seems, for lack of a better word, strange that there's this sudden upswell of women with agency all over Westeros.

This is a very good point. I think it has to do with the old order crumbling and the old generation dying at a time of war. not only the girls but all the young generation are thrust in a situation of upheaval where they decide who they are and what they can do with their lives. Its a traumatic experience but it also enables them to escape the ghosts of the past and the rules and demands of their houses and parents. Like for a girl like Arya, if the war had never happened, she would have learned to sword fight but she would have also been married into a Northern family and probably never would have killed someone. A girl like Sansa would have never had to learn how to lie and manipulate or ever know about the workings of Westerosi politics. Even Robb would have never been the King in the North because things would have just continued on but suddenly Sansa finds herself with a claim she never even considered herself having, Brienne finds herself in the middle of a war where she can prove to everyone she is a knight. A new generation is getting the chance to become something they never would have under peaceful conditions and this is where the identity theme comes in because most of them are so young rather than being shaped solely by their family they also become shaped by the conditions they need to survive (Arya - war; Sansa - KL) and in the process create new identities for themselves. This is where I assume GRRM is going with the stories, left to their own devices some in this generation will rise to the occasion and some will fail, some will be able to form new identities and some will get lost.

[FacelessGirl]

This is a very good point. I think it has to do with the old order crumbling and the old generation dying at a time of war. not only the girls but all the young generation are thrust in a situation of upheaval where they decide who they are and what they can do with their lives. Its a traumatic experience but it also enables them to escape the ghosts of the past and the rules and demands of their houses and parents. Like for a girl like Arya, if the war had never happened, she would have learned to sword fight but she would have also been married into a Northern family and probably never would have killed someone. A girl like Sansa would have never had to learn how to lie and manipulate or ever know about the workings of Westerosi politics. Even Robb would have never been the King in the North because things would have just continued on but suddenly Sansa finds herself with a claim she never even considered herself having, Brienne finds herself in the middle of a war where she can prove to everyone she is a knight. A new generation is getting the chance to become something they never would have under peaceful conditions and this is where the identity theme comes in because most of them are so young rather than being shaped solely by their family they also become shaped by the conditions they need to survive (Arya - war; Sansa - KL) and in the process create new identities for themselves. This is where I assume GRRM is going with the stories, left to their own devices some in this generation will rise to the occasion and some will fail, some will be able to form new identities and some will get lost.

I like this new theory. It reminds me of World War II and the stories of women manning the factories and jobs primary did by the men, while they were off fighting. It really is a testament to the endurance and strength of females, and a display of character for the ones who manage to survive, like Sansa. I personally feel she is one of the strongest women in this series because she's been through A LOT. But she still is able to get up everyday and do what she has to. I'll be honest and say I didn't like her character in the beginning but she has definitely grown on me since my first reading of Game of Thrones.

[littlespider]

Glad this threat started back up again because I have the inkling of a new theory, which is probably crackpot and easily dismissed, but there it is. I also discovered another CCE (casual cloak exchange), one that may make the shippers unhappy.

So, I'm thinking back to LB's post summing up our current theories: (1) some twist to come; (2) repression of trauma; (3) sexual awakening; and (4) connection to her identity. I tend to lean towards 2, with the "trauma" referring to the Unkiss (love that term) scene itself as well as the numerous other times that Sansa'a had her agency and control over her body and/or situation forcibly removed from her. But I also think there are strong elements of 3 and 4.

But I come back to scenario (1) as well, because there are other moments (besides BBB) where Sansa's behavior seems a little "off." As other posters have mentioned, are there instances where we might be looking at other invented memories or even at repressed or substituted memories?

I started looking at the Purple Wedding and the abduction by LF again, since my husband was reading the ghost of high heart prophecies and was confused about the "purple snakes in hair" bit. Have we ever gotten any indication besides hints here and there of who it was that put the amethyst in the pigeon pie? There's a suggestion that LF and the Queen of Thorns are behind the plot, right? But correct me if I'm wrong, but we haven't yet gotten the tidbit of how the amethyst gets from Sansa's hairnet -- another object in addition to Sandor's cloak that appears to develop powerful emotional and symbolic attachments for her -- into that pie. (Caveat: I am only halfway through my obsessive reread so I may be totally wrong here!)

Right after the wedding, Sansa acts almost as traumatized as after the Blackwater scene: she alternates between hysterical and being in a dreamlike state. We could easily attribute this to her just having witnessed Joffrey's death and the conflicting feelings of "The gods are just" and reassuring herself that "I have a good heart." And she freaks when she looks at that hairnet, and the missing amethyst.

