Jump to content

Sansa's memory related to Sandor II


seadragon

Recommended Posts

The Civil War was a major boon to freedom of women in the United States, because so many women were left without male protectors in their lives and had to make do and find ways to survive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Civil War was a major boon to freedom of women in the United States, because so many women were left without male protectors in their lives and had to make do and find ways to survive.

It was the same here in Canada not quite to the same degree as in America cus we don't have as large a population. But Canadian woman had to do those same things even longer than the Americans because Canada was apart of WW2 from the beginning with the British. I remember hearing stories from grand mother about those times they were rough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Guys new to westeros so be gentle with me. I have to agree that i don't think Sansa is going crazy or misremembering the kiss from the hound during the Black Water Siege. The hound tells Arya in a AFFC plainly how he took a song and kiss from Sansa while he sat dying. So i whole heartedly believe the kiss was true and happened in reality.

Welcome ICE CROW! I don't think anyone's replied to this so here goes - the Hound alludes to the song twice in ASoS, but he never says he took a kiss from Sansa. We wouldn't have a thread if he did :P

“You’d be dead if I had. You ought to thank me. You ought to sing me a pretty little song, the way your sister did.”

[later chapter]

When Arya did not move, he said, “I killed your butcher’s boy. I cut him near in half, and laughed about it after.” He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. “And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf.” A spasm of pain twisted his face.

It's not mentioned in the scene in real-time, it's not mentioned by the Hound - it only appears in Sansa's remembrances during ASoS and AFfC. GRRM told us that she remembered incorrectly, and the UnMemory will be important later, so 1) what purpose can it serve for Sansa to think she kissed the Hound? and 2) what really happened?

Uhh, that might not be the case. Gregor's had (3?) wives. Do we know if he has any legitimate heirs? They'd be charming young men, to be sure.

He's definitely had two. The Clegane lands must be fairly substantial, otherwise who in their right mind would marry their daughter to the Mountain? :stillsick:

Targs have married Plumms, Arryns have married Hardyngs, Starks have married Flints. Very high families like the Starks can only ever marry 'down' into the regular noble houses - who in turn make matches with knightly houses all the time. If the Hound survives to the end of the series, he'll have cleared his name and earned some sort of respect, so San/San would raise eyebrows (into hairlines) rather than cause mass hysteria.

We know Bran and Rickon are out there somewhere, so let's be honest guys, she's never going to be permanent lady of Winterfell. And if Robb's wishes are taken into account, she's disinherited anyway (though that's potentially conditional on the solvency of her marriage to Tyrion).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When this story started i hated Sansa, she was a spoiled little brat who i still kinda put some blame on her for Ned's death, for ratting him out to the queen. But now after all she's been through i think see finally has the one thing everyone truly needs to happen to them in their life, shes been humbled. I think to be a great leader and even just a good person in general you need to know how to be humble and how to humble yourself and going from Lady Stark to Slap around Stark to bastard Alayne she has truly found herself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Welcome ICE CROW! I don't think anyone's replied to this so here goes - the Hound alludes to the song twice in ASoS, but he never says he took a kiss from Sansa. We wouldn't have a thread if he did :P

“You’d be dead if I had. You ought to thank me. You ought to sing me a pretty little song, the way your sister did.”

[later chapter]

When Arya did not move, he said, “I killed your butcher’s boy. I cut him near in half, and laughed about it after.” He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. “And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf.” A spasm of pain twisted his face.

It's not mentioned in the scene in real-time, it's not mentioned by the Hound - it only appears in Sansa's remembrances during ASoS and AFfC. GRRM told us that she remembered incorrectly, and the UnMemory will be important later, so 1) what purpose can it serve for Sansa to think she kissed the Hound? and 2) what really happened?

He's definitely had two. The Clegane lands must be fairly substantial, otherwise who in their right mind would marry their daughter to the Mountain? :stillsick:

Targs have married Plumms, Arryns have married Hardyngs, Starks have married Flints. Very high families like the Starks can only ever marry 'down' into the regular noble houses - who in turn make matches with knightly houses all the time. If the Hound survives to the end of the series, he'll have cleared his name and earned some sort of respect, so San/San would raise eyebrows (into hairlines) rather than cause mass hysteria.

