The Rule of Robert (What went wrong?)

[Lord Stormbringer]

Considering there's so much we don't know, I just don't understand why so many people judge him so favourably. Jorah Mormont sold people into slavery. Hardly a recommendation. Barristan stayed with Robert for quite some time after the rebellion. If Robert was so much worse than Rhaegar, why did he only leave after Robert's death, and even then only when Joffrey fired him? Why is it obvious that Robert is wrong and these two aren't?

Because come right down to it Eddard Stark, Robert's best friend and Lyanna's brother, does not support Robert or agree that Rhaegar abducted and raped her. Of all the living people in the world, Eddard is the one who has the closest thing out there to the whole truth. He was with Lyanna when she died and has the knowledge of her death bed confession. And he thinks well enough of Rhaegar. That little detail, combined with his hatred for Jaime over a chair, suggests that Robert's belief is either misinformed or Eddard out and out lied.

Is Rhaegar a saint, certainly not. He did a lot of stupid and pretty callous things. He can rightly be blamed, at least under modern standards, for a lot of crimes of omission as well. But the sheer number of people that speak well of him suggests that he was not a kidnapper, rapist, or nutcase like his father.

Thanks, but I believe Lord Stormbringer covered them much better than I did. In fact, I suspect you may actually be referring to his post!

Thank you.

[Mormegil]

Because come right down to it Eddard Stark, Robert's best friend and Lyanna's brother, does not support Robert or agree that Rhaegar abducted and raped her. Of all the living people in the world, Eddard is the one who has the closest thing out there to the whole truth. He was with Lyanna when she died and has the knowledge of her death bed confession. And he thinks well enough of Rhaegar. That little detail, combined with his hatred for Jaime over a chair, suggests that Robert's belief is either misinformed or Eddard out and out lied.

Ah, yes. Ned's opinion is a lot more valid than Barristan's or Jorah's, IMO. Especially considering the other two were talking to Dany, while Eddard was thinking to himself. Still, Ned does not seem to regret the rebellion and, clearly, explicitly, thinks Stannis is the rightful king after Robert's death. That's his honest opinion, considering that we once again explicitly get to see that it is not the politically smart or the easy answer. He has many regrets and thinks many things that happened in the Rebellion were wrong, but the death of Rhaegar doesn't seem to be one of them. That suggests to me that he can't have thought of Rhaegar as being better than Robert overall. I certainly can't imagine Ned saying (or thinking) that "the wrong man came back from the trident". Since we agree that out of all the characters we've seen he is the closest to knowing the truth, I think the world could do with a little less Rhaegar worship.

Is Rhaegar a saint, certainly not. He did a lot of stupid and pretty callous things. He can rightly be blamed, at least under modern standards, for a lot of crimes of omission as well. But the sheer number of people that speak well of him suggests that he was not a kidnapper, rapist, or nutcase like his father.

Many people still speak well of Robert too. Donal Noye and Maester Cressen, to name two. Ashara convinced me that he might be called a rapist (although not on the level of, say, Gregor Clegane), but I'm not at all convinced that "the wrong man came back from the trident".

<edit> Interesting how this works... I find myself being rationally able to condemn Robert, but emotionally I'm still rooting for him. I'm not sure why. Still, I don't approve of Rhaegar rationally OR emotionally.

[The Mountain that Reads]

Ah, yes. Ned's opinion is a lot more valid than Barristan's or Jorah's, IMO. Especially considering the other two were talking to Dany, while Eddard was thinking to himself. Still, Ned does not seem to regret the rebellion and, clearly, explicitly, thinks Stannis is the rightful king after Robert's death. That's his honest opinion, considering that we once again explicitly get to see that it is not the politically smart or the easy answer. He has many regrets and thinks many things that happened in the Rebellion were wrong, but the death of Rhaegar doesn't seem to be one of them. That suggests to me that he can't have thought of Rhaegar as being better than Robert overall. I certainly can't imagine Ned saying (or thinking) that "the wrong man came back from the trident". Since we agree that out of all the characters we've seen he is the closest to knowing the truth, I think the world could do with a little less Rhaegar worship.

Of course Ned doesn't regret the rebellion, his father and brother and friends were tortured and killed at the hands of the King, do you think he WOULDN'T support the rebellion under those conditions?

And before I continue my thoughts, was Lyanna found before or after the sacking of King's Landing and Robert officially claiming the throne?