So this might be verging on crackpot, or squarely in the crackpot camp, but is there a chance that Sansa might have taken a more active role in Joffrey's death, or something like that? This is all hedging on my own totally unreliable memory ;) about whether or not we've already been informed about who got that amethyst into the pie.

Oh, and the cloak theory? When Sansa gets onto the boat, LF notices that she's shivering. And he wraps his cloak around her shoulders. When I read that I was all, fffuuuuuuu....

I am an undecided shipper, though it's pretty obvious that she has this strong attachment to Sandor, and he to her. Most of the time, though, I want Sansa to get out of this a single gal, annul her marriage to Tyrion, make friends with Tyrion (or at least some kind of civil political alliance), and be all liberated-woman-and-shit. And if she does hook up, marry, or start her own harem of hotties to be at her beck and call, let it at least be entirely under her control with her making her own darn choices.

But seriously I'd rather see her become one of the silent sisters rather than hook up with LF. Geeeeross!

[Alexia]

Have we ever gotten any indication besides hints here and there of who it was that put the amethyst in the pigeon pie?

It was in the wine. The Queen of Thorns pried it out of Sansa's hairnet when she "adjusted" it and from there, either Margaery or Garlan popped it into Joffrey's wine cup. The hairnet is important to Sansa because Dontos told her that it contained magic that would take her hom.

I disagree with the crackpot. She was framed so that she would not be able to easily escape LF.

[littlespider]

It was in the wine. The Queen of Thorns pried it out of Sansa's hairnet when she "adjusted" it and from there, either Margaery or Garlan popped it into Joffrey's wine cup. The hairnet is important to Sansa because Dontos told her that it contained magic that would take her hom.

I disagree with the crackpot. She was framed so that she would not be able to easily escape LF.

If that's the case, my bet's on Garlan. I was utterly convinced by Margaery's hysterics at the PW. That, or Marg's a much more deadly playah than Cersei at her best.

Yeah, I had a feeling it was a crackpot, partially out of my wish that Sansa become super-spy-chick at some point.

[Alexia]

If that's the case, my bet's on Garlan. I was utterly convinced by Margaery's hysterics at the PW. That, or Marg's a much more deadly playah than Cersei at her best.

Actually, my bet is on Margaery. She knew all along what her family planned (Sansa was so perplexed by her nonchalance at the concept of marrying Joffrey) and she was drinking from the cup (as Mace reminded the court, at length). If Garlan put the poison in, he made a signal to her of some kind to stop drinking. Either way, her hysterics were completely false. :)

[littlebird_]

I like this new theory. It reminds me of World War II and the stories of women manning the factories and jobs primary did by the men, while they were off fighting. It really is a testament to the endurance and strength of females, and a display of character for the ones who manage to survive, like Sansa. I personally feel she is one of the strongest women in this series because she's been through A LOT. But she still is able to get up everyday and do what she has to. I'll be honest and say I didn't like her character in the beginning but she has definitely grown on me since my first reading of Game of Thrones.

That's a great comparison, every war leads to a certain degree of social upheaval and I think this is what we are witnessing, people who under normal circumstances would not have needed to survive are being forced to develop a new set of skills and strategies to survive. I find Sansa's to be one of the most interesting examples of this because she does accept the role the society gives her, she has no need to rebel or change societal rules, she's happy. And then when war starts suddenly she has to question everything she thought was right about the world and reevaluate her place in it. She is suddenly left without any protection (a protection the values and rules of her society state she has through her father and brother) and she is the Kingslayer. Its an interesting turn of events when a girl who only wanted to be a queen (in the fairy tale sense) is suddenly left with a claim to one of the great houses that everyone covets and she is, to her knowledge, the leader of that House. At this point in the story we are that critical moment where she decides whether or not she does rise to the occasion and assume her role as Sansa Stark or choose to stay Alayne Stone. This is of course a pattern that is happening with a lot of the main characters. I think Sansa will come out of it of course but I am not sure all of them will.

And the whole mismemory of the kiss will play a role in her assuming her role as Sansa Stark but I don't know how :bang:

But I come back to scenario (1) as well, because there are other moments (besides BBB) where Sansa's behavior seems a little "off." As other posters have mentioned, are there instances where we might be looking at other invented memories or even at repressed or substituted memories?

I started looking at the Purple Wedding and the abduction by LF again, since my husband was reading the ghost of high heart prophecies and was confused about the "purple snakes in hair" bit. Have we ever gotten any indication besides hints here and there of who it was that put the amethyst in the pigeon pie? There's a suggestion that LF and the Queen of Thorns are behind the plot, right? But correct me if I'm wrong, but we haven't yet gotten the tidbit of how the amethyst gets from Sansa's hairnet -- another object in addition to Sandor's cloak that appears to develop powerful emotional and symbolic attachments for her -- into that pie. (Caveat: I am only halfway through my obsessive reread so I may be totally wrong here!)