We know Bran and Rickon are out there somewhere, so let's be honest guys, she's never going to be permanent lady of Winterfell. And if Robb's wishes are taken into account, she's disinherited anyway (though that's potentially conditional on the solvency of her marriage to Tyrion).

I may be wrong,but scinse Tirions first wihe is alive,does that not make Tirions mariage to Sansa practicly non existante?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Welcome ICE CROW! I don't think anyone's replied to this so here goes - the Hound alludes to the song twice in ASoS, but he never says he took a kiss from Sansa. We wouldn't have a thread if he did :P

Doesn't he talk about it more than that? There's another chapter, I think the very first one after he captured Arya, where he laughed at her attempts to kill him and said that her sister sang him a song. Arya responded by telling him that he was lying.

It is interesting how much stock he seems to put in that song. It seems a bit strange to go around bragging that a girl sang a song for you but Westerosi culture in general seems to put more store in songs than we do.

I think there's still some chance of Sansa becoming Lady of Winterfell. I don't see it as the most likely outcome, but Bran is never going to come south of the Wall again IMO and Rickon is a child. Sansa taking up the rule would be the best possible outcome for her House -- but it remains to be seen how it'll play out. Personally, I see her storyline being geared more towards the south.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When this story started i hated Sansa, she was a spoiled little brat who i still kinda put some blame on her for Ned's death, for ratting him out to the queen. But now after all she's been through i think see finally has the one thing everyone truly needs to happen to them in their life, shes been humbled. I think to be a great leader and even just a good person in general you need to know how to be humble and how to humble yourself and going from Lady Stark to Slap around Stark to bastard Alayne she has truly found herself.

Exceellent point and another highlight of GRRM's character development. Besides Sansa there are several characters who are forced to admit to look at themselves in the mirror, and are humbled. The good guys may get killed, but I take comforted knowing those who truly deserve it will have their bubbles burst before they grow too big. It happened to Sansa and in my opinion it has done wonders for her growth as a person and character. She's much more likable now. I do agree that while she taking a walk on the other side of the tracks as Alayne, I truly believe she is enjoying the freedom it offers and the chance to step away from the pain of being Sansa Stark. Another opportunity for her to grow as a person.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I may be wrong,but scinse Tirions first wihe is alive,does that not make Tirions mariage to Sansa practicly non existante?

Tywin's final conversation with Tyrion suggests that he chose to simply ignore the marriage, rather than have it formally annulled. That means legally, Tyrion was never married to Sansa, but it would take a bit of plotting hijinks to draw out that revelation.

If their marriage was legal, the fact that it was never consummated makes Tyrion and Sansa are eligible for annulment anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is interesting how much stock he seems to put in that song. It seems a bit strange to go around bragging that a girl sang a song for you but Westerosi culture in general seems to put more store in songs than we do.

:lol: It is one of the reasons I used to think that rape might have happened because the song here between them is also being used as a replacement for sex but I highly doubt it so its strange that he seems fixated on that.

Unless ........ (attention crackpot theory coming in)

What does the song signify for Sandor? Yes its used as a replacement for sex but the way it happens, the song she sings him, it is something more an emotional moment, and there is a moment of healing and compassion so that might be what he is proud of, that a girl like Sansa showed him love and in turn for Sansa that is a moment of forgiveness and reaching out, its traumatic but she overcomes that moment by being someone who is compassionate and understanding but the problem is this is not something that Sansa wants or desires, she puts the kiss in to change her role, rather than being a compassionate little girl, she becomes a woman .... this doesn't make sense :lol: it was supposed to though, it seemed like I was getting somewhere but then nothing happened :lol: maybe that is why Sansa adds in the kiss, she looks back at the night and all that build up and no kiss :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Doesn't he talk about it more than that? There's another chapter, I think the very first one after he captured Arya, where he laughed at her attempts to kill him and said that her sister sang him a song. Arya responded by telling him that he was lying.

