Howland Reed and Arthur Dayne

[Lord Damian]

I wonder how Ser Barristan would fare, in his prime against the legendary Dayne. It is all but implied, that Barristan is the last of the great kingsguards. The rest are just like some second stringers that had to fill the roster.

[Iron Captain]

I wonder how Ser Barristan would fare, in his prime against the legendary Dayne. It is all but implied, that Barristan is the last of the great kingsguards. The rest are just like some second stringers that had to fill the roster.

Well to be fair Jaime (pre-injury) was supposedly every bit the fighter of the former Kingsguard members, but didn't possess the honorable character traits of his predecessors.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Ned, from what we know was a pretty good fighter on his own. He admitted that Ser Arthur Dayne bested him and would have killed him but that is almost the same predicament for anyone who faced Dayne. I would love to see the whole fight at the tower of joy played out in some fashion by Howland Reed telling someone as he is the only survivor of that ordeal since the death of Ned in AGOT.

Me too. I'm thinking that some explanation or description has to come eventually. We know the "gist" but I'd love to see how the actual fight went down.

[Bran The Burner]

You guys have to find the Howland Reed Superwarg theory. It is about the best crackpot EVAR produced by this website and I like it a lot.

Summary: He wargs into Dayne driving Dayne insane, allowing Ned to kill him, but is somehow incapacitated by the act.

So basically this theory says that Howland used the Force (or Greenforce) in a way that would make Obi Wan look like a second class hypnotist? Well, I really liked it. It fits well with one my favorite crackpot theories that Howland is a Yoda-like character with awesome powers who lives in a swamp and who is going to teach Jon Snowalker about his past and how to use his latent warging abilities.

Maybe after Jon's (attempted) murder he flees to to the Neck trying to find Greywater Watch and is found by Reed

[corbon]

Ned, from what we know was a pretty good fighter on his own.

Really? What is your source? (HBO changed it quite a lot).

Ned is described by GRRM as an adequate or mediocre swordsman (I can't remember which), not nearly as good as Brandon, who may have been the best of the Starks but wasn't exactly well known as a swordsman since we've never heard anyone say how good he was or what tourneys he won etc except that he was better than Ned.

[Which Tyler]

I think what happens in a mass battle like Blackwater is different from what happened at the ToJ. There were only 3 men still standing at the end: Stark, Dayne, and Reed. We know Reed was not much hand to hand, so it seems unlikely he and Dayne were engaged. From what I understand, Ned was on the verge of being killed by Dayne when Reed somehow intervened. It seems unlikely he snuck up on Dayne: they were standing outside a tower, not much distraction. This is why it seems likely to me that Reed used a missile, given the crannogmen's proficiency with arrows. But this is just a theory.

As you say, they're outside a tower, plenty of room to manouvre.

Now try defending against an armoured man in front of you, with sword and shield AND against a lightly armoured man skipping around you, with greater reach, trying to hamstring you, trip you, find a weak spot in you armour with a spear. If Howland just distracts Dayne for an instant with a dangerous thrust that needs parrying, then Ned's got an opening. If Howland gets a clear throw of his net, then Dayne is limited in his movements (please note, he doesn't need to creep up on Dayne and wrap him up, he throws it, and tries to get a limb trapped in the net, it doesn't need to win outright, just provide enough distaction/impediment to give Ned an opening). Plate armour has weak points, especially the inside of joints, such as the back of the knee - reasonably easy to target with a spear, from a safe-ish distance when you're fighting 2 on 1.

there are any number of ways that Howland can buy Ned time, provide an opening, distract/impede Dayne without resorting to poison, trickery, magic or insane fighting abilities.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Yet Jaime seemed to think that Arthur Dayne could take out 5 trained knights with one hand while pissing with the other. I would think Ned Stark and Howland Reed would be nothing to him. It was 3 against 8 and Dayne would have won unless Reed did... whatever he did. I would also think that, technically, intervening in a one on one fight to the death is dirty tricks, no? I got the sense, from Ned's brief description, that they were in single combat and Reed just did something unexpected. I did NOT get the sense that Reed was engaged in hand to hand combat with Arthur Dayne at all, b/c then he would likely have been injured or dead, and there is no mention of him being injured in the battle. Hence, my theory that he used a missile weapon. It fits with what we know of crannogmen too, so Reed isn't a ninja: he's a sniper.