I think the assumption is that Olenna takes it and then gives it to Margaery who then puts it. The thing is how could Sansa play a bigger role without LF knowing, if she was cooperating with Olenna separately then rather than escaping she would have stayed and they would have still arranged for her to marry Willas.

I have said it before, I do find it strange that she never mentions the escape beforehand in her thoughts and even afterwards. It is not something she considers and replays in her head. One thing that always confuses me is what did Dontos tell Sansa exactly, she knew she was escaping that night but how did she know the exact moment, did Dontos say there will be some event and no one will notice you, we just don't know exactly when Sansa gets away, or was it about the order of the performers, when this performance starts escape, but then how would Dontos know exactly when the poison would be put.

Oh, and the cloak theory? When Sansa gets onto the boat, LF notices that she's shivering. And he wraps his cloak around her shoulders. When I read that I was all, fffuuuuuuu....

I am an undecided shipper, though it's pretty obvious that she has this strong attachment to Sandor, and he to her. Most of the time, though, I want Sansa to get out of this a single gal, annul her marriage to Tyrion, make friends with Tyrion (or at least some kind of civil political alliance), and be all liberated-woman-and-shit. And if she does hook up, marry, or start her own harem of hotties to be at her beck and call, let it at least be entirely under her control with her making her own darn choices.

But seriously I'd rather see her become one of the silent sisters rather than hook up with LF. Geeeeross!

I don't ship her with anyone but if there is a term like anti-ship its with LF, its disturbing and that is saying something when we consider the nature of her relationship with men. Interesting catch about the cloak though, here comes my crackpot about the cloak :D

So she has received a cloak from all the main men in her life, in the end it will be about which one she chooses :D But anyway I doubt LF perceives the symbolism of the cloak like Tyrion and Sandor would.

[3LittleBirds]

I don't ship her with anyone but if there is a term like anti-ship its with LF, its disturbing and that is saying something when we consider the nature of her relationship with men. Interesting catch about the cloak though, here comes my crackpot about the cloak :D

So she has received a cloak from all the main men in her life, in the end it will be about which one she chooses :D But anyway I doubt LF perceives the symbolism of the cloak like Tyrion and Sandor would.

Damn, you LF! Actually, damn you multiquote, b/c I don't know how to work you! Also, am lazy.

I like littlebird_'s theory about she'll choose which one she wants. However, I have to disagree that LF wouldn't perceive the symbolism in draping his cloak around her shoulders, even if it wasn't a planned action. The man has spent his entire adult life obsessing over not being allowed to marry Cat...I think he's probably thought a lot about stuff like that. Not to mention, he's just a clever cat.

If you look at it one way, he is beginning a relationship of protection at that moment...protection from the Lannisters, at least. However creepy his behavior towards her, she would have been straight-up screwed if she had stayed in KL.

Also, I still wonder in the back of my mind if he's not going to end up married to her at some point in the future. IDK, it would mean a few people having to die, pretty conveniently, but LF doesn't have what we'd call morals...just a utter fixation on power and Tully women (Sansa's so Tully it hurts, at least in looks). I wouldn't bet on him surviving the marriage long, but...

[FacelessGirl]

That's a great comparison, every war leads to a certain degree of social upheaval and I think this is what we are witnessing, people who under normal circumstances would not have needed to survive are being forced to develop a new set of skills and strategies to survive. I find Sansa's to be one of the most interesting examples of this because she does accept the role the society gives her, she has no need to rebel or change societal rules, she's happy. And then when war starts suddenly she has to question everything she thought was right about the world and reevaluate her place in it. She is suddenly left without any protection (a protection the values and rules of her society state she has through her father and brother) and she is the Kingslayer. Its an interesting turn of events when a girl who only wanted to be a queen (in the fairy tale sense) is suddenly left with a claim to one of the great houses that everyone covets and she is, to her knowledge, the leader of that House. At this point in the story we are that critical moment where she decides whether or not she does rise to the occasion and assume her role as Sansa Stark or choose to stay Alayne Stone. This is of course a pattern that is happening with a lot of the main characters. I think Sansa will come out of it of course but I am not sure all of them will.