[The Mountain that Reads]

After. The scene at the Tower of Joy indicates that King's Landing had been taken, and that the siege of Storm's End was lifted.

That's what I thought but I wasn't sure.

Therefore, up to that point Ned would have thought that Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna against her will and may have been doing only the Seven know what. And having lost his father and brother to the King, Ned would have done anything to get his sister back from the Prince. Depending on what theory you believe, when Ned finally finds Lyanna and realizes that she (maybe) went along with Rhaegar willingly and then actually (perhaps) consented to have his child, it would have cast a new light on Rhaegar that would have been previously unknown to Ned but since Rhaegar is already dead, its a sad misfortune that can't be fixed unless Ned reveals the child's true identity, betrays his best friend and says "Well, we slaughtered all those people for no reason and my family died for nothing", which Ned wouldn't accept or do because of his honor. At that point, Rhaegar would have simply looked very misunderstood in Ned's eyes perhaps even a noble man depending on how Rhaegar and Lyanna actually interacted, though again, this theory depends on if you believe that Lyanna married Rhaegar and had his child, aka Jon Snow.

[Ashara]

She wants a man that'll throw children out of a window for sex with her. I think that says all that needs be said about her taste in men and her relationship prospects.

Actually, I am with Cersei on her taste in men up untill her "cute boys" phase.

I understand Rhaegar. I would have fallen for Rhaegar along with half-the-Westerous women of the child-bearing age. He is a dream any way you look at him.

I can understand Jaime. I have seen plenty of arguments against Jaime, but for me, Jaime is the single most attractive still alive man of Westerous. The important thing for me is that Jaime is not malicious, and not only feels but does what is right even if it is against all rules. He is also surprisingly selfless. He is chivalrous in a proper way - when it's needed and when it counts. He definetly knows what love is (unlike most of men there) He is... well, Jaime.

Cersei lost my compassion when she became unfaithful to Jaime. Plain and simple. I sort of can rationalize that she is perhaps chaising her fleeing youth with Lancel and Waters, and both do remind her of the greater men she loved earlier, but still, she lost me there and then.

[CelticBrennus]

The important thing for me is that Jaime is not malicious, and not only feels but does what is right even if it is against all rules.

Yeah, like throwing little boys off of high places. Hell, not even Cercei wanted him to do that.

[morgoth]

Yeah, like throwing little boys off of high places. Hell, not even Cercei wanted him to do that.

I don't understand what it is that is trying to be established here.

What we know:

Jaime has been a dispicable human being up until his release from Riverrun. He's chucked kids out of castle windows. Banged his sister. Impregnated her and lived the lie along with her that the children were Robert's. He killed a king that he was sworn to protect with his life. Even after his release from Riverrun he still bagged Cersei in the Sept after Joffrey's death (which was beautiful).

Since then...he made Ser Loras think about the happenings in the pavilion with Renly and Brienne instead of allowing Loras to kill her on the spot. He released Brienne, gave her a sword and a parchment from Tommen stating that she was about on king's business. He has defied Cersei, his father and released his brother (a condemned killer) from the dungeons. He captured Riverrun without bloodshed between himself and Tully or Stark. He also appears to be throwing Cersei out of his life by crumbling up her plea for him to go to KL. (THIS IS JUST A BRIEF SYNOPSIS).

Cersei wasn't a fan of throwing the boy out of the window...true. Cersei (I believe) sown some enmity between Robert and Ned Stark. Cersei...she speaks for herself. She is truly evil and has proven herself a victim of paranoia and granduer. Could she be bi-polar??????? Cersei wishes to be the 1 ruler in the realm and was willing to stomp on whoever she had to in order for that to happen. She erred and now it's her ass.

So tell me...what is trying to established here? She would've sold anyone down the river for power including her family.

[The Mountain that Reads]

So tell me...what is trying to established here? She would've sold anyone down the river for power including her family.

The long and short of it: Cersei's a b!tch

Let's hope she meets a terrible ending at the hands of lil' Miss Stoneheart.

[Ashara]

For about the hundredth time: Jaime's only true evil deed was pushing Bran after he caught him. His instinct is right: to save Bran. Then Cersei shrieks, and he pushes him out - to protect his woman. Protecting is a very strong impulse in him: he protects Tysha, he protects Tyrion, he instinctevly wants to protect Aerys' wife, he protects the folk of the King's Landing, he protects Cersei, he protects Brienne. It's just how he is made.

