Redemption - Only for Guys?

[NotSoSilentSister]

Redemption - only for guys?

When people trash G.R.R.M for his Stark-and-reader-torturing ways, they often neglect that ASOIAF does indeed contain highly satisfying elements for readers: G.R.R.M might not be big on fluff, and Happily Ever After or even poetic justice, but he's really good with redemption character arcs, see Jaime, the Hound, and now

even Theon

. We haven't seen anything compareable with any of the female characters so far however and I really hope that's going to be remedied soon.

Considering that many of the female characters are quite reviled by the fan base, I'd be interested in your opinion about their redeemability. Cersei/Melisandre/Catelyn/Dany/Sansa/Arya-Haters represent! Is there anything these gals could do to redeem themselves à la Jaime?

What could be the potential catalyst for female redemption? Would the mechanics for female redemption differ from the male template? (So far it seems to be: gut-wrenching ordeal + humiliation + opportunity to stand up for less jaded, purer, more innocent character designed to re-awaken nobler instincts). The Hound gets Sansa, Jaime gets Brienne,

Theon gets Jeyne Poole and Tyrion gets Penny

- Cersei has already had her ordeal and her humiliation, I think she's overdue for her very own morality pet!

Could you imagine any of the male characters we've encountered so far as morality pets for the female villains? (I would love Jon or Davos as morality pets for Melisandre.) If not, why not?

[Faramir of Winterfell]

I really hope that Cersei never gets redemption. The reason I like reading about her is that she is completely evil and twisted inside. I would argue that her lust for power transcends her love and care for her children. Her craftiness really keeps the whole "game of thrones" idea rolling. I would like to see her eventually die though.

[seanbean4lyfe]

It seems to me that most of the ladies start off good and then slowly start to piss us (me) off. SO opposite redemtion? Because GRRM hates women... :worried:

Except Sansa and Cersei I suppose but Cersei is past redemption and Sansa is on her way. If she kills LF she will be my hero.

[brashcandy]

Redemption - only for guys?

When people trash G.R.R.M for his Stark-and-reader-torturing ways, they often neglect that ASOIAF does indeed contain highly satisfying elements for readers: G.R.R.M might not be big on fluff, and Happily Ever After or even poetic justice, but he's really good with redemption character arcs, see Jaime, the Hound, and now

even Theon

. We haven't seen anything compareable with any of the female characters so far however and I really hope that's going to be remedied soon.

Considering that many of the female characters are quite reviled by the fan base, I'd be interested in your opinion about their redeemability. Cersei/Melisandre/Catelyn/Dany/Sansa/Arya-Haters represent! Is there anything these gals could do to redeem themselves à la Jaime?

What could be the potential catalyst for female redemption? Would the mechanics for female redemption differ from the male template? (So far it seems to be: gut-wrenching ordeal + humiliation + opportunity to stand up for less jaded, purer, more innocent character designed to re-awaken nobler instincts). The Hound gets Sansa, Jaime gets Brienne,

Theon gets Jeyne Poole and Tyrion gets Penny

- Cersei has already had her ordeal and her humiliation, I think she's overdue for her very own morality pet!

Could you imagine any of the male characters we've encountered so far as morality pets for the female villains? (I would love Jon or Davos as morality pets for Melisandre.) If not, why not?

Great post, and really interesting question. I do agree that nearly all of the major male characters have had a redemption arc that has been characterised as you put it by a loss of their manhood/identity which is then reinstated or at least refigured through their interaction with another female character who is in need of help or assistance.

I've spent some time defending Dany against what I think are sexist arguments by both males and females who see her as a wayward upstart/slut with dragons. On a whole, male characters are at least given given a lot more room for error and indecision.

Cersei is an interesting case. For the most part, GRRM has presented her as cruel and self-serving. However, I've always felt that Cersei has been given the shitty end of the stick sometimes. Yes she is power hungry and wicked, but we never seem to spend much thought on what made her become like this, and we seem to readily accept that unlike her brother she is unredeemable.