It is interesting how much stock he seems to put in that song. It seems a bit strange to go around bragging that a girl sang a song for you but Westerosi culture in general seems to put more store in songs than we do.

You're quite right ^_^ I missed one. It's from Arya VIII or IX, right after the Hound captures her, attached below for anyone who's interested.

Seems to me he's trying to make the song sound vaguely euphemistic - as if he's taunting Arya that he perved on her sister as well as protecting her. He brags about the song like it's a favour Sansa bestowed on him, to make any leery behaviour sound a bit reciprocal, which would legitimise said perving. Pretty gross tbh.

In the fevered confession, he shows exactly how ashamed he is of "taking" the song: anything it might ever have signified was invalidated by the fact that it was "taken" rather than willingly "given". It all goes back to the wanting-to-be-wanted thing discussed in the other thread, basically. It's about her accepting him emotionally, not sexually.

“Didn’t you ever have a brother you wanted to kill?” He laughed again. “Or maybe a sister?” He must have seen something in her face then, for he leaned closer. “Sansa. That’s it, isn’t it? The wolf bitch wants to kill the pretty bird.”

“No,” Arya spat back at him. “I’d like to kill you.”

“Because I hacked your little friend in two? I’ve killed a lot more than him, I promise you. You think that makes me some monster. Well, maybe it does, but I saved your sister’s life too. The day the mob pulled her off her horse, I cut through them and brought her back to the castle, else she would have gotten what Lollys Stokeworth got. And she sang for me. You didn’t know that, did you? Your sister sang me a sweet little song.”

“You’re lying,” she said at once.

“You don’t know half as much as you think you do. The Blackwater? Where in seven hells do you think we are? Where do you think we’re going?”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

thanks for the welcome Été

Hey guys this is off topic but how come when i try to click on the members things i get an error screen telling me i don't have permission or when i try to look at someones profile i get the same thing?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey guys this is off topic but how come when i try to click on the members things i get an error screen telling me i don't have permission or when i try to look at someones profile i get the same thing?

None of us do. Some site features (like viewing profiles and the search function) have been deactivated temporarily. Server issues, seemingly - this forum is getting huge amounts of traffic post-GOT and -ADwD. I think they're moving soon, so they should be back up eventually.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seems to me he's trying to make the song sound vaguely euphemistic - as if he's taunting Arya that he perved on her sister as well as protecting her. He brags about the song like it's a favour Sansa bestowed on him, to make any leery behaviour sound a bit reciprocal, which would legitimise said perving. Pretty gross tbh.

I sort of think it was his own fantasy of sorts -- he wanted her to want to sing him a song (so instead of rewriting history) he chose to think about it as though she chose to sing it to him (and she did promise to sing him one, earlier) and that was why he talked about it that way. I thought he was using the euphemism for song/sex with Sansa in ACOK but that when he spoke to Arya about it this is not what he was thinking of. Then, at the end, he's hating himself for leaving her behind and he can't keep up the fantasy of her wanting him anymore. Make sense?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I sort of think it was his own fantasy of sorts -- he wanted her to want to sing him a song (so instead of rewriting history) he chose to think about it as though she chose to sing it to him (and she did promise to sing him one, earlier) and that was why he talked about it that way. I thought he was using the euphemism for song/sex with Sansa in ACOK but that when he spoke to Arya about it this is not what he was thinking of. Then, at the end, he's hating himself for leaving her behind and he can't keep up the fantasy of her wanting him anymore. Make sense?

I agree with you, but I still think there's something slightly unpleasant about his comments to Arya. On the stairs he made the song a drunken euphemism for sex; by the time we get to the scene in her bedroom, maybe he's confused himself about what he actually wants from Sansa. We all know he's hoping she'll give the dog a bone* but that's far from the only thing he wants from her.

