Sansa's Memory Related to Sandor III

[ICE CROW]

Ladies and Gentlemen this is the third thread of it's kind, I am restarting it to replace the second thread which died a premature death.

This topic has had some truly amazing insight into these two characters and was one of the most active threads going. It saddens me to say that it was shut down early because of the belief that the topic had been discussed out. We all know that to be wrong, I know many of you still had a great many things to say about this topic, so here is it's rebirth.

Enjoy and Keep the Memory ALIVE!!!!!!

[FacelessGirl]

Glad this thread is back. :)

[Alais]

I've been interested in what the entire thing meant to Sandor as well.

Trying to recap the last thing I said about it (a shorter version was added in another thread, but it would fit here better).

He took a kiss - her first kiss, so it's significant, even if it only happened in her imagination. In all the stories of knights and fair ladies I think kisses were more a symbol of "courtly love" than passion. The kiss that she remembers isn't the chaste, gentle kiss of a story. So Sandor took a kiss and in doing so helped destroy her illusions about kisses. (I'm reminded of what she said to Cersei about expecting her flowering to be less messy and more magical. Welcome to reality little bird.)

He left her a bloody cloak. The cloak represents all the knightly values that Sandor despises as lies. I think Sandor's discarding the cloak is his rejection of both his role as the Lannister's dog and his membership in what was usually a "knights only" club, the Kingsguard.

He left the cloak, which had been a symbol of his role as Joffrey's protector for Sansa. I think that protective symbol is important. His loyalty is transferred from Joffrey and the Lannisters to Sansa, even though she isn't ready to go with him. That's the symbolic meaning of the exchange of cloaks in the wedding ceremony - it may well foreshadow their future. But then, this is GRRM, it may not.

For Sansa the kiss represents rejecting illusions and the cloak is protection, freely offered by someone who only wants her for herself.

For Sandor the kiss never happened, the cloak is his rejection of the Lannisters and the beginning of the end of the Hound. It sets him on the path to becoming his own man, not someone's "dog". It also transfers his protection from Joffrey to Sansa.

(And keep it on topic people. :P )

:pirate:

[3LittleBirds]

Specifically, I think we're talking about Sansa's uncertain memory of Sandor kissing her the night of BBB. GRRM has said this wasn't a mistake, but rather an instance of utilizing the "unreliable narrator". The question, for me, is this: is the kiss the important thing here, or is there something else in Sansa's POV that is false? She "remembers" a kiss that never happened...does she similarly "remember" something else that never happened? Or does she fail to remember something that did happen? Or did the kiss actually happen, and possibly much more, and she blocked it out in the moment (in the actual chapter) but recalled only the kiss later?

And is any of this actually related to Sandor, besides the kiss? Because if the kiss is the important thing, then for me that suggests that they'll very likely meet again, and have some major interactions. But if there's more to Sansa's memory problems, then IDK if her and Sandor are really going to have much more together. If it turns out that she's got a false memory of, say, her marriage night (not likely, b/c we hear about its aftermath from so many other POV's, but still...) or Joffrey's wedding (more likely, I think)...she's got bigger problems than Sandor and the false kiss.

Holy cow, it's a weird thing, isn't it? The more you think about it, the more it messes w/your mind. I so cannot wait for GRRM to reveal what, exactly, the deal is.

[FacelessGirl]

The Winds of Winter, Christmas 2014. The mystery will be revealed.

[Alais]

I don't think it's anything more than a mistaken memory of that incident. She was traumatized before she went to her room and found Sandor passed out in her bed. She thinks he's going to kiss her (and he possibly was, but she closed her eyes which stops him). After the whole debacle with Cersei and Illyn Payne and the wildfire and not knowing if she's going to be alive or dead the next day, it's no wonder her memory is faulty.

Any traumatic event can do that. Often there's no memory at all, or an altered memory of what really happened.

[3LittleBirds]

I don't think it's anything more than a mistaken memory of that incident. She was traumatized before she went to her room and found Sandor passed out in her bed. She thinks he's going to kiss her (and he possibly was, but she closed her eyes which stops him). After the whole debacle with Cersei and Illyn Payne and the wildfire and not knowing if she's going to be alive or dead the next day, it's no wonder her memory is faulty.

Any traumatic event can do that. Often there's no memory at all, or an altered memory of what really happened.

But, see, that makes me wonder. Sansa goes through a TON of traumatic experiences. Could she have misremembered other things as well?

I hope not, because I'd rather that it was just the kiss, a highly personal thing, that definitely needs to get resolved between her and Sandor.

