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The Rule of Robert (What went wrong?)


One-Armed Bandit

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Err, didn't Aerys butcher a whole bunch of semi-rebellious peasants? Or at least want to, anyway?

Barristan admits Aerys was fairly decent when he was younger, but between the ruler whose actions bankrupt his nation, and the ruler whose actions inspire revolt, I'll name Robert the better king.

Aerys also wanted to burn King's Landing to the ground. Only Jaime prevented that.

Aerys was definitely the worse of the two. Much as it pains me to say it, what good came out of Aerys' rule I'd likely attribute to Tywin.

The worst that can be said about Robert is that he never really bothered trying to rule his kingdom, and just used it for his personal pleasures. The worst that can be said of Aerys is that he was a vicious, psychopathic murderer who intended on burning up...oh, is it tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands that live in King's Landing? Anyway, intended on burning thousands upon thousands to death, deliberately killed perfectly innocent men, and seemed mostly motivated by spite.

And I do think it's worth noting Robert's rule came with a decades long summer, one of the longest in Westeros. I think that's indicative of something - while there was a lot of build-up for everything going to crap when summer ended, I'd imagine, during that time, things were fairly idyllic. In general, if not specifically. The books give a general feel that summer time also equates to a not only warmer world, but a better one to live in.

So while I don't think Robert was a particularly good ruler, he's certainly better than Aerys was.

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Cersei's the easy one. She was vicious and spiteful and actively tried to keep Robert away from her children. A woman more accepting of his infidelities probably would have made a better wife for Robert, as well as one who wasn't quite so protective of her children (at least to their father).

Yeah, she should have been also more forgiving of a husband who beats, rapes and retches over her. How bloody forgiving a woman you want? Lol, if Cersei did things right and cannot be blamed for, it's being unfaithful to Robert and killing him, that's for sure.

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The worst that can be said about Robert is that he never really bothered trying to rule his kingdom, and just used it for his personal pleasures.

Nah, you can say much worse about Robert if you try.

The worst that can be said of Aerys is that he was a vicious, psychopathic murderer who intended on burning up...oh, is it tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands that live in King's Landing?

Oh, absolutetly. The point is that the smallfolk don't know about any of this. Thus, they remember Aerys more fondly than Robert, however misguided this might be. This is backed up by a couple of Arya's chapters, I think.

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Yeah, she should have been also more forgiving of a husband who beats, rapes and retches over her. How bloody forgiving a woman you want?

Actually, I made all those points over in the Cersei thread, I believe.

Both of them needed to give a little. The fact is, Robert wasn't going to stop whoring around. Then again, Cersei was banging Jaime. Both needed to try loving each other at least a little bit. But Robert was too chicken and irresponsible, Cersei too hateful.

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I was never so alive as when I was winning this throne, or so dead as now that I've won it. And Cersei . . . I have Jon Arryn to thank for her. I had no wish to marry after Lyanna was taken from me, but Jon said the realm needed an heir. Cersei Lannister would be a good match, he told me, she would bind Lord Tywin to me should Viserys Targaryen ever try to win back his father's throne." The king shook his head. "I loved that old man, I swear it, but now I think he was a bigger fool than Moon Boy.

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."

The loss of Lyanna cannot be considered since without her mysterious "abduction" there would be no reign of Robert Baratheon.

The subsequent marraige to the incestuous Cersei binding Robert to the Lannisters was the equivalent to putting aluminum oxide on the Graf Zeppellin and is without doubt the flaw to his reign.

Yes, Robert's character was flawwed, but without the incestuous wife and Lannister influence he would have been more open to sound advice. As it was he just wanted relief from the stress of being married to Cersei so he gave in to her demands and ran off to play.