I do think though, that unlike the other male characters who rely on females as "morality pets" as you put it, GRRM has instead gone the route of having his female characters negotiate their own path to redemption. Sansa chose not to go with the Hound, Cersei was deserted by all her male relatives and has to depend on virtual zombie, Catelyn became Lady Stoneheart, Arya has gone to train with Faceless Men,

the last image we have of Dany is her standing next to her own dragons, having gone through her own personal hell in the wilderness. She tried to depend on Hizdahr, and we see how that went.

and Melisandre can see into her own future.

So, whilst the male characters have to retreat to a safe zone of the patriarchal "damsel in distress" mode, the female characters are shown instead to break with tradition, break with societal norms and find a source of strength and need within themselves to embark on a redemption/rebirth/revenge as it suits them. So, in hindsight, GRRM has actually freed his female characters to be independent and self-sufficient. Thanks George ;)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Cersei is really the only female protagonist of any major significance. Redemption implies some level if innate goodness or morality, and frankly I think Cersei is beyond that.

[Antonius Pius]

Redemption - only for guys?

When people trash G.R.R.M for his Stark-and-reader-torturing ways, they often neglect that ASOIAF does indeed contain highly satisfying elements for readers: G.R.R.M might not be big on fluff, and Happily Ever After or even poetic justice, but he's really good with redemption character arcs, see Jaime, the Hound, and now

even Theon

. We haven't seen anything compareable with any of the female characters so far however and I really hope that's going to be remedied soon.

Considering that many of the female characters are quite reviled by the fan base, I'd be interested in your opinion about their redeemability. Cersei/Melisandre/Catelyn/Dany/Sansa/Arya-Haters represent! Is there anything these gals could do to redeem themselves à la Jaime?

What could be the potential catalyst for female redemption? Would the mechanics for female redemption differ from the male template? (So far it seems to be: gut-wrenching ordeal + humiliation + opportunity to stand up for less jaded, purer, more innocent character designed to re-awaken nobler instincts). The Hound gets Sansa, Jaime gets Brienne,

Theon gets Jeyne Poole and Tyrion gets Penny

- Cersei has already had her ordeal and her humiliation, I think she's overdue for her very own morality pet!

Could you imagine any of the male characters we've encountered so far as morality pets for the female villains? (I would love Jon or Davos as morality pets for Melisandre.) If not, why not?

Firstly, I do not believe anyone is redeemed as yet, and only Jaime seems to be making some sort of half-hearted effort. There is NOTHING going on with the Hound re; Sansa. That he has joined the faith might become a redemption of sorts, though.

and Theon is perhaps sorry for what he did, but not very. he's sorry for what happened to him, and reflects on how vain he was. Also, he doesn't get Jeyne Poole, he only helps her escape

Furthermore, I fail to see what other characters require redemption. Catelyn gets a lot of hate, but she did what she did out of love for her children. Her motives are pure. Melisandre may be misguided, but seems to believe what she says. Sansa has done nothing to require redemption. Arya has some psycho-like behaviour, but she was fighting for her life. I don't recall offhand if she ever killed or hurt anyone for fun.

Cersei is really the only female protagonist of any major significance. Redemption implies some level if innate goodness or morality, and frankly I think Cersei is beyond that.

That's right, and she hasn't even shown any kind or remorse or anything. And she's plain evil, just a little bit short of Gregor, Ramsay and Qyburn.

[NotSoSilentSister]

"the female characters are shown instead to break with tradition, break with societal norms and find a source of strength and need within themselves to embark on a redemption/rebirth/revenge as it suits them."

That's nice for a coming-of-age storyline (and as such perfectly fitting for the Dany/Sansa/Arya POVs)but it really doesn't cut it when it comes to redemption - too egocentric. Redemption requires some act of selflessness and sacrifice and someone else in need of you to counter excessive selfishness and ego-centrism in the past.