[ICE CROW]

But, see, that makes me wonder. Sansa goes through a TON of traumatic experiences. Could she have misremembered other things as well?

I hope not, because I'd rather that it was the kiss, a highly personal thing, that definitely needs to get resolved between her and Sandor.

Hey Sansa has been through a hell of alot, even though she was raised to be a lady and she handled all the craziness that happened better than most could have expected. Wouldn't it be a real kick in the Teeth if GRRM comes and says its all a lie after Seeing Lysa Arryn thrown out the moon door Sansa went Bat Shit Crazy and everything literally everything that has been happening has all been an illusion in her mind and Littlefinger has had to keep her locked up in a cell Because she talks like patchface now in odd nonsensical sentences.

[3LittleBirds]

Hey Sansa has been through a hell of alot, even though she was raised to be a lady and she handled all the craziness that happened better than most could have expected. Wouldn't it be a real kick in the Teeth if GRRM comes and says its all a lie after Seeing Lysa Arryn thrown out the moon door Sansa went Bat Shit Crazy and everything literally everything that has been happening has all been an illusion in her mind and Littlefinger has had to keep her locked up in a cell Because she talks like patchface now in odd nonsensical sentences.

I would DIE! That would be just...wow. Crackpot alert! :D

But I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that she's misremembered something from that timeframe, because she's living a total lie, a very stressful and traumatic experience. Hmm, may have to check her Alayne chapters, and see if there's anything fishy...

[Still not king]

He left her a bloody cloak. The cloak represents all the knightly values that Sandor despises as lies. I think Sandor's discarding the cloak is his rejection of both his role as the Lannister's dog and his membership in what was usually a "knights only" club, the Kingsguard.

Mmm. It could also represent the bloody sheet of the marriage bed. Not saying they'll ever get there (I don't think they will), but it could represent taking her innocence in a way, her naivety. And then Sansa wrapping herself in this cloak shows that she accepts and understands that she's an adult now. Winter is coming.

Heh, it's all so wonderfully f*cked up. How can one *not* be fascinated?

[buttercups]

perhaps the misremember of the kiss is not about Sandor, but, rather about how her aunt Lysa died. IMOP, We can to some degree verify Sansa's actions through other POV's, for example Cersi and Sandor via Arya, so the kiss did not happen, nor did anything more despictable.

[ICE CROW]

perhaps the misremember of the kiss is not about Sandor, but, rather about how her aunt Lysa died. IMOP, We can to some degree verify Sansa's actions through other POV's, for example Cersi and Sandor via Arya, so the kiss did not happen, nor did anything more despictable.

But we see most of her misremembering before Lysa died if i'm not mistaken.

[Été]

The difference between the kiss and all of Sansa's other experiences is that we as readers have been able to recognise a discrepancy between events at the time and her later recollection of them.

Her confabulation of the kiss doesn't foreshadow a revelation about Lysa's murder because we've seen that with our own eyes in her POV. If it was depicted untruthfully, the problem would be with her original perception of what's going on around her - not her memory.

There is a bit of wiggle room around the Purple Wedding because we saw that from Tyrion's POV. However, when we cut to Sansa immediately afterwards, she was only just deducing what had really happened, so any short-term amnesia would have to be pretty dramatic. Conversely, Sansa doesn't allude to the unkiss until well after the Blackwater, which suggests she only blurred fiction and reality once a bit of time had passed and the original memory wasn't as solid. So I think her memory WRT to Joffrey is also intact.

That leaves the unkiss as the odd one out. I think this is to do with unresolved matters between Sansa and the Hound. Their rather limited interactions typify Sansa's themes: 'life is not a song' (i.e. knighthood, romance, chivalry), burgeoning sexuality, and issues of control. Word of God suggests that Sansa's mismemory of the Arya/Joff showdown was foreshadowing for this mismemory, though it certainly remains to be seen why it should be so important for Sansa to mistakenly think she kissed Sandor when he could have just written an actual kiss.

[taurunum dire cat]

I love this San/San treads!!!

Didnt realy post much on them cose I gues Im a bit older than most of you

But!! I realy only like Sansa in relation of her interaction with Sandor,and I think that kiss that newer hapened will be important when they meet again

She will no longer be afraid of him but see him as only person who newer did anything bad to her.

Even woman in theyr 30-s love a good godd girl/bed guy story :rolleyes:

[Alexia]

The last thread got locked because it turned off-topic and chatty. Just friendly advice, because I enjoy reading/posting in these threads, but if the mods are gracious enough to allow this new thread the way to keep it alive is to stay on-topic and avoid silliness. :)

[1234567]

I wonder if the mis-memory has more to do with drawing a comparison between her and LF. He was mistakenly under the impression he had slept with her mother and may have built a whole fantasy scenario in his head that led to his future actions regarding Ned and Cat.