Bran is "some kid" against Cersei and his own three. He comes to regret it. He loses his hand which he consideres a punishement for the act (he says so to Brienne).

Killing Aerys, loving Cersei, fathering children on her are hardly "crimes". Killing Aerys was a heroic act, and he did love Cersei, truly and deeply. So, sorry, but I don't chalk it against Jaime. Hmm, maybe I should put it in my signature for future references?

Cersei, unfortunately, proved to be not a tragic figure like Jaime, but a cowardly, silly and irrational female. A pity, truly. I truly wish there was more to her than spite and stupidity.

[CelticBrennus]

Bran is "some kid" against Cersei and his own three. He comes to regret it. He loses his hand which he consideres a punishement for the act (he says so to Brienne).

I have been here for about 5 years now, on and off. You are the first person I have ever seen defend Jaime’s choice to try to kill Bran.

The love between Jaime and Cercei was wrong. They knew it was wrong. They knew that if they were caught, it could plunge the realm into civil war and kill tens of thousands of people. They kept it up anyway. Thats all you need to know about their relationship.

[Plessiez]

You are the first person I have ever seen defend Jaime’s choice to try to kill Bran.

Not really a defence, calling it his "only true evil deed". In fact, I'd say you're closer to doing so yourself ... if Jaime doesn't kill Bran after he and Cersei are caught in the act, he risks plunging the realm into civil war and killing tens of thousands of people, after all. From a strictly utilitarian persepective, killing Bran is the right thing to do at that point.

[morgoth]

The long and short of it: Cersei's a b!tch

Let's hope she meets a terrible ending at the hands of lil' Miss Stoneheart.

I agree, reading mountain. Unfortunately, I don't forsee her having the pleasure of meeting Stoneheart. Logistically speaking and seeing the bind that Cersei is in now I don't see it being a plausible ending for her. Not that I don't have similar hopes. I don't see Cersei getting out of that cell by any other means EXCEPT by an army breaking her out. After Jaime throwing away Qyburn's letter from Cersei I am of full belief that he is NOT coming to her aid.

I'm not a big fan of Jaime either but I certainly like him more than Cersei, Bolton and Walder Frey.

He's another one that I hope doesn't get the luxury of dying of natural causes.

[Ashara]

He did something evil. He served his sentence for it and lost a limb. Crime and punishement. Justice done.

I consider love between Jaime and Cersei, same as love between Rhaegar and Lyanne, Eddard and Ashara, Jaime and Brienne... Poetic. Romantic. Tragic. Star-crossed. Fascinating. I think when people risk their heads for love, well, I admire that.

[Lord Stormbringer]

Ned's anger at Jaime, considering what he know now, doesn't speak well for him, instead it just makes Ned judgemental and unforgiving.

Which if it isn't turned on Rhaegar then there's a pretty good indication right there that he is not the monster Robert believed him to be.

And Ned absolutely does support Robert. He may not think Rhaegar raped Lyanna, but there's no question whatsoever that the Starks stand behind the Baratheons. And I'd be willing to bet that at one time Ned did believe Rhaegar abducted and raped Lyanna.

I meant supported Robert in that Eddard clearly does not believe in slaughtering the Targs to the last man for being evil, in condeming Rhaegar (his silence speaks volumes), or in his general hatred for the Targs. On all of those he's either silent or actively opposed, which given Ned's character speaks volumes.\

If you're talking about Eddard supporting Robert's Rebellion (which was actually Jon's) then of course he did. If nothing else the brutal murder of his father and brother, Aerys's attempts to murder him and Robert, and the fact that he was generally living down to his moniker of the Mad King are all good reasons to fight. It's quite noticeable once you pay attention that Ned and Robert's reasons for the war are very different; Ned definitely looks at the larger picture.

[morgoth]

Not really a defence, calling it his "only true evil deed". In fact, I'd say you're closer to doing so yourself ... if Jaime doesn't kill Bran after he and Cersei are caught in the act, he risks plunging the realm into civil war and killing tens of thousands of people, after all. From a strictly utilitarian persepective, killing Bran is the right thing to do at that point.

You can argue against that by simply saying that it was a little boy's word against a queen,s and a member of the Kingsguard (Jamie was part of the kingsguard then, wasn't he?). They could have denied anything that they wanted to deny. Who knows if Ned Stark would believe Bran? Ned didn't believe Arya when she told him about the people in the dungeon tunnels talking about killing another hand of the king.