Firstly, I do not believe anyone is redeemed as yet

Neither do I, but some are only one heroic death away, aren't they? And most readers have started to consider this as a plausible future character development for them.

Furthermore, I fail to see what other characters require redemption. Catelyn gets a lot of hate, but she did what she did out of love for her children. Her motives are pure. Melisandre may be misguided, but seems to believe what she says. Sansa has done nothing to require redemption. Arya has some psycho-like behaviour, but she was fighting for her life. I don't recall offhand if she ever killed or hurt anyone for fun

I agree that Cersei is the only female character who qualifies for a proper redemption arc as the only one in real need of redemption, but reading the threads here that's not necessarily consensus. The female characters do get their fair share of hate on these boards here. I'd like to get a little bit of reasoning from the haters: is the hate based on ethical considerations? - then possible redemdemption becomes an issue - or on something else?

[Été]

Considering that many of the female characters are quite reviled by the fan base, I'd be interested in your opinion about their redeemability. Cersei/Melisandre/Catelyn/Dany/Sansa/Arya-Haters represent! Is there anything these gals could do to redeem themselves à la Jaime?

Surely the problem isn't preferential treatment of one gender, simply a dearth of female characters? There are heaps and heaps of unredeemed male characters, albeit most of them more minor characters. The Boltons, most of the Freys, Euron Greyjoy, Darkstar, Qyburn, Gregor - characters that are not only unredeemed but almost certainly well beyond redemption.

Most of the female characters you've mentioned have no need of a redemption arc. The fact that they are disliked by some fans has nothing to do with evil deeds or redemption; they just don't like them as characters.

• Dany - not evil, just dumb. She doesn't need a morality pet, she needs a fucking map to Westeros.
  
  
• Sansa - not evil, just helpless. Alayne seems to be doing better. She made a huge error spilling Ned's intentions to Cersei, but that was an honest mistake based on her understanding of the situation; she couldn't have known Cersei would respond the way she did. (Not to mention, Cersei would have found out anyway via Varys' little mice.) I doubt anyone would blame Sansa for her part in Joffrey's demise. Whether Alayne ends up with blood on her hands remains to be seen, but Sansa's are clean.
  
  
• Arya - not evil, just needs to find her pack. She's done what she could to survive, although she's accepted collateral damage a little more readily than I'm comfortable with. She just needs to lighten up a little, and she's in no position to do that right now.
  
  
• Asha - not evil, just Ironborn.
  
  
• Melisandre - not evil, just misguided. Burning people is awful, but she's not Ramsay Bolton - she thinks she's helping to save the world. I don't support her actions but I think her intentions are good.
  
  
• Arianne - not evil, just bratty. She was willing to start a war out of rivalry with a sibling she rarely sees. Dolt. But having seen the error of her ways, she appears to be on the verge of her own redemption arc under Doran's tutelage.
  
  
• Catelyn - never needed redemption.
  
• Lady Stoneheart - not sure if she's evil: that rides on whether or not she lets Brienne, Pod and Jaime go. As the Freys are learning, revenge is a dish best served piping hot...
  
  
• Cersei - pretty darned evil. Incapable of love except for Jaime, which seems to be more out of entitlement than anything else: she sees him as the idealised version of herself (i.e. male) until she decides he's weak. She rarely spares a thought for her own children except WRT how they reflect on her. She is a spoilt child: callous, fickle, selfish, cruel and greedy. She kills innocent children, tortures wantonly, facilitates Qyburn's atrocities.

  I did pity her during her walk of shame: it felt like her crimes were finally catching up with her - that had to be a hard truth.

  As horrible as she is, I'd be content if she retired demurely to Casterly Rock, ruling there in her own right. The fact she'd never be satisfied with that despite all she stands to lose in KL is part of what makes her so unlikeable.
  

[Antonius Pius]

Neither do I, but some are only one heroic death away, aren't they? And most readers have started to consider this as a plausible future character development for them.

OK.