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I never got why Robert gets such a bad rep from what i've seen he was a great king and warrior. He loved Lyanna and had a nack for having women fall inlove with him so i'm sure their marrage would have been a great success he may have even given up the whoring for her (but it was considered completely exceptable for Lords in Westeros to see the occational whore anyways and i dont see why people despise him so for that when every other Lords in westeros is guilty of the same). However after her death he just couldn't let go which is why Cersie could never bring herself to love him that and her school girl love for the Dragon Prince. Having a bitch wife like Cersie that you cant devorce would drive any man to the bottle and the brothel more often. Robert seems the greatest of the character i've seen in Westeros he liberate the people from the Mad King he put a stop to the piracy of house Greyjoy, and for peacetime he put intelligent men inchare of overseeing the day to day drivil of the relm and only interferred in matter of importace. Not to mention he was such a commanding figure that he could take his blood thursty enemies and make them his most loyal men. The only character who came close in this regard was Robb. So sixteen years later he put on a few pounds he was still as strong as ever he could probably still smash anyone with his hammer who dared try there luck against the King.

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Okay, I can't really pass up an opportunity to bash Robert, so...

He loved Lyanna and had a nack for having women fall inlove with him so i'm sure their marrage would have been a great success
Well, he certainly had a knack for having teenage whores fall in love with him. However, his comments to Ned pretty much show he had no (or very little) idea of what Lyanna was actually like as a person. That's not the basis for a successful marriage, to my mind.

he may have even given up the whoring for her
Yeah, and Tyrion could be due for a really late growth spurt.

(but it was considered completely exceptable for Lords in Westeros to see the occational whore anyways and i dont see why people despise him so for that when every other Lords in westeros is guilty of the same).

I'd actually say that while young lordlings are expected to frequent whores, the behaviour is at least somewhat frowned upon when practiced by married lords(certainly, it's the sort of thing that would be impolite to mention, so there's definitely some sort of social pressure against it). However, that's really immaterial. Nobody despises Robert for sleeping with whores, the point is normally only brought up to counteract claims that Cersei is a 'slut' for sleeping with ... what, three men other than her husband?

However after her death he just couldn't let go which is why Cersie could never bring herself to love him that and her school girl love for the Dragon Prince.

No need to point out the irony here, I think. One could just as easily say that after Rheager's death, Cersei just couldn't let go which is why Robert could never bring himself to love her ... that and his school boy love for the wolf girl.

Having a bitch wife like Cersie that you cant devorce would drive any man to the bottle and the brothel more often.

Robert didn't exactly need to be driven to these things, now did he?

Robert seems the greatest of the character i've seen in Westeros he liberate the people from the Mad King

Firstly, the people didn't exactly need to be liberated from Aerys .. prior to the rebellion, he hadn't done much to them. Unless by "the people" you mean "some friends of Robert's" of course. Robert's motives here are purely selfish. He went to war with Aerys to save his own life and to attempt to win back his betrothed. "Liberating the people" never crossed his mind.

he put a stop to the piracy of house Greyjoy

Said piracy wouldn't even have started if Robert hadn't overthrown the Targaryens.

and for peacetime he put intelligent men inchare of overseeing the day to day drivil of the relm and only interferred in matter of importace.
Important matters like throwing tourneys and ordering the deaths of children, you mean? I wouldn't say that Robert picked intelligent men either ... the only noticeable intelligent men at his court was Littlefinger and Varys, neither of whom were picked by him (and neither of whom were particularly loyal to him, either).

Not to mention he was such a commanding figure that he could take his blood thursty enemies and make them his most loyal men.

Pity he wasn't commanding enough to help raise his children, isn't it?

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I think Robert is kind of the classic "peter principle".....one who is promoted to the level of their incompetence.

Robert was a great warrior by all accounts but he simply didn't have the self discipline or good people sense to be a king.

And he lived in the past.

His past love and his past glory.

Even his choice of Ned Stark as Hand was rooted in the past. No thought given to how appropriate a guy who's not been to court for years, doesn't know the current players well at all, actually might be?

I don't have much pity for Robert really and I agree with one of the above posters....Lyanna was convenient excuse but at the end of the day

his responsiblity, once he sat on the throne was to Westeros and all he did was shuffle it off on to Arryn while he played and partied.

As for Cersei, you can't blame her for Robert any more than you can ,blame Rober for her... they're grown people, responsible for their behaviors.