[Cotter_Pyke]

Hello all :),

Long time reader of the books and long time lurker on these forums ;)

Remember Ned??

Honourable Ned?? I do not think Ned will would allow poison, bows or nets in this affair.

This one's hand to hand, bloody and nasty...

At least that's my conclusion of based on Ned's character and fevered dream :)

[Bran The Burner]

Yet Jaime seemed to think that Arthur Dayne could take out 5 trained knights with one hand while pissing with the other. I would think Ned Stark and Howland Reed would be nothing to him. It was 3 against 8 and Dayne would have won unless Reed did... whatever he did. I would also think that, technically, intervening in a one on one fight to the death is dirty tricks, no? I got the sense, from Ned's brief description, that they were in single combat and Reed just did something unexpected. I did NOT get the sense that Reed was engaged in hand to hand combat with Arthur Dayne at all, b/c then he would likely have been injured or dead, and there is no mention of him being injured in the battle. Hence, my theory that he used a missile weapon. It fits with what we know of crannogmen too, so Reed isn't a ninja: he's a sniper.

They were seven, not eight. And until told otherwise I won't believe that Ned would use or would allow someone from his group to use a dirt trick to win the fight, we know too much about his honor and what it meant to him for me to believe that he would taint it. I think maybe Howland being a small cranogman was ignored by the combatants of both groups until the end and when Dayne tried to kill Ned he intervened, and maybe Dayne exhausted by a long fight was unable to fight even a fresh cranogman. Try to swing a long sword for half an hour and see what happens, even the best swordsman is useless when his strenght is gone.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Is using a bow and arrow automatically a dirty trick?

[Claude The Sweetling]

It was 7 against 3. All grown men with swords and armor, some lords, some knights, and all battle tested I presume. What do you think happened? Ned only allowed one person to attack at a time? "I will fight Dayne alone. Howland, you fight Hightower, and guys, dont interfere, seriously, its not honorable, one on one only"?? Ten guys swinging swords in a small area can get pretty confusing as well.I dont find it that hard to believe that they beat the KG.

[Lady Mummer's farce]

Meera says to Bran "that he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear." So we know he know that he knows magic. Then he visits the Isle of Faces and stays with the "green men" all winter, when he was younger. I wonder if that could mean anything...maybe he used magic.

[Darth Dragonstone]

Hello all :),

Long time reader of the books and long time lurker on these forums ;)

Remember Ned??

Honourable Ned?? I do not think Ned will would allow poison, bows or nets in this affair.

This one's hand to hand, bloody and nasty...

At least that's my conclusion of based on Ned's character and fevered dream :)

That part in bold was key to me. I was struck by how terse and melancholy Ned was when he mentioned Dayne's death, and then Ned's over the top effort to return Dayne's sword to his family when by rights he could have kept it.

Ned shows far more remorse at his role in Dayne's death than is warranted, unless.......he did not beat Dayne in a fair fight...unless Reed did something unchivalrous to tip the balance, perhaps using a net to hinder Dayne's mobility, or a rope to snag a leg and knock Dayne to the ground, or throwing mud or sand into Dayne's eyes....or poison, or trident, or yada yada yada. The method is not what matters. It is clear that Reed got credit for making the difference and he most likely, both in reality and in context, would have used some tactic and/or device that would have been frowned upon by a true knight.

Ned was able to live with himself because he had to get past Dayne to save his sister, so it was ends justifying means. But Ned is still a man of honor who has more than a little regret about his role in the death of Dayne.

and the best evar crackpot theory about Reed warging into adversary to make latter more vulnerable is priceless....