I agree that Cersei is the only female character who qualifies for a proper redemption arc as the only one in real need of redemption, but reading the threads here that's not necessarily consensus. The female characters do get their fair share of hate on these boards here. I'd like to get a little bit of reasoning from the haters: is the hate based on ethical considerations? - then possible redemdemption becomes an issue - or on something else?

That is certainly true. Especially Catelyn gets an extreme amount of hate. I never quite understood why. My guess is that it's mostly gut-based, and a deflection for the misfortune that befalls House Stark (and perhaps Robb in particular).

[Été]

That is certainly true. Especially Catelyn gets an extreme amount of hate. I never quite understood why. My guess is that it's mostly gut-based, and a deflection for the misfortune that befalls House Stark (and perhaps Robb in particular).

She doesn't deserve the vitriol, though I do find her POVs tedious. She's evidently written as a sympathetic character, and she comes off better in the TV series, but inside her head is dull.

At the Red Wedding, for instance, she takes one look at Roslin Frey and immediately starts worrying about her fertility, to the point of going off to ask Walder Frey's maester how likely she is to childbear successfully. I understand that this ties into the later subplot during Edmure's captivity, but I found that incredibly annoying for some reason. Just, chill out Catelyn. Stop being so miserable. :spank:

This is of course a personal peeve. YMMV.

[Milgod morghulis]

Why should Cersei get redemtion? Jaime was not nearly as 'evil' as Cersei to start with so didn't have to be 'redeemed' as much.

The other women mentioned don't really need redemption as most of them aren't bad as such. Some of them might not be popular, but that is more because people find them boring. The only thing that I really didn't like Cat for was the way she treated Jon.

Not all the bad guys get turned around either.

Tywin didn't get his character turned around. He was just a dick.

Ramsey has always been a tool as well, I highly doubt he will see any 'redemption'.

[Antonius Pius]

The only thing that I really didn't like Cat for was the way she treated Jon.

Yes, that's a big thing for most people who do hate Cat.

Ramsey has always been a tool as well, I highly doubt he will see any 'redemption'.

The only kind of redemption Ramsey needs is the kind a red-hot poker up the bum can provide. Or to have done unto him what he has done unto others.

[Call me Odie]

Great post NotSoSilentSister. It seems like there is so much more acceptance for whatever the male characters are doing, hey it’s even Cersei’s fault that poor sweet Jaime pushed Bran out of the window. Not to mention Cat. This whole war is only Cat’s fault… and she is a bitch for not favouring the idea of having her husband’s bastard in her face.

Cersei is queen bitch of the universe with Cat as her crown princess.

[Still not king]

As Eté says, except for Cersei these women/girls haven't done anyhing that requires redemption. Do we hold women to higher standards than men? What's fair about that?

Jaime threw a child out the window, meaning for him to die. Theon - with the help of a certain bastard - sacked Winterfell and killed the miller's children. It can't be compared to a child that rats on her dad and doesn't understand what she's doing, or another child that tries to survive the only way she knows how. Cat being dull is a character trait, not a horrible crime.

If Cersei hits rock bottom, then maybe she too can find it in herself to learn and grow. If she lives that long.

[Milgod morghulis]

Great post NotSoSilentSister. It seems like there is so much more acceptance for whatever the male characters are doing, hey it’s even Cersei’s fault that poor sweet Jaime pushed Bran out of the window. Not to mention Cat. This whole war is only Cat’s fault… and she is a bitch for not favouring the idea of having her husband’s bastard in her face.

Cersei is queen bitch of the universe with Cat as her crown princess.

Err, what?

Cersei is pure evil, there is no way you can try and justify her actions. Cat might not have liked have 'her husband's bastard in her face' but how was that Jon's fault? He was a kid and, as far as we can tell, never did anything wrong to Cat. The war is not her fault, that is down to a group of people.

