The Rule of Robert (What went wrong?)

[One-Armed Bandit]

This could be a possible crackpot theory as far as reflection goes, but oh well...

Ya know, I've been thinking a lot about Robert lately and I've begun to put together reasons (other than the burden of rule) why he went downhill after he assumed power. It is actually a very simple reason, because of love. If memory serves me right, he was betrothed to Lyanna Stark when Rhaegar supposedly abducted her (thus creating the War of the Usurper). Although Robert won the battle (the war itself), he lost the war (Lyanna). Its my belief that it was this loss that caused Robert to drink excessively too often, sleep with one-too-many women, and become a glutton.

First off, Robert never wanted to rule, he only wanted to get Lyanna back (which was a disgrace to his honor that she was abducted). He never won her back. Instead, he got some woman that never really loved him (Cersei) and they handed him a realm to rule. I believe that his downward spiral to vices were caused less by the burden of rule but moreso by the love lost to Robert, that he indulged himself because deep down inside himself, there was a wound that would never heal, the loss of Lyanna. :cry:

So...what do you guys think of this? I'm not trying to claim that the burden of rule had nothing to do with Robert's decline, but I wanted to look at it from a different perspective.

[Gerold Hightower]

Robert was weak of character from the beginning. He fathered his first bastard when he was still with Jon Arryn in the Vale. He didn't lose Lyanna to Rhaegar. She never wanted to marry him because unlike Ned she saw his vices. Robert was just unfit to be king. Disaster was inevitable.

[Ashara Stark]

I think you are partially right I also think that the loss of Lyanna has been one of the causes for Robert to be such a bad king, but in my opinion the main cause has been Robert's personality. Jorah Mormont says that Robert would have been the perfect dothraki: extremely good as a battle commander but a disastrous ruler in peacetime.

Its my belief that it was this loss that caused Robert to drink excessively too often, sleep with one-too-many women, and become a glutton.

Robert slept with lots of women when he was bethroted to Lyanna, before Rhaegar "kidnapped" her

[Bill Idol]

robert was more fit to be king than any of the usurpers in my opinion, except for stannis, who by rights should be the king. or tywin should have been king. there was peace the whole time he ruled except for greyjoy's rebellion and he personally put an end to that i think. didn't he fight during the sack of pyke? maybe not, i forget, but anyway, robert was alright, he just had a wretched wife, and cruddy council except for his brothers and jon aryyn. i dunno if he was so head over heels in love with lyanna, he probably would've still been up in the brothels, but then again, he would've just been a lord, and never king, had she never been "kidnapped" by rhaegar, and died. who knows. he got the boar and the boar got him. but he was really reflective when he went to winterfell and into the crypts. maybe he really loved her and would have been faithful. maybe this, maybe that. maggy the frog knew though.

[The Mountain that Reads]

Robert's downward spiral was a result of the burden of rule that he didn't want, a Queen who didn't want him and a love that was forever lost.

Robert was a hugely misunderstood character. He indulged himself while he was betrothed because he wanted to get in that "one last fling" before getting married and I only recall one bastard from before becoming King, though I could be wrong. Maybe Lyanna loved him and maybe she didn't, she would have still married him and been the best wife possible to him had Rhaegar not intervened and Robert knows this in full. He loved Lyanna and even though I'm not sure he would have been the best husband for her, IMHO he would have been a decent and good husband. Rhaegar certainly wasn't any good for her since it resulted in the death of half of her family.

I hold Cersei responsible for most of Robert's downfalls. If she had understood that he was in mourning for a lost love when they wed and given him the benefit of the doubt, maybe she could have come to respect him (she's incapable of true love in my opinion). She wouldn't even give him children that were actually his and as a result, Robert searched elsewhere for a love to fill the gap that Lyanna left, resulting in his philandering and gluttony. Even the children he believed to be his own, the one's he attempted to raise as his own, couldn't stand to be with him even shortly after birth. He disregarded them because he was rejected by them and this was another blow to an already deeply depressed man. As a result, he fled into the arms of whores and mistresses, searching for the children he would never have from Cersei which wore on his conscious even more, resulting in his refuge in food, wine and merriment.