[Lord Stormbringer]

Anyway I can delete this?

[morgoth]

For about the hundredth time: Jaime's only true evil deed was pushing Bran after he caught him. His instinct is right: to save Bran. Then Cersei shrieks, and he pushes him out - to protect his woman. Protecting is a very strong impulse in him: he protects Tysha, he protects Tyrion, he instinctevly wants to protect Aerys' wife, he protects the folk of the King's Landing, he protects Cersei, he protects Brienne. It's just how he is made.

Bran is "some kid" against Cersei and his own three. He comes to regret it. He loses his hand which he consideres a punishement for the act (he says so to Brienne).

Killing Aerys, loving Cersei, fathering children on her are hardly "crimes". Killing Aerys was a heroic act, and he did love Cersei, truly and deeply. So, sorry, but I don't chalk it against Jaime. Hmm, maybe I should put it in my signature for future references?

Cersei, unfortunately, proved to be not a tragic figure like Jaime, but a cowardly, silly and irrational female. A pity, truly. I truly wish there was more to her than spite and stupidity.

Ashara, I must disagree with you. You don't consider incest an evil deed? He is part of the BIG LIE that could've thrown the realm into civil war and would have. This whole mess would've never come into being if he and Cersei never had children. Arryn would've never had reason to suspect which in turn Ned Stark would've never had a reason to suspect. It all comes down to that. If Cersei would've borne just one of Robert's children she may have been able to get away with it.

Consider this...My woman and I are robbing a bank while my woman is executing bank patrons...one of the patrons is a cop. He pulls his service pistol on my woman and I turn around and shoot him before he shoots my woman. Am I a good guy for that? I killed a person in the process of committing a crime. Jaime and Cersei were committing a crime(s): incest, adultury and fraud. You also have to remember that these aren't just some commoners swingin' at some country barn dance. They are MAJOR NAMES AND FIGURES IN THE REALM. LANNISTER, QUEEN.

You mentioned 'fathering her children.' He did not. He's the biological father and that is all. If he's such a father then why do the children refer to him as uncle (other than the obvious reason that they don't know)?

Killing Aerys was NOT heroic. He didn't kill him for the realm because if he did then why did he sit on the iron throne afterwards only to get up when Ned Stark commanded him to? He killed Aerys for many reasons...Aerys didn't trust the Lannisters and that is why he kept Jaime with him all of the time. Jaime was more of a 'hostage' to Aerys. Aerys would've had Jaime killed before the sack was complete if he would've acted fast enough. Jaime took a solemn oath to defend the king. He broke his oath. Ser Barristan did not break his oath. He fought until it was a futile. He went before Robert and Robert honored him for his gallantry in battle and pardoned him.

Jaime did love Cersei...I will not dispute that.

Cersei is a silly, stupid, power hungry bitch who is going to get hers and I can't wait to read about it.

[Plessiez]

Who knows if Ned Stark would believe Bran? Ned didn't believe Arya when she told him about the people in the dungeon tunnels talking about killing another hand of the king.

To risk dragging things over from a different thread: There's a marked difference between your eight your old daughter saying she overheard a wizard plotting against you and your twelve year old son saying he saw the Queen and her brother wrestling naked.

The first is clearly just the work of a child with an overactive imagination (well, unless you've read earlier chapters, which isn't exactly an option Ned had). The second however is pretty plain ... maybe people wouldn't have believed it, but it would certaintly have caused problems.

[cybroleach]

Okay, I can't really pass up an opportunity to bash Robert, so...

Well, he certainly had a knack for having teenage whores fall in love with him. However, his comments to Ned pretty much show he had no (or very little) idea of what Lyanna was actually like as a person. That's not the basis for a successful marriage, to my mind.

Or maybe we just dont see enough of Lyanna to know if she had that side as well.

No need to point out the irony here, I think. One could just as easily say that after Rheager's death, Cersei just couldn't let go which is why Robert could never bring himself to love her ... that and his school boy love for the wolf girl.

That's true enough it's really a two sided coin.

Firstly, the people didn't exactly need to be liberated from Aerys .. prior to the rebellion, he hadn't done much to them.

He'd done enough. And there was Duskendale.

Just because most people were intorerante to Aerys dosn't make his accentricies any less real.

Said piracy wouldn't even have started if Robert hadn't overthrown the Targaryens.