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Well, they were hardly his children anyway

Which is irrelevant, of course- he lived and died believing that they were his.

but he was concerned with them, enough that he expressed serious fears about Joffrey to Ned.

And why had things progressed to that point? Because he had utterly neglected the crown prince in his formative years, which is not a good idea if you want to be confident in your successor. His concern was too little, too late.

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Wacky theory?

Yes, and lacking any evidence whatsoever, I'm inclined to ignore it.

Perhaps because everytime he did do something, Cersei thwarted it? He certainly knew about the cat thing, and cared more the she did. So I don't think he was completely ignorant.

Well, we know that Cersei wasn't able to "thwart" Robert from beating the shit out of Joffrey when he killed the cat. When he decided to actually do something, he pulled far more weight than her. She only had such influence over Joffrey because Robert simply didn't care.

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Really Robert was not cut out to be king. Donale Noyce says it best, Robert when not warring simply decayed. And he was never a man of principals to begin with.

But Roberts raiseing up against Areyes was not out the frame of reason. He was not called the mad king for nothing, as he was constantly cutting himself on his throne, and would not allow any swords near him (exsept ironically the kings gurde). Aryes had also just executed the Lord of Winterfell and his heir along with several other ranking nobles. When Aryes called for Robert and Neds heads there is little that one could do exsept rebell. Aryes in his later years was a threat to himself and the entire realm. "Roberts" rebellion was justified. Of course a more interesting and safer aprouch would have been for Ned to seek out Rhagar personally and find out what the hell was going on with the dragonprince and Lyanna. Then either rescue Lyanna then or convince Rhagar that his father was nuts.

Of course Robert and Cersi was just a mistake. While Jon Arran had a good idea to bind Tywin to Roberts cause, Jon should have let Robert find his own conduit to forget Lyanna. Indeed it would have been best to marry Robert to a lesser lady, someone with less pride. The fact that Robert loved whoreing more than anything else should have put the Cersi relationship out of Jon's mind.

Well, we know that Cersei wasn't able to "thwart" Robert from beating the shit out of Joffrey when he killed the cat. When he decided to actually do something, he pulled far more weight than her. She only had such influence over Joffrey because Robert simply didn't care.

Well she did threaten to kill Robert in his sleep if he ever hit Joffrey again... So she had some influence over Robert.

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Well, we know that Cersei wasn't able to "thwart" Robert from beating the shit out of Joffrey when he killed the cat. When he decided to actually do something, he pulled far more weight than her. She only had such influence over Joffrey because Robert simply didn't care.

Robert was a coward when it came to Cersei. He outright admitted he thought Joffrey was lying, but sentenced Lady to death, anyway.

When Robert actually defied Cersei, it was either impulsively, or because he was drunk.

Otherwise, he was spineless when it came to anything even resembling "responsibility," and he quailed from any fights that didn't involve him smashing someones chest in with a warhammer.

The cat incident came before Cersei told him she'd murder his face off if he did anything like that again. And once she had? I recall no other tales or scenes with Joffrey getting disciplined by Robert.

With that said, Robert wanted little to do with his kids, to all appearances. That involved too much responsibility, which was Roberts biggest failing.

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As for Cersei, you can't blame her for Robert any more than you can ,blame Rober for her... they're grown people, responsible for their behaviors.

Cersei's character is solely the main reason for the problems of Robert's reign. Had Jon Arryn made a different match, the kingdom would have been ruled quite differently.

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Except for the part about Robert's own bastards liking him, but Cersei's children not.

Except that Joffrey worshipped him, and I'm sure that gentle Tommen and Myrcella loved him. And even if that were true, it wouldn't mean a thing. :lol:

Beating the shit out of him? I don't see how you get that description from what we've heard of the incident

You're right. He just knocked out a few teeth- how foolish of me to call it a beating.

Joffrey would have gone to his mother who would have instantly gone to the "must protect my son mode" and invalidated Robert's punishment as an instructive measure.

Again, such measures of hers were effective only because Robert did not consistently do his fatherly duty.

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Cersei's character is solely the main reason for the problems of Robert's reign. Had Jon Arryn made a different match, the kingdom would have been ruled quite differently.