Add to this the fact that, with becoming king, he was now surrounded not by friends but by deviants who wanted nothing but to take advantage of him. That's why he took such special joy in finding a true friend such as Thoros of Myr, Jon Arryn or Eddard Stark.

Its obvious that Robert Baratheon was a deeply depressed man and showed signs of it throughout his reign. He may not have been the best man to rule but he showed more compassion than Tywin, more nobility than Jamie, and more humanity than Ned. Though he cannot be fully exonerated for his kingdom's fall into ruin, he can be forgiven because the situation he was thrust into would drive anyone into a similar state of mind, some of us would even choose to fall on our swords than continue such an existence which IMHO makes Robert a noble yet tragicly sad character.

[Lord Stormbringer]

I think you are partially right I also think that the loss of Lyanna has been one of the causes for Robert to be such a bad king, but in my opinion the main cause has been Robert's personality. Jorah Mormont says that Robert would have been the perfect dothraki: extremely good as a battle commander but a disastrous ruler in peacetime.

That's certainly true. But had he not been driven to self-destructive behaviour by his own demons things still might not have gone as badly. Jon Arryn was by all evidence a fairly competent Hand; Robert just undercut his prudence pretty badly. Robert doesn't need to be a personally great King to deliver a good kingdom, just appoint the right people. As it is he did alright and the problems that arose were at least as much other people's scheming as Robert's failings.

Robert slept with lots of women when he was bethroted to Lyanna, before Rhaegar "kidnapped" her

Which doesn't mean he doesn't care. Lyanna herself thinks that Robert would actually care about her, just not be able to stay faithful sexually.

[Baby Aegon]

I don't think Cersei or Lyanna had anything to do with it. Didn't the books explain this? Robert was good at waring and fighting, not leading a kingdom through peace. That side of things was boring so he went to women, drinking, and hunting, which he still found interesting, and left the tedious stuff to Jon Arryn. Now if the hand had been more competant, maybe the 7 kingdoms wouldn't be where it is now.

The real question is about Jon Arryns ability versus Robert Baratheons interfering. Robert appeared to have respect for Jon and so would have let him do his job. Jon was merely an adequate hand, not an exceptional one.

Now, besides surrounding himself with Lannisters, why didn't Robert apoint Tywin as hand?

[Moosicus]

The real question is about Jon Arryns ability versus Robert Baratheons interfering. Robert appeared to have respect for Jon and so would have let him do his job. Jon was merely an adequate hand, not an exceptional one.

IIRC Grand Maester Pycelle said to Ned that Jon was prudent but Robert didn't always listen to wise council, and Renly added that he loved feasts and tourneys and loathed counting coppers. Doesn't seem to me that Rob let Jon do his job at all. Jon would suggest the right thing to do and Robert would say "booooooorrrrrrriiiiiiinnnnng" and do whatever was more interesting, despite the cost.

[The Mountain that Reads]

Now, besides surrounding himself with Lannisters, why didn't Robert apoint Tywin as hand?

Because ultimately, he didn't trust the Lannisters. Jon Arryn and Ned Stark supported his entire campaign, while Tywin merely sacked King's Landing. KL was going to fall before Robert, the only question was going to be how long it took. The Lannisters did nothing for Robert's Rebellion when it all came down to it and Robert seems like the kind of guy who rewards his friends.

[Plessiez]

Robert didn't really go downhill as such. His character doesn't seem to have changed all that much since the Rebellion, it's just that the physical strain of the lifestyle he'd always adopted finally caught up with him. Whether or not he became King, I imagine he'd have developed in much the same way. Certainly as ruling lord of House Baratheon he'd have been expected to carry out the same sort of tedious tasks ("counting coppers") as when he was King. Yes, Ned seems to think that Robert's changed, but then Ned isn't really the best judge of character, is he?

I don't think Robert can even be said to have loved Lyanna - certainly his talks with Ned seem to suggest he didn't really know what she was like. How much contact would a nobleman be expected to have with his betrothed, anyway? Of course, after Lyanna dies he convinces himself he was in love with her, and maybe he really thought so at the time, but I think he was fooling himself. I definitely don't think Lyanna can be said to have loved Robert - she seemed resigned enough to marrying him, but then what choice did she really have? If some of the R+L=J theories can be believed, she was quick enough to elope with Rhaegar when it came to it.