There's no prof of that.

Important matters like throwing tourneys and ordering the deaths of children, you mean? I wouldn't say that Robert picked intelligent men either ... the only noticeable intelligent men at his court was Littlefinger and Varys, neither of whom were picked by him (and neither of whom were particularly loyal to him, either).

Really pray tell then who appointed Varys to Robert's court then? He was loyal enough to keep Robert alive as long as he could till Ned got in the way. Most people agnolage Jon, Stannis, Pyrcell and Renly as an intelligent men but i guess you feel somewhat differently.

Pity he wasn't commanding enough to help raise his children, isn't it?

Really all of his children we see are fine upstanding people thanks to his help.

[Lord Stormbringer]

Actually, I am with Cersei on her taste in men up untill her "cute boys" phase.

That's great for you but her taste in men still runs to the deeply flawed and rather evil. Besides, her taste in men has little to do with the men but rather how well the enhance her standing and what they're willing to do for her. As I've said before, deeply screwed up.

I understand Rhaegar. I would have fallen for Rhaegar along with half-the-Westerous women of the child-bearing age. He is a dream any way you look at him.

Understandable. But he's still done a lot of bad things and sat around while even more were done. Knowing he knew about Dear Old Dad's penchant for roasting people alive and did nothing really takes the luster off. The whole screwed up affair with Lyanna is just icing on the cake.

I can understand Jaime. I have seen plenty of arguments against Jaime, but for me, Jaime is the single most attractive still alive man of Westerous. The important thing for me is that Jaime is not malicious, and not only feels but does what is right even if it is against all rules. He is also surprisingly selfless. He is chivalrous in a proper way - when it's needed and when it counts. He definetly knows what love is (unlike most of men there) He is... well, Jaime.

Attractive or not he's a sociopath. He flung a kid to what should have been death off a window. His response to Tyrion's kidnapping is to go out and committ murder; which could have easily wound up with Tyrion dead. He's still lying to keep his bastard offspring on the throne; he's still fighting for a cause he knows to be a lie, and he's willing to lawyer it up to the greatest extent possible to evade his oath. Jaime has come a long way. But until he confesses the whole thing and apologizes and sincerely repents of all of it, then it's just not good enough.

He done a lot of bad, bad, bad things.

Cersei lost my compassion when she became unfaithful to Jaime. Plain and simple. I sort of can rationalize that she is perhaps chaising her fleeing youth with Lancel and Waters, and both do remind her of the greater men she loved earlier, but still, she lost me there and then.

And the incest and murder and treachery and egotism and failed parenting and temper and stupidity didn't do it? Huh.

For about the hundredth time: Jaime's only true evil deed was pushing Bran after he caught him. His instinct is right: to save Bran. Then Cersei shrieks, and he pushes him out - to protect his woman. Protecting is a very strong impulse in him: he protects Tysha, he protects Tyrion, he instinctevly wants to protect Aerys' wife, he protects the folk of the King's Landing, he protects Cersei, he protects Brienne. It's just how he is made.

I would say that Jory Cassel would argue different but he's a little dead.

I would say that Robert would argue different but he's a little dead.

Jaime was immediately complicit in both their deaths. Both of them were unjustified murder, flat out. And that doesn't even begin to tally the fact that he was an incestous affair which produced three children who were promptly passed off as another mans. You may not call that evil but I would certainly call it that.

And never mind his horrible complicity in the gang-rape of Tysha! You can't call that anything but absolutely vile. His participation is bad enough but the fact that he held it secret for how many decades? At least two. That's easily up there with Bran for utterly wretched acts. If not just for Tyrion but for Tysha whom he knew to be completely innocent.

He did something evil. He served his sentence for it and lost a limb. Crime and punishement. Justice done.

Except that it's one crime on a very long list.

Come back to me when he's been gang raped by an entire barracks, and Cersei. That'll be a start for Tysha.

Come back when he can no longer walk, that'lll really make up for Bran.

Come back when he's dead. That'll make up for Jory.

I consider love between Jaime and Cersei, same as love between Rhaegar and Lyanne, Eddard and Ashara, Jaime and Brienne... Poetic. Romantic. Tragic. Star-crossed. Fascinating. I think when people risk their heads for love, well, I admire that.

If the affair had results in a number of murders, at least one attempted murder, and a civil war I'd be more inclined to forgive it (creepy as hell though it is). But it did and it's quite horrible for it.