And the whole mismemory of the kiss will play a role in her assuming her role as Sansa Stark but I don't know how :bang:

Tying in with your first theory, I think it's interesting in AFFC's how bitter Sansa is portrayed over knowing most of her potential suitors only want her for her claim to Winterfell. Tie this in with the independence and freedom she has as Alanye Stone, and all the upheaval and disillusionment she's experience throughout the course of the story, and I think we'll have our first case of an emancipated Westorsi woman in Sansa, and perhaps her generation. I won't set it in stone but perhaps this is George's way of lighting the fire for the future generations of Westerosi women. Think on our history. Before the second World War women were basically slaves to their men in every way, and go their first taste of independence when they went off to fight and die. Flash forward to the 50's and women are back in the subservient role and at the mercy of their men. But it's a lot more frustrating for them now because they know what its like to live without them and to get paid for jobs they can do just as well, and so on. Now usher in the 60's and 70's where the daughters of these same women have started demanding for their fair rights and equality. It's because of them our generation sees women going to college and deserving of well paid and high powered jobs as "normal".

Getting back to my point, do you all think Sansa and this generation of women who survive the war, and have had the glass shattered from the snowballs, be the ones who permanently break the chains and the fixed destinies for the future generation? Will young girls in Westoros years from now in the books be valued more for more than their beauty, and "tits and cunnies"?

Also Sansa will find out what Littlefinger is. After she goes KILLBILL on him, I strongly believe this and her mismemory will be yet another step out of the supposed freedom as Alayne back into Sansa Stark, whom she will be better able to accept because she is free otherwise. No more cages for this little bird. What do you all think or am I just rambling again? :rolleyes:

[ICE CROW]

Thanks FacelessGirl, I love this thread too much to let it go :).

He can still have Sansa misrembering it - he enjoys keeping us on our toes!

Apparently threads are locked once they reach 400 posts. Go figure...

Just wanted to thank you again for all you help yesterday finally got things working right, really appreciate the time you took to figure out the pic issue. And glad to see the thread back.

[littlebird_]

Damn, you LF! Actually, damn you multiquote, b/c I don't know how to work you! Also, am lazy.

I like littlebird_'s theory about she'll choose which one she wants. However, I have to disagree that LF wouldn't perceive the symbolism in draping his cloak around her shoulders, even if it wasn't a planned action. The man has spent his entire adult life obsessing over not being allowed to marry Cat...I think he's probably thought a lot about stuff like that. Not to mention, he's just a clever cat.

If you look at it one way, he is beginning a relationship of protection at that moment...protection from the Lannisters, at least. However creepy his behavior towards her, she would have been straight-up screwed if she had stayed in KL.

Good point, LF is obsessive enough to know the significance, does anyone remember if Sansa mentions LF putting his cloak over Lysa (not that it means anything just wondering) but I'm just going to stick to my theory that it means that Sansa gets to choose :D

The cloak is a significant of a young girl leaving her father's house and protection and entering into her husbad's protection and his house, in a sense Sansa has done this three times now (lol she's going around Westeros collecting cloaks) so it means that for some reason she has resisted and/or rejected the protection promised by these men and in the end it will be about if she accepts that symbol from another man or she just says screw all of you, I'm just going to live alone now :D

Getting back to my point, do you all think Sansa and this generation of women who survive the war, and have had the glass shattered from the snowballs, be the ones who permanently break the chains and the fixed destinies for the future generation? Will young girls in Westoros years from now in the books be valued more for more than their beauty, and "tits and cunnies"?

The emancipation of women didn't happen easily like you point out it was in stages so I doubt we'll be seeing anything too significant but I do think that there will be more female heads of houses by the end of the series than they were at the start :D A small step but a step nonetheless, right now I see Asha, Arienne and probably Sansa heading a house each. We might also get people like Brienne getting more recognition as a knight. This is something that is facilitated because so many men die in war and the lines of succession get blurred at war time as heirs are lost.

Also Sansa will find out what Littlefinger is. After she goes KILLBILL on him, I strongly believe this and her mismemory will be yet another step out of the supposed freedom as Alayne back into Sansa Stark, whom she will be better able to accept because she is free otherwise. No more cages for this little bird. What do you all think or am I just rambling again? :rolleyes:

I think being alayne is going to help her a lot in wanting more freedom for herself, this is a role she never thought she would have, a role outside of the rules of the society she believes in so much; a bastard girl. I think she'll take the experiences from that into the Sansa Stark that comes out of this ordeal. The kiss fits here somehow, I KNOW IT DOES :tantrum: I am more and more convinced its crucial in her reclaiming and redefining her identity as Sansa Stark but I just can't figure it out!!

[ICE CROW]

Don't forget there have been some truly powerful women in our history, from some great queens of England all the way back to the Egyptians. Also never forget the power women have had in our history without ruling. How many wars in our history were fought over the shear beauty of a woman. Helen of Troy is probably the most famous i could think of. Women have always had power through out our history it was up to them to find that strength within themselves and rise up against what was expected of them as women, as i said before our history is full of truly remarkable woman.