(Yeah, I don't like Robert all that much.)

As for who would have a made a better king ... well, almost anyone really. Certainly Tywin and Stannis (prior to his conversion to R'hllor, anyway) would have done a more competent job, though they would probably never had the love of the smallfolk to the same extent. It's difficult to see how Renly would have been worse too ... at least he showed some genuine interest in running the Kingdom. I'd even go as far as saying that Aerys was a better King in some ways. At least until his final years he seemed content to leave the running of the Kingdom to people who knew what they were doing.

[Lord Stormbringer]

I don't think Cersei or Lyanna had anything to do with it. Didn't the books explain this? Robert was good at waring and fighting, not leading a kingdom through peace. That side of things was boring so he went to women, drinking, and hunting, which he still found interesting, and left the tedious stuff to Jon Arryn. Now if the hand had been more competant, maybe the 7 kingdoms wouldn't be where it is now.

I've never said that I thought Robert would have been very good at the job. He simply wasn't. But that's not the same as destroying one's self slowly now is it?

Robert clearly has a lot of issues, most of which revolve around Lyanna and the war; said issues really ate him alive. It seems to me that Robert's biggest problem was not his nature but the fact that those issues drove him to self destructive behaviour and he just happened to be in a position to take the kingdom down with him. Robert was a party hard scoundrel before the war, afterwards he was a drunken, death-wished lunatic. And that made all the difference between a lousy King that delegated to the competent and a psycho that took the Kingdom down with him.

The real question is about Jon Arryns ability versus Robert Baratheons interfering. Robert appeared to have respect for Jon and so would have let him do his job. Jon was merely an adequate hand, not an exceptional one.

Just like he respected Ned and let him do his job? Oh wait, he didn't. He forced his best friend to become complicit in his attempts to murder Dany and her unborn child. He forced his friend to host a huge tournament, with funds borrowed from people he loathed, to 'honor' him when he wanted no such thing. Not to mention he dragged his reluctant friend into a political snake pit he never would have entered by his own free will. Some how, I think Jon did a better job with a very difficult King.

Now, besides surrounding himself with Lannisters, why didn't Robert apoint Tywin as hand?

Because that would have just begged for a coup de tat? As it is the Lannister's he had were dangerous enough. Handing the keys to the kingdom to Pappa Lannister, who would readily usurp and murder him given the oppurtunity, is right up there for sure fire ways to die.

Robert didn't really go downhill as such. His character doesn't seem to have changed all that much since the Rebellion, it's just that the physical strain of the lifestyle he'd always adopted finally caught up with him. Whether or not he became King, I imagine he'd have developed in much the same way. Certainly as ruling lord of House Baratheon he'd have been expected to carry out the same sort of tedious tasks ("counting coppers") as when he was King. Yes, Ned seems to think that Robert's changed, but then Ned isn't really the best judge of character, is he?

Ned's a good enough judge of character, he's just too honorable for his own good. And he's not the only reason to think Robert went down hill; pretty much everyone that knew Robert of old has said he got worse.

I think there's a line between the kind of youthful, exuberant excess that characterized Robert when was younger and the gluttonous, self-destructive character of Robert after the war. It's pretty clear to me that after the war, certainly by the time we meet him, is acting out of self-loathing and hate. Ned's shocked at the alcoholic wreck that Robert's become and I think that represents a real change in the character and nature of his friend.

I think Renly, who was remarkably like Robert, is a mirror of the man Robert pretty much was. Sure he loves feasting, sexing, and the pageantry of state and chivalry. Okay, on the last Robert might have had a bit rougher tastes but the basics are the same. But Renly has self control and is prudent enough to know when to stop. He loves life and while he doesn't take it too seriously, he doesn't get carried away in unhealthy ways either. The fact that it's remarked that Renly was much like a younger Robert lends that a lot of credence.

I think it's fairly obvious that Robert did indeed take a turn for the worse. Call it post-traumatic stress from the war, guilt over Lyanna, heartbreak over Lyanna, or whatever. Robert clearly had his character take a turn for excess which fundamentally changed him.

