Sansa's memory related to Sandor II

[Bugger that]

I noticed at two other inconsistent things. Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't have the books in front of me right now. But in AGoT when he makes Sansa look at him the first time, she describes his face in quite a detail. What we learn is that it is his left side that is burned and she specifically says that he has no remnants of an ear on that side, only a hole. Later though, in ACoK, she mentions how she walks on the Hound's left side to avoid seeing his burns, which doesn't make sense. Also, in ASoS, he loses a stub of an ear off his burned side when fighting the Tickler and Polliver.

These are very minor things however, maybe just something that slipped by the author and the editors...

[brashcandy]

Ok, Littlebird and co. I have another crackpot to advance about the kiss:

Ok so we know in the Eyrie Sansa says that Sandor took a kiss and left her with a bloody cloak. And we've all been going crazy thinking what kiss?! Did it happen, is she crazy, etc etc.

Ok so what if the kiss isn't important, but what it represents? Meaning, the actual kiss didn't happen, but it's the larger symbolic meaning of the kiss that is significant here.

What got me thinking of this is the whole issue of the bloody cloak. We've already theorised that the cloak that he discards represents the overall disillusionment with the Kingsguard and the whole operation of knighthood in general. So, following my crackpot, what the Hound leaves Sansa with is this similar disenchantment with these knightly values that she once believed in, i.e, the bloody cloak.

Applying this to the kiss is a little more difficult, obviously because Sansa also connects kissing with knights etc. However, I'm thinking that kissing represents something more for her. So let's say that kissing is linked in her mind with marriage or similarly deep. So, she believes that Sandor kissed her. Although it didn't happen, this is no longer important. It's what the kiss means to her that's at the issue. So, on the one hand, with the bloody cloak she has thrown away the foolish ideas about knighthood, but with the misremembered kiss she has replaced this loss with a more realistic ideal about men??

Ok :) I'm lost again! Share thoughts, opinions. Support or debunk or advance. It sounds as though I've come back to saying the misremembered kiss is all about Sandor, but I think it goes a bit further. I'm thinking that it might lead her on a journey to find someone/find herself.

Ok, just gave myself a headache.

[FacelessGirl]

Ok, Littlebird and co. I have another crackpot to advance about the kiss:

Ok so we know in the Eyrie Sansa says that Sandor took a kiss and left her with a bloody cloak. And we've all been going crazy thinking what kiss?! Did it happen, is she crazy, etc etc.

Ok so what if the kiss isn't important, but what it represents? Meaning, the actual kiss didn't happen, but it's the larger symbolic meaning of the kiss that is significant here.

What got me thinking of this is the whole issue of the bloody cloak. We've already theorised that the cloak that he discards represents the overall disillusionment with the Kingsguard and the whole operation of knighthood in general. So, following my crackpot, what the Hound leaves Sansa with is this similar disenchantment with these knightly values that she once believed in, i.e, the bloody cloak.

Applying this to the kiss is a little more difficult, obviously because Sansa also connects kissing with knights etc. However, I'm thinking that kissing represents something more for her. So let's say that kissing is linked in her mind with marriage or similarly deep. So, she believes that Sandor kissed her. Although it didn't happen, this is no longer important. It's what the kiss means to her that's at the issue. So, on the one hand, with the bloody cloak she has thrown away the foolish ideas about knighthood, but with the misremembered kiss she has replaced this loss with a more realistic ideal about men??

Ok :) I'm lost again! Share thoughts, opinions. Support or debunk or advance. It sounds as though I've come back to saying the misremembered kiss is all about Sandor, but I think it goes a bit further. I'm thinking that it might lead her on a journey to find someone/find herself.

Ok, just gave myself a headache.

Following your theory I beleive the kiss and the cloak are symbols of whats to come for Sansa and Sandor. :)

[Alais]

My mind is wandering and I'm thinking while I write, so this may not make much sense, but the basis of an idea or two might be in here.

He took a kiss - her first kiss, so it's significant, even if it only happened in her imagination. In all the stories of knights and fair ladies I think kisses were more a symbol of "courtly love" than passion. The kiss that she remembers isn't the chaste, gentle kiss of a story. So Sandor took a kiss and in doing so helped destroy her illusions about kisses. (I'm reminded of what she said to Cersei about expecting her flowering to be less messy and more magical. Welcome to reality little bird.)

He left her a bloody cloak. I think we're right that the cloak represents disenchantment with all the knightly values that Sandor despises as lies. Sansa is beginning to be disillusioned also. I think Sandor's discarding the cloak is his rejection of both his role as the Lannister's dog and his membership in what was usually a "knights only" club, the Kingsguard.

He left the cloak, which had been a symbol of his role as Joffrey's protector for Sansa. I think that protective symbol is important. His loyalty is transferred from Joffrey and the Lannisters to Sansa, even though she isn't ready to go with him. That's the symbolic meaning of the exchange of cloaks in the wedding ceremony - it may well foreshadow their future. But then, this is GRRM, it may not.

[brashcandy]

My mind is wandering and I'm thinking while I write, so this may not make much sense, but the basis of an idea or two might be in here.

He took a kiss - her first kiss, so it's significant, even if it only happened in her imagination. In all the stories of knights and fair ladies I think kisses were more a symbol of "courtly love" than passion. The kiss that she remembers isn't the chaste, gentle kiss of a story. So Sandor took a kiss and in doing so helped destroy her illusions about kisses. (I'm reminded of what she said to Cersei about expecting her flowering to be less messy and more magical. Welcome to reality little bird.)

He left her a bloody cloak. I think we're right that the cloak represents disenchantment with all the knightly values that Sandor despises as lies. Sansa is beginning to be disillusioned also. I think Sandor's discarding the cloak is his rejection of both his role as the Lannister's dog and his membership in what was usually a "knights only" club, the Kingsguard.

He left the cloak, which had been a symbol of his role as Joffrey's protector for Sansa. I think that protective symbol is important. His loyalty is transferred from Joffrey and the Lannisters to Sansa, even though she isn't ready to go with him. That's the symbolic meaning of the exchange of cloaks in the wedding ceremony - it may well foreshadow their future. But then, this is GRRM, it may not.

You made some good points here Alais! :) So then, are both the kiss and the cloak about rejecting the illusions that Sansa once had, and embracing a more realistic and ultimately fulfilling reality and destiny? One that ironically offers more protection and satisfaction than the others?

[Alais]

You made some good points here Alais! :) So then, are both the kiss and the cloak about rejecting the illusions that Sansa once had, and embracing a more realistic and ultimately fulfilling reality and destiny? One that ironically offers more protection and satisfaction than the others?

I think so. They're two parts of the same thing.

For Sansa the kiss represents rejecting illusions and the cloak is protection, freely offered by someone who only wants her for herself.

For Sandor the kiss never happened, the cloak is his rejection of the Lannisters and the beginning of the end of the Hound. It sets him on the path to becoming his own man, not someone's "dog". It also transfers his protection from Joffrey to Sansa.

[Angalin]

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One-line nonsense posts belong in Forum Games. This topic is discussed out.

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