So it could be to do with Sansa constructing a past for herself that fits her own idea of how things were, rather than how things are. In this way she is mirroring the beginnings of LF.

[littlespider]

Peeps, I love discussing this as much as you do, but the points we're making here are just repeating (ad infinitum) what we discussed over the last almost-700 posts of this discussion.

So, may I gently suggest that since we've subjected Our Favorite Scene (and all that goes with it) to extensive analysis of near biblical-exegetical proportions, and speculated about as many possible outcome scenarios as are possible, that we perhaps leave off the discussion for now?

Or, alternatively, that posters read (or reread) some of the old discussion of the topic in Parts I and II and post to this new thread if they actually have anything new to contribute to the discussion?

No offense meant at all, this has been one of the most interesting ongoing discussions currently and about my two favorite characters, no less. But it's just repeating the same stuff over, and over, and over.

Meanwhile I'm going to wander over to the aDwD crackpot theory thread and post THE FACTS about what the Unkiss really means. ;)

[brashcandy]

Peeps, I love discussing this as much as you do, but the points we're making here are just repeating (ad infinitum) what we discussed over the last almost-700 posts of this discussion.

So, may I gently suggest that since we've subjected Our Favorite Scene (and all that goes with it) to extensive analysis of near biblical-exegetical proportions, and speculated about as many possible outcome scenarios as are possible, that we perhaps leave off the discussion for now?

Or, alternatively, that posters read (or reread) some of the old discussion of the topic in Parts I and II and post to this new thread if they actually have anything new to contribute to the discussion?

No offense meant at all, this has been one of the most interesting ongoing discussions currently and about my two favorite characters, no less. But it's just repeating the same stuff over, and over, and over.

Meanwhile I'm going to wander over to the aDwD crackpot theory thread and post THE FACTS about what the Unkiss really means. ;)

I have to agree with you here, LS. I could talk about this for days, and I have! But a lot of it is simply repeated theories we have already gone over. Previously, Alais and I came to some kind of conclusion which she has provided above, and others can see the "What's going on with Sansa" thread for further explication achieved with Littlebird's imput. I do agree that this thread's usefulness will be in contributing new or expanded theories after having perused the older threads.

[Suzette]

GRRM has said this wasn't a mistake, but rather an instance of utilizing the "unreliable narrator".

Based on this information . . . I think that the UNkiss is GRRM way of letting us know how Sansa REALLY feels about Sandor even tho Sansa is lying to herself.

Meaning in Sansa's POV we don't ever hear her say "OMG I THINK I AM IN LOVE WITH SANDOR" We see her say some things that show us she might CARE for Sandor, but nothing in her POV leads us to believe she thinks about him romantically.

Because I am such a San/San fan this quote is about as close as we get to Sansa showing she has feelings for the Hound pre BBB.

"she even sang for Tyrion the Imp and for the Hound. He is no true knight but he saved me all the same, she told the Mother. Save him if you can, and gentle the rage inside him." ACoC chapt. 57 Sansa

After the interaction with San/San at BBB the only evidence she cares for the Hound is 1. she keeps the cloak, and 2. her unkiss memory.

The unKiss memory happens during her breaking her fast with the Queen of Thorns and Margery? Yeah? (maybe I am wrong I do not have my books with me) And she thinks of the unKiss in response to one of the girls talking about kissing some boy. I think Sansa is separating herself from the young innocent girls she is in current company with. She surrvived some tragic stuff. She has previously been the only "girl" her age at KL for a while (well girl her age she would hang out with) and then Margery rolls into KL with all her girly cousins in tow. And I think Sansa resents their innocence and misses her own at the same time. I think she also take a bit of pride in her lost innocence. She likes the fact that she is more wise than these silly girls. She is more like Sandor.

I think Sansa is STILL in denial about her feelings for Sandor and GRRM is showing us this with an unKiss memory.

[Alexia]

After the interaction with San/San at BBB the only evidence she cares for the Hound is 1. she keeps the cloak, and 2. her unkiss memory.

There is also the time after Lysa's wedding when she was sitting outside thinking about him and wondering what had become of him and if he knew or cared about Joffrey's demise, shortly before dreaming of him getting into her bed with her. I'd say that this is another piece of evidence that she cares about him.

Agreed that she is growing more cynical. I wonder what Sandor would think about her now, since a large part of his attraction to her was her innocence.