I don't think Robert can even be said to have loved Lyanna - certainly his talks with Ned seem to suggest he didn't really know what she was like. How much contact would a nobleman be expected to have with his betrothed, anyway? Of course, after Lyanna dies he convinces himself he was in love with her, and maybe he really thought so at the time, but I think he was fooling himself. I definitely don't think Lyanna can be said to have loved Robert - she seemed resigned enough to marrying him, but then what choice did she really have? If some of the R+L=J theories can be believed, she was quick enough to elope with Rhaegar when it came to it.

Pure infatuation doesn't last sixteen years. I think he had genuine feelings of love for her. I mean come on, she seems exactly his type of woman; one that he could actually have a lasting (if not sexually monogamous) relationship with. He's carrying a torch after sixteen years, that takes something special.

Did she love him? I don't think so, definitely not with the same depth of feeling if she did. At most she seemed to have a little affection but not love. But that really doesn't have much of a bearing on whether Robert really loved her or not. And with out knowing her motives in the eloping with Rhaegar, it seems a tad unfair to speculate.

[Ashara Stark]

The real question is about Jon Arryns ability versus Robert Baratheons interfering. Robert appeared to have respect for Jon and so would have let him do his job. Jon was merely an adequate hand, not an exceptional one.

Actually I think Jon Arryn was an exceptional Hand. He managed to keep the seven kingdoms united and in peace (with the exception of the Greyjoy's Rebellion) until he died

[Plessiez]

I think Renly, who was remarkably like Robert, is a mirror of the man Robert pretty much was.

In appearance, certainly. Not so much in behaviour though. Renly doesn't seem anything like as fond of tournaments as his elder brother, and much more at ease with the game of thrones. Don't think he fathered quite as many bastards as Robert either (for obvious reasons).

This is actually an example of how Ned is a poor judge of character, I think. When Renly shows him that picture of Margaery, Ned assumes that he is doing so because he believes himself to be similar to Robert. In fact, he is just playing the game ... something Robert would never do.

Pure infatuation doesn't last sixteen years.

Not be itself, no. I'd wager that if Lyanna had lived he'd have grown tired of her soon enough. The fact that she died (after supposedly being abducted by Rhaegar) is, I suspect, the reason he is still so obsessed with her.

And with out knowing her motives in the eloping with Rhaegar, it seems a tad unfair to speculate.

Well yeah. Fun though.

[Lord Stormbringer]

In appearance, certainly. Not so much in behaviour though. Renly doesn't seem anything like as fond of tournaments as his elder brother, and much more at ease with the game of thrones. Don't think he fathered quite as many bastards as Robert either (for obvious reasons).

There are certainly some differences. For one thing, Renly has grown up as court, as part of the royal family, not just expecting to be one of the great lords. That's bound to have influenced him into seeing the necessity of being able to play the Game of Thrones. On the other hand, Stannis knows politics (loathes them), the business of governing, and plays the game. So I can't help but think that Robert was turned against it simply by the way things fell out. He may not have been hands on, but neither do I think he would have had the active loathing were it not for his personal demons.

This is actually an example of how Ned is a poor judge of character, I think. When Renly shows him that picture of Margaery, Ned assumes that he is doing so because he believes himself to be similar to Robert. In fact, he is just playing the game ... something Robert would never do.

I think it's more, as you say, that Ned just doesn't get politics. So because of that he doesn't comprehend Renly's intentions, and thus ascribes them a motive he can understand, imitating his older brother. I think it would be more accurate to say that Ned is naive rather than a bad judge of character.

Not be itself, no. I'd wager that if Lyanna had lived he'd have grown tired of her soon enough. The fact that she died (after supposedly being abducted by Rhaegar) is, I suspect, the reason he is still so obsessed with her.

Maybe, I'm not entirely convinced of that. I believe he probably would have committed sexual infidelities but whether he would have bored of her and stopped caring is a whole other matter. I think he could and probably did genuinely love her.