The idea that she gave him a song gives him some kind of claim/power over her. It's nothing more than wishful thinking, and he never actually convinces himself that it's what really happened - so it draws an interesting parallel with Sansa.

*deeply sorry, I couldn't resist ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I sort of think it was his own fantasy of sorts -- he wanted her to want to sing him a song (so instead of rewriting history) he chose to think about it as though she chose to sing it to him (and she did promise to sing him one, earlier) and that was why he talked about it that way. I thought he was using the euphemism for song/sex with Sansa in ACOK but that when he spoke to Arya about it this is not what he was thinking of. Then, at the end, he's hating himself for leaving her behind and he can't keep up the fantasy of her wanting him anymore. Make sense?

This is what I was very poorly trying to get at before :lol: That for Sandor also the song has a symbolic meaning that he attaches to it and somehow directs his actions and emotions and the kiss might be Sansa's equivalent to that though I don't know why she needed to put a kiss there but they are both having some conflicted reactions to what actually happened and what they wish happened.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is what I was very poorly trying to get at before :lol: That for Sandor also the song has a symbolic meaning that he attaches to it and somehow directs his actions and emotions and the kiss might be Sansa's equivalent to that though I don't know why she needed to put a kiss there but they are both having some conflicted reactions to what actually happened and what they wish happened.

Hehe, that's what I was trying to say just now but you've put it much more eloquently :thumbsup: Thank you!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is what I was very poorly trying to get at before :lol: That for Sandor also the song has a symbolic meaning that he attaches to it and somehow directs his actions and emotions and the kiss might be Sansa's equivalent to that though I don't know why she needed to put a kiss there but they are both having some conflicted reactions to what actually happened and what they wish happened.

Oh wow I think you've just answered the burning question of why Sansa misremembers the kiss.

Songs for Sandor are obviously symbolic and special to him, so to have Sansa sing him one is a cherishable memory, even if he colors it some. For Sansa physical affection is equally precious, right? What if that's the reason she put in the kiss. Sansa at this point is still deeply rooted in her own reality, so maybe its because not only did she subconsciously want him to kiss her, but also because kisses are important to her and her world of songs and stories. The Hound sees their moment one way and Sansa another, but they both have to admit it's a night they won't forget.

As to why she continues to misremember the kiss even after her world of songs is completely torn from her: the Hound means something to Sansa, and the white cloak and the "kiss" are the only links to her old life as Sansa Stark and to him. What do you think?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with you, but I still think there's something slightly unpleasant about his comments to Arya. On the stairs he made the song a drunken euphemism for sex; by the time we get to the scene in her bedroom, maybe he's confused himself about what he actually wants from Sansa. We all know he's hoping she'll give the dog a bone* but that's far from the only thing he wants from her.

The idea that she gave him a song gives him some kind of claim/power over her. It's nothing more than wishful thinking, and he never actually convinces himself that it's what really happened - so it draws an interesting parallel with Sansa.

*deeply sorry, I couldn't resist ;)

Of course he's harping on the song - it's the only thing she ever gave him! Most of their interactions were brought about because of his job, or because he was suspiciously in the right place at the right time. She never sought him out. Later he regrets it of course but he still managed to get that song out of her.

As for Arya, I don't find it unpleasant. Arya's been a holy pain in the ass, trying to kill him and bash his head in with rocks and whatever. She's no match for him but still, how annoying! She's like a gnat. His telling her about Sansa singing for him is more like, "hey, your sister thinks I'm okay so calm the f*ck down." But, since he's eternally hopeless when communicating with females, it comes out kind of pervy. And, until his breakdown, the memory of that song probably did boost his ego. Like, hey, a pretty girl sang me a song. I'm sure he spent quite a while basking in the memory of her singing without dwelling on why she was singing to him in the first place.

Parallel: yup, Sansa's the original dream and Sandor's the original realist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alot of great theories floating around good thread. Maybe the song has become his conscience in a way, they say music calms the beast or in this case the hound. I know in my own life if a great rage or anger takes me listening to softer more down to earth music settles me. Maybe its become the only true peace he's ever known.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...