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

It was 7 against 3. All grown men with swords and armor, some lords, some knights, and all battle tested I presume. What do you think happened? Ned only allowed one person to attack at a time? "I will fight Dayne alone. Howland, you fight Hightower, and guys, dont interfere, seriously, its not honorable, one on one only"?? Ten guys swinging swords in a small area can get pretty confusing as well.I dont find it that hard to believe that they beat the KG.

There were only 3 of them left by then, so it wasn't 10 men swinging swords. It was the greatest knight of all time, Ned, and Howland Reed.

[Nihilist]

They were seven, not eight. And until told otherwise I won't believe that Ned would use or would allow someone from his group to use a dirt trick to win the fight, we know too much about his honor and what it meant to him for me to believe that he would taint it. I think maybe Howland being a small cranogman was ignored by the combatants of both groups until the end and when Dayne tried to kill Ned he intervened, and maybe Dayne exhausted by a long fight was unable to fight even a fresh cranogman. Try to swing a long sword for half an hour and see what happens, even the best swordsman is useless when his strenght is gone.

They were fighting with unfair odds, but you won't believe that they would use a trick to win....OK.

[lynxx]

Loyal HR, a Stark bannerman, pinked Dayne in the sword arm with his frog spear, thereby weakening him so Ned was able to finish him off.

That's my take on the situation.

[Claude The Sweetling]

While this was not a major battle,it also was not a "one on one" "single combat" skirmish. There are few details so we cannot assume that Dayne was the last to die. However I imagine that is what happened (for glory or romance sake). 7 went against 3, that right there tells us that ned did not care about playing fair. Why would he? he thought he was trying to sae his sisters life. He clearly warned them, and they chose to fight. No one with ned would have cared (had they lived) that hovwland interefered in a batlle, I pressume thats why Ned brought him along, right?

Has the story even mentioned quick acting poison in combat. I know joff died quick from eating and stannis' measter and there are poisend coins that kill quick, but, as far as I remember, only slow acting poison has been used in combat.

[Malkan]

if Howland had poisoned arrows then he was pretty stupid to use them at the end of the fight after 5 of his companions were dead, why didn't he put one in Dayne's eye at the start of the battle and save everyone some trouble?

Also this is not LOTR, where one man can kill a 20 meter elephant all by himself, Dayne can't kill 5 people with his left hand, maybe Jaime you know was exaggerating so loras gets the point of Dayne being a really good fighter, Jaime is one of the greatest fighters also and we all see how good he was with his left hand

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

if Howland had poisoned arrows then he was pretty stupid to use them at the end of the fight after 5 of his companions were dead, why didn't he put one in Dayne's eye at the start of the battle and save everyone some trouble?

Good point. But then, you could argue that in a melee, it's tough to draw a bead on someone without hitting one of your own guys. When it's down to one on one, it's a lot easier. I mean, whatever he did, he could have done earlier, no? Trip someone, net them, whatever. Yet no one else lived besides him and Ned (barely). Whatever he did, for some reason he did not do it until the last minute.

Also this is not LOTR, where one man can kill a 20 meter elephant all by himself, Dayne can't kill 5 people with his left hand, maybe Jaime you know was exaggerating so loras gets the point of Dayne being a really good fighter, Jaime is one of the greatest fighters also and we all see how good he was with his left hand

Syrio Forel took out 5 guys with a *practice sword*. Sometimes a dude IS that badass. Of course, Jaime may also be exaggerating, but it's not outside the realm of possibility that one guy could take out 5.

[Claude The Sweetling]

Think about thier conditions though, maybe they were hungry or tired or grieving from the lost war. No telling how long they were at TOJ, were they well supplied? Obiously not if it was only them three left and L Strak was dying in the dorne sun. Ned was fighting for his sister and Roberts Kingdom and his companions were fighting for ned. What exactly were the KG fighting for?

Also, where were the KG going to go? They could not leave L stark, and there king and prince were dead. Ned could have said "OK, wait here and Im gonna go back,find my army and get about ten more guys, and then we will fight"

Ned brought Howland for a reason, he was not a helpless child, clearly he brought somehting to the table. If he was that much of a liability, Ned would have told howland to stay behind.