[Grumpygoat]

I like Robert, I really do. He seemed to be a great friend to have - the sort of guy that liked just about everybody. Ol' stick in the mud like Ned? His best of friends. Drinking partner like Thoros? Another good friend. Heck, if there's one thing Robert really was good at, it was picking just the right sorts of friends - many of those he befriended were vastly different people in some ways, as Thoros and Ned show. However, both characters are exceedingly decent, humane people. I doubt Robert recognized that on an external level, but somewhere inside, he could see the best in people, and loved them for it.

He was quick to laugh, to love, and, while he was swift to anger, he was often just as swift to forgive. He sounds like the best of people to have as a friend, and the sort of person who wouldn't give you a choice on the matter, anyway - once he decided you were his friend, that was that.

But...

He was always a whoring, drinking, brawling lech. He'd fathered Mya Stone while he was still living in the Vale. When he's described by Meera in her tale about the Knight of the Laughing Tree, he's drinking it up. Robert was a man of action and, no sooner did he have a thought, but he followed it through.

It's easy to say you'd love someone always and forever when they're dead. But while they were living, Lyanna was highly dubious about Robert's fidelity. She may have liked him, but I don't think she ever loved him. Were they to have married, there's no reason to believe Robert would have changed. Even good, solid ol' Davos admits he's slept around on his wife a bit, and he's one of the most faithful men in the series. When even his betrothed doesn't think he can remain faithful, I don't think there's any reason for anyone else to, either.

Furthermore, outside of the battlefield, Robert was spineless. When Tywin presented Elia's children to him, he couldn't bring himself to acknowledge the evil Ned pointed out. The same thing happened years later with Viserys and Dany, when Ned couldn't counsel him out of sending murderers after them. When Lady was to be killed, Ned said Robert should do it - certainly something Cersei probably wouldn't have cared about, and something Ned said Robert should do, yet Robert couldn't bear to. Worse yet, he later admitted to Ned that he figured Joffrey was lying.

When it came to difficult decisions, Robert was the sort to run and hide. He shirked responsibility.

The assessment of Robert's character comes from a number of sources. Ned himself acknowledges at least some of Roberts flaws. Lyanna does, as well. Jorah Mormont. Barristan the Bold. All of these fairly sound judges of character (Lyanna really has no evidence to that fact, being the one observation, but it doesn't seem out of line to mention it).

Of course, as king, Robert did have two factors working against him: Cersei and Jon Arryn.

Cersei's the easy one. She was vicious and spiteful and actively tried to keep Robert away from her children. A woman more accepting of his infidelities probably would have made a better wife for Robert, as well as one who wasn't quite so protective of her children (at least to their father).

Then again, to try and say that Cersei should have been the one to change is just BS. Both parties were to blame for that screwed up relationship. If Robert were a bit more loving of Cersei, and a little more understanding, she may have given him some trueborn children, and none of the mess that happened in A Game of Thrones may have occurred. Cersei and Robert are both at fault.

Then there's Jon Arryn. Yes, I do believe he was a rather wise, prudent man. Although the marriage with Cersei wasn't exactly the best idea in the long run, I don't think he could have known how terribly things would go when he arranged it. It wasn't a bad marriage choice...per se.

Heck, Jon Arryn didn't seem a particularly great judge of character. I do believe he was wise but there's Cersei for one...then Littlefinger. That was a poor decision.

However, Jon seemed to lack the capability to tell Robert "No." When Robert intended on killing children, Ned told Robert to piss off and refused to be his Hand. When push came to shove, Ned stood his ground. I don't think that Jon Arryn did. I imagine he'd counsel something smart ("How about we don't hold a tourney, Your Grace?") and Robert would ignore him ("Hey, Littlefinger, find me the coin for a tourney.")

Robert really needed someone who'd tell him no, and someone he loved or respected. Robert was effectively a spoiled kid in a mans body. Prone to temper tantrums, horny as a teenager, a great lover of playing games in the forms of tournaments, and just the sort of person who needed a parent to watch over him.

What I think Roberts downfall was is this: He needed someone to be king for him. Because he wasn't a great one himself. Yes, he was better than Aerys - Robert didn't boil people in plate armor just because their son proved to be a little headstrong. But Robert was a spineless, irresponsible king during peacetime. Give him a war and he'd win it, but anything else? Not so good.