And also may have erupted into war again, with Tywin conspiring to tear down Robert - the Ironborn being the most likely allies, and potentially any loyalists to the Targaryens willing to overlook the Sack of King's Landing. Tywin was considered the most powerful lord in Westeros. And no, I doubt naming him Hand would've appeased him. Not to mention, Tywin's exactly the sort to arrange an "accident" for whoever may have been Roberts wife. I think Tywin wanted the Lannisters to be kings one day, and with Roberts relatively tenuous hold on the throne, a match with Cersei or a war with the Lannisters were the options Robert likely had.

And most of the flaws that made Robert a bad king were flaws he had before Cersei.

Robert was the main problem with his reign. He'd have needed to marry someone like the Queen of Thorns to have had success as a king, or perhaps named Ned as his Hand rather than Jon. Someone just about as wise, but not willing to put up with Roberts crap.

Oh, and in regards to Robert beating Joffrey - Stannis thought Robert may have killed him. It sounded like just one blow, but anything that looks like a potentially killing blow qualifies for "beating the shit out of" in my book.

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And also may have erupted into war again, with Tywin conspiring to tear down Robert - the Ironborn being the most likely allies, and potentially any loyalists to the Targaryens willing to overlook the Sack of King's Landing.

It is esentially inviteing either a festering cancer into the heart of the court by makeing a potentialily disastrous marrage to Cersi, or risk angering Tywin who in his own words had forsaken house Targaryen forever. Had Tywin attempted to rise up he could yes maybe have gained the support of the Ironborn, but he would have been against the might of the North, Vale, Riverlands, and Stormlands for a certanty. Drone would have stayed out of the matter. Highgarden may have gone either way, but what could Tywin have offered Mance? Would total war be worth a refused marriage?

Had Tywin tried more subtle methods Robert would still be a better position as he would not be surronded by Lannisters (in his bed, and his squires).

Robert was a bad king and a worse father. But he was also a damn sight better than Aeryes... Well barely...

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I think the hint about the bastard children responding to Robert when his own cried was more indicative of the problem. None of his children ever seemed close to Robert to me. One single incident where Joffrey mistakenly tries to get his father's approval is not enough, considering Joffrey's behavior otherwise. Or after his father's death.

(I could even argue that Joffrey's attempt just shows how he and his purported father were so disattached).

The thing is, there's more than a single incident. When discussing tactics or some such with Tywin, Cersei, Joffrey himself, and others in attendance, Joffrey calls Tywin a coward and says that at least Robert was brave enough to kick the Targaryens teeth in.

I don't think Joffrey ever openly admitted to looking up to his father for a number of reasons - Cersei's disapproval, the fact that Robert didn't seem to like him, anyway, and Joffrey's own character, which is a rather smug, self-important one resistant to admitting seeing anyone as a peer, much less someone to aspire to be.

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I don't think Joffrey ever openly admitted to looking up to his father for a number of reasons - Cersei's disapproval, the fact that Robert didn't seem to like him, anyway, and Joffrey's own character, which is a rather smug, self-important one resistant to admitting seeing anyone as a peer, much less someone to aspire to be.

But he seemed to favor Robert over the rest of his family.

No Joffery did not love his "father." I do not think he is capable of love honestly. Joff cobbled together his own set of values, from Robert's boldness to Aegon the Unworthy's love of whoreing. Cersi did not do anything to teach or guide her children, which is probably good or Tommen and Myrcella would be as bad as Joff. The whole Bartheon Lannister union was a bad idea made worse by horrible parenting. Hell Robert himself should have been convinced by Jon to stop trying to be king and focus on riseing Joff into a better person, like haveing him foster with the Starks from a young age.

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Cersei's character is solely the main reason for the problems of Robert's reign. Had Jon Arryn made a different match, the kingdom would have been ruled quite differently.

So where is the evidence that Robert would have bothered to make an effort at being king if he had instead married a woman willing to put up with his obnoxious behaviour with a smile and to fake it in bed with him?

Because I don't see any.

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