[longlivestark]

The problem with redemption for any of the female characters is that few have done anything wrong. Dany really hasn't done anything evil, she is misguided and maybe a little unrealistic about her expectations of the world, but I can't call her evil. Sansa is not evil, she was young and stupid, and now seems to be growing up. Arya is.....greyer then most other females, but until she kills someone for a stupid reason or no reason, then she doesn't need redemption. Cersei is evil, there is no redemption likely for her, with Jaime we thought he was truly evil until we saw inside his head, with Cersei, seeing inside her head only made us realize how evil she really is.

[Zoë Sumra]

Do we hold women to higher standards than men? What's fair about that?

In SFF, we quite often do.

Capable male protagonist: hero.

Capable female protagonist: Mary Sue.

There's a massive disconnect in some cases between stereotypical female behaviour, desired female behaviour (not the same), stereotypical behaviour of SFF protagonists, and desired reader, mainly male reader, reaction to female protagonists, particularly with the recent clamour for "real grit" in fantasy.

[brashcandy]

If we are defining redemption as strictly "atonement for guilt" then yes, the only female character that really needs redeeming in this strict sense is Cersei. However, redemption doesn't have to be limited to simply righting wrongs committed. Many female characters still possess a desire to be redeemed, in the sense of an actual rebirth. If we think of Cat's literal coming back to life: what is this other than the act of being redeemed? She has returned to seek revenge, to get redemption for herself perhaps for what she wasn't able to prevent in her first life.

Sansa and Arya are also undergoing a redemption through rebirth arc. Both their identities have been stripped, and they now have to restructure new lives. Again, like Cat, they have a chance to right wrongs committed against their family and to redeem their previous weaknesses, and or mistakes.

Dany also goes through a rebirth in ADWD. I won't go into the details to avoid spoilers, but she too seeks redemption, and seems to find it at the end.

Melisandre we can argue, is constantly undergoing rebirth. Being able to see into the future, but not in the sense of a static prediction, but with things changing and warping, her identity too is frequently in motion.

When Jon finds out that Melisandre did not indeed burn Mance, but rather the Lord of Bones, Melisandre is technically 'redeemed', however, this is only for Jon's benefit, Melisandre had never been in need of it, in this sense.

So again, women achieve redemption through rebirth, whether literal or symbolic. Men at first have to lose either a tangible or intangible part of themselves that connects them to their masculine identity, but subsequently "retrieve" it and are "redeemed" through helping a female. In the case of Jaime, he loses his sword arm; in the case of Theon

he loses his dignity and becomes Ramsays's Reek

[brashcandy]

That's nice for a coming-of-age storyline (and as such perfectly fitting for the Dany/Sansa/Arya POVs)but it really doesn't cut it when it comes to redemption - too egocentric. Redemption requires some act of selflessness and sacrifice and someone else in need of you to counter excessive selfishness and ego-centrism in the past.

This is not so. As I have noted above, GRRM seems to have women achieve their redemption by shunning male assistance/interaction. Of course, men are still in the picture, but the women seem to embark on a journey that sees them actively seeking to reconfigure their lives on their own terms. This is not egocentric at all. Further, we cannot say yet that they will not be in need of redemption in the strict sense as atonement for guilt, or that they will not do "some act of selflessness" since the story simply hasn't been written yet. We still have two books to go. Perhaps Sansa will redeem her complicity in Lysa's death, by saving Sweetrobin. Maybe Arya will end up saving a life, instead of taking one. See my spoiler above for how Melisandre may have achieved hers. Cersei may yet come to surprise too, and Dany may be redeemed for her mistakes in Meereen by joining with Jon to fight the others when she gets to Westeros.

[Still not king]

If we think of Cat's literal coming back to life: what is this other than the act of being redeemed? She has returned to seek revenge, to get redemption for herself perhaps for what she wasn't able to prevent in her first life.

But it was not her choice to be brought back, no one asked her... Doesn't redemption require a personal choice?

Maybe we should define redemption first? :) Not a native speaker, so the finer aspects of the word might escape me...