Ser Alaster Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 What did sansa mean by "he took a song and a kiss and left me nothing but a bloody cloak" in AFFC?I was completely lost when she said that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 What did sansa mean by "he took a song and a kiss and left me nothing but a bloody cloak" in AFFC?I was completely lost when she said thatShe's referring to Sandor Clegane, I believe. The only thing is, he didn't kiss her but she's convinced herself that he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Alaster Posted August 19, 2011 Author Share Posted August 19, 2011 Oh yeah I remember that, he wanted "the pretty little bird to sing for him"Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlespider Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 If you want to read a million theories on this question, Ser A, here are the threads:Part I:And Part II:Have fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzette Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 If you want to read a million theories on this question, Ser A, here are the threads:Part I:And Part II:Have fun!A million theories and still no answers. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Été Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 What did sansa mean by "he took a song and a kiss and left me nothing but a bloody cloak" in AFFC?I was completely lost when she said thatOh yeah, and re the bloody cloak, he'd been wearing his Kingsguard cloak in the battle, but tore it off and dumped it on her floor when he left, all covered in blood and soot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Theory: both the kiss and the bloody cloak represent the loss of illusions. In the case of the cloak, it no longer represents knightly virtue, and reflects Sansa's awakening to this realization as well. The kiss is part of an awakening too. It is a different kiss from the sweet, gentle ones, and she needs to radically reform her world view. However, much of this is happening unconsciously, and so Sansa's "rebellion" isn't something that is made immediately aware to the reader. The kiss is misremembered but she needs to invest in that memory to facilitate a revolt against her long held ideals. Hope this makes sense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlebird_ Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Theory: both the kiss and the bloody cloak represent the loss of illusions. In the case of the cloak, it no longer represents knightly virtue, and reflects Sansa's awakening to this realization as well. The kiss is part of an awakening too. It is a different kiss from the sweet, gentle ones, and she needs to radically reform her world view. However, much of this is happening unconsciously, and so Sansa's "rebellion" isn't something that is made immediately aware to the reader. The kiss is misremembered but she needs to invest in that memory to facilitate a revolt against her long held ideals. Hope this makes sense!So good to find another place to discuss this because I was just coming to this conclusion, what we never figured out was why is the mismemory so important and its exactly what you said there. Sansa is very internal so its hard to see how she's changing with her actions but in her subconscious she is changing and her changing descriptions of the kiss and the cloak are there to guide us with respect to that change.Since she was never about physical power we can not see her become a warrior by training, it was about losing ideals and replacing them with new convictions and the story of the kiss and cloak actually represent how her ideals about romance and knights have changed and it will be important because once she is able to return to being Sansa Stark she will return with these new convictions that have been developing subconsciously since ASoS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kissed By Bleach Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 I made myself crazy back when I first read the books, "Wait, when did the Hound kiss Sansa?!" Flipping back and forth through all the Sansa chapters, thinking maybe GRRM made a mistake. Thank goodness for the internet and all the information out there for clearing it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlespider Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 A million theories and still no answers. :(I do think the answer to the whole conundrum (after 2 full threads) can best be summed up by the line in the Dating Woes of Sansa Stark comic: "Sansa is not quite sure what happened, but she thinks she liked it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 So good to find another place to discuss this because I was just coming to this conclusion, what we never figured out was why is the mismemory so important and its exactly what you said there. Sansa is very internal so its hard to see how she's changing with her actions but in her subconscious she is changing and her changing descriptions of the kiss and the cloak are there to guide us with respect to that change.Since she was never about physical power we can not see her become a warrior by training, it was about losing ideals and replacing them with new convictions and the story of the kiss and cloak actually represent how her ideals about romance and knights have changed and it will be important because once she is able to return to being Sansa Stark she will return with these new convictions that have been developing subconsciously since ASoS.Exactly. This is why the whole issue of her misremembering is important I think. It does not come from a place of weakness (or madness) but rather from strength. She is in the process of reconceptualising what is important/meaningful in life. What it is that really has value. So Sandor's kiss didn't need to happen, because it is only important in how she uses it to reform her ideals. The old Sansa Stark was an unkissed maiden who believed in knightly virtue. The new Sansa Stark has experienced a kiss and is now in possession of a bloody cloak that proves much of the lies behind knighthood and honor. She is not rebuking Sandor, but rather, by wrapping the cloak around her, aligns herself with this view. (We had also discussed how she also uses Barristen Selmy's cloak to kneel upon)So the mismemory is the key which points to process of transformation/rebellion taking place in Sansa. If, as GRRM asserts, this is something of a habit with her, it is one which allows her to revamp her thinking and behaviour. The irony is that although she thinks that Sandor took a kiss and left a bloody cloak, she is now in possession of something more important: a more enlightened, mature perspective on life. A white cloak could not protect her, but a bloody one can. Real kisses lack meaning or value, but misremembered ones do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 I do think the answer to the whole conundrum (after 2 full threads) can best be summed up by the