Robert was always ill-suited to be king. The quality of his rule weighed almost entirely on the quality of his Hand.

[Grumpygoat]

In appearance, certainly. Not so much in behaviour though. Renly doesn't seem anything like as fond of tournaments as his elder brother, and much more at ease with the game of thrones. Don't think he fathered quite as many bastards as Robert either (for obvious reasons).

This is actually an example of how Ned is a poor judge of character, I think. When Renly shows him that picture of Margaery, Ned assumes that he is doing so because he believes himself to be similar to Robert. In fact, he is just playing the game ... something Robert would never do.

Ned's a fairly good judge of character. I don't think, without spending more time in court, that he could've realized Renly just wasn't the sort interested in women, and Renly did play up at being Robert just a bit.

To note, though, Renly certainly did seem fond of tournaments. When Renly was marching towards King's Landing, they feasted at every hall and were amidst a tournament when Catelyn arrived. The only aspect Renly didn't especially follow Robert on was making bastards. And, even then, while Loras seemed to love Renly with all his heart, I'm not sure Renly was quite the same; something about the man just came off as "slut."

[Colder Hands]

Cersei is the yoko ono of aSoIaF. she comes in splits up ned, robert and jon arryn (the beatles if you will) and it all goes to shit, then robert gets killed like lenon

[Plessiez]

He'd fathered Mya Stone while he was still living in the Vale.

He also fathered a bastard on a woman in the Stoney Sept (around the time of the Battle of the Bells), come to mention it.

Heck, Jon Arryn didn't seem a particularly great judge of character. I do believe he was wise but there's Cersei for one...then Littlefinger. That was a poor decision.

Agreed with Cersei - a much better plan to reunite the realm after the war would have been to appoint Tywin as Hand and have Robert marry someone from the Reach or Dorne, I think (not sure if there were any suitable candidates at the time though). But Littlefinger? He was certainly an able Master of Coin, and while he might have been too ambitious for his own good, that wouldn't have been a problem in the normal run of things.

However, Jon seemed to lack the capability to tell Robert "No."

This was the main problem I think ... Jon Arryn was almost a father to Robert, and not the sort of person needed to manage him. That said, I obviously disagree that Robert needed a parental figure to watch over him. He had that, and it didn't work. What Robert really needed was someone who was confident enough to stand up to him when necessary, but loyal enough not to actively work against him as King.

To note, though, Renly certainly did seem fond of tournaments. When Renly was marching towards King's Landing, they feasted at every hall and were amidst a tournament when Catelyn arrived.

Watching tournaments, yeah. That's part of being a king, and all the pomp of the role no doubt flattered Renly's ego. Other than the big tournament in GoT though, I can't think of that many occasions on which Renly took part in such things himself though. He certainly wasn't as enthusiastic about that sort of thing as Robert - I always thought he took part more as a chance to show off than anything else.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I'd even go as far as saying that Aerys was a better King in some ways.

Agreed. I think Robert was a better human being than Aerys (not difficult - Cersei is a better human being than Aerys), but an even worse ruler. Aerys may have been a madman, but he was at least a cost-effective madman - Robert on the other hand inherited a treasury "flowing with gold", only to then reduce the realm to bankruptcy. Quite apart from anything else, this made Littlefinger (not exactly the most trustworthy individual) totally indispensible to the Crown (though Littlefinger does deserve some credit for trying to keep the realm financially solvent), and made the Crown heavily dependent on the goodwill of its Lannister creditors. And that is even before we find out the full ramifications of the situation vis-a-vis the Iron Bank. Westeros will probably to live for generations with the legacy of Robert's financial screw-ups; Aerys, as cruel as he was, did not leave such a terrible long-term effect.

[Plessiez]

I think the general idea of Aerys being a really bad king largely arises from the fact that he targeted a lot of the major noble houses (as he saw them as enemies, I guess). The smallfolk, who weren't really affected by this, but did benefit from Tywin's stint as Hand, seem to remember him much more fondly. Makes me think Danaerys might actually have a fair bit of popular support when she invades.