line in the Dating Woes of Sansa Stark comic: "Sansa is not quite sure what happened, but she thinks she liked it."Hahaha! I love this :) Yeah, basically sums it up! See above, for my continued long form version of this very astute summary! :rofl: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phreadde the Mummer Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 I've always felt that Sansa is, herself, misunderstood by many. She's not just an airhead... She's a personification of Romantic Idealism. She accepts as real things that aren't, because they further her view of the world as she wishes it were.I really think that her whole character is GRRM talking about the way we all twist reality when love and romance are concerned. Look at how she grabs and clings to promises and "truths" from obviously untrustworthy sources. She's blind to the vileness of Joffrey from the beginning of GoT when it becomes more and more apparent to all around her that he's a right total prick. She projects her images of stately, courtly love on the world around her, no matter how ugly, bloody, and wretched it really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Été Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Her arc words seem to be "life is not a song". I'd like her to get a happy ending worthy of one. ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzette Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 I do think the answer to the whole conundrum (after 2 full threads) can best be summed up by the line in the Dating Woes of Sansa Stark comic: "Sansa is not quite sure what happened, but she thinks she liked it."Lol :)I liked the idea it was more symbolic. I can't imagine it was just a typo. I am at a loss as to what else it could be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 I've always felt that Sansa is, herself, misunderstood by many. She's not just an airhead... She's a personification of Romantic Idealism. She accepts as real things that aren't, because they further her view of the world as she wishes it were.I really think that her whole character is GRRM talking about the way we all twist reality when love and romance are concerned. Look at how she grabs and clings to promises and "truths" from obviously untrustworthy sources. She's blind to the vileness of Joffrey from the beginning of GoT when it becomes more and more apparent to all around her that he's a right total prick. She projects her images of stately, courtly love on the world around her, no matter how ugly, bloody, and wretched it really is.This I think was once true, but I think she has undergone a very important transformation. She is no longer invested in these stately, courtly images. Her family destroyed, marriage to a Lannister, beating by knights... all of these things have shown Sansa that the world isn't a song. So the traditional symbols of a romantic world, kisses and cloaks, have been reconfigured by GRRM to reflect this transformation.What I think is also important is that Littlefinger imagines Sansa is completely friendless. He thinks he has broken her down, and that now she is totally dependent on him. He speaks of wrapping a cloak around her shoulder and having the whole North rally around her, but she has already wrapped a cloak around her own shoulders. He kisses her, but she is already thinking of another kiss. Yes, he can teach her about pawns and players, but I think she will decide where her future goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlebird_ Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Exactly. This is why the whole issue of her misremembering is important I think. It does not come from a place of weakness (or madness) but rather from strength. She is in the process of reconceptualising what is important/meaningful in life. What it is that really has value. So Sandor's kiss didn't need to happen, because it is only important in how she uses it to reform her ideals. So the mismemory is the key which points to process of transformation/rebellion taking place in Sansa. If, as GRRM asserts, this is something of a habit with her, it is one which allows her to revamp her thinking and behaviour. The irony is that although she thinks that Sandor took a kiss and left a bloody cloak, she is now in possession of something more important: a more enlightened, mature perspective on life. A white cloak could not protect her, but a bloody one can. Real kisses lack meaning or value, but misremembered ones do.THIS THIS THIS, I am so happy right now, we figured it out :D The kiss, the cloak, her mismemory are all part of her that is trying to reformulate her ideals, all her ideals have been taken away from her and for her to rebuild herself she needs to reestablish new beliefs but for the last two years she has only been a hostage, she has no independent experiences so she creates them in order to fit her new belief system, she was kissed and she was left with a cloak but this was not romantic and it wasn't about protection. The problem I had so far was figuring out how it was going to be important because I expected some sort of climax where it was revealed but that is not necessary, it is supposed to be subtle and it will resolve itself when she becomes comfortable in her new identity.So the traditional symbols of a romantic world, kisses and cloaks, have been reconfigured by GRRM to reflect this transformation.Exactly, I think even now when she thinks of the kiss people take it as Sansa being naive but the kiss itself is not the issue its how she describes it so GRRM is actually still having Sansa use the same images to describe the world (since she has no other reference point) but the meaning of those images and their symbolism has changed. Its actually very fitting for such an internal character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanbean4lyfe Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 What I think is also important is that Littlefinger imagines Sansa is completely friendless. He thinks he has broken her down, and that now she is totally dependent on him. He speaks of wrapping a cloak around her shoulder and having the whole North rally around her, but she has already wrapped a cloak around her own shoulders. He kisses her, but she is already thinking of another kiss. Yes, he can teach her about pawns and players, but I think she will decide where her future goes.Oh that LF, the dastardly villain... *swirls moustache*but he doesn't have a clue :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I know Littlebird! I feel so excited too! :) In my mind, I can put this whole issue to bed. And if TWOW comes out and GRRM throws us for a loop, we did our best! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Oh that LF, the dastardly villain... *swirls moustache*but he doesn't have a clue :DNo, he doesn't. I'm looking forward to his shock come the next book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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