Sansa's Memory Related to Sandor III

[littlebird_]

I think after two threads we reached somewhat of a consensus on how the mismemory of the kiss and the events of that night are significant mainly because of how Sansa interprets them differently. So at ACoK and ASoS the cloak is a symbol of protection and when we're at AFFC it is something he left her with, she no longer has a symbolic meaning attached to it demonstrating how she is becoming cynical. I don't know if this is all there is to it but it is definitely an interesting way for GRRM to demonstrate the development Sansa is going through and changing since she is an internal character it does fit that her transformation would be visible through the change of attitude towards symbols of chivalry and protection. I must admit I am not sure if this will lead to a climactic moment of Sansa realizing the added kiss or not, it might just be a subtle way of tracing her development.

One thing I find quite interesting;

I wonder if the mis-memory has more to do with drawing a comparison between her and LF. He was mistakenly under the impression he had slept with her mother and may have built a whole fantasy scenario in his head that led to his future actions regarding Ned and Cat.

So it could be to do with Sansa constructing a past for herself that fits her own idea of how things were, rather than how things are. In this way she is mirroring the beginnings of LF.

This was something I brought up in the previous thread also and I find it very intriguing. Littlefinger also has this double persona of Petyr Baelish/Littlefinger that mirrors Sansa/Alayne. He has for years idealized a past with Catelyn in the same way Sansa is adding a kiss to a traumatic experience. Littlefinger's beginnings aren't all that different from Sansa; a boy who believes in knights and chivalry and thinks he'll get the girl because he loves her more and learns that life is not a song.

[ICE CROW]

I think after two threads we reached somewhat of a consensus on how the mismemory of the kiss and the events of that night are significant mainly because of how Sansa interprets them differently. So at ACoK and ASoS the cloak is a symbol of protection and when we're at AFFC it is something he left her with, she no longer has a symbolic meaning attached to it demonstrating how she is becoming cynical. I don't know if this is all there is to it but it is definitely an interesting way for GRRM to demonstrate the development Sansa is going through and changing since she is an internal character it does fit that her transformation would be visible through the change of attitude towards symbols of chivalry and protection. I must admit I am not sure if this will lead to a climactic moment of Sansa realizing the added kiss or not, it might just be a subtle way of tracing her development.

One thing I find quite interesting;

This was something I brought up in the previous thread also and I find it very intriguing. Littlefinger also has this double persona of Petyr Baelish/Littlefinger that mirrors Sansa/Alayne. He has for years idealized a past with Catelyn in the same way Sansa is adding a kiss to a traumatic experience. Littlefinger's beginnings aren't all that different from Sansa; a boy who believes in knights and chivalry and thinks he'll get the girl because he loves her more and learns that life is not a song.

Hey you know you don't have to keep mentioning how you feel it's all been discussed before, The books have been out for 15 years im sure they were discussed out before you even got here. My point is stop saying that and let the thread be enjoyed by those who want to enjoy it. If you feel you done then move on from here, but others may have new insight, new opinions or are just curios, lets not ruin it for them.

[littlebird_]

Hey you know you don't have to keep mentioning how you feel it's all been discussed before, The books have been out for 15 years im sure they were discussed out before you even got here. My point is stop saying that and let the thread be enjoyed by those who want to enjoy it. If you feel you done then move on from here, but others may have new insight, new opinions or are just curios, lets not ruin it for them.

I'm not sure what you feel offended by. I outlined what I think was the consensus we have reached as a basis for further discussion. If people have something to add to that or if they think it was wrong or faulty in someway and I also tried to raise some other questions about how events might unfold. I don't think my post in any way implies that people should stop discussing the issue but that there were some points raised that are not in this thread and they might form as the basis for further discussion.

Again I am not sure why you think I keep mentioning something when I have mentioned it once and not as something to close off discussion but as something to provide a basis for further exploration.

[brashcandy]

Let me just state Crow, that like Littlebird, I never meant to offend you as the poster or to undermine the relevance of the thread. I think everyone on this board knows our commitment to any San/San theory. And certainly the evolution of these recent threads have been very significant and productive. There will always be a need for new theories and developments. My point is, and the point I think LB was trying to make is that it would be useful and beneficial for new posters to review these recently closed threads to have some idea of the discussion that has taken place. This can only serve to enrich any subsequent conversations.

[ICE CROW]

Let me just state Crow, that like Littlebird, I never meant to offend you as the poster or to undermine the relevance of the thread. I think everyone on this board knows our commitment to any San/San theory. And certainly the evolution of these recent threads have been very significant and productive. There will always be a need for new theories and developments. My point is, and the point I think LB was trying to make is that it would be useful and beneficial for new posters to review these recently closed threads to have some idea of the discussion that has taken place. This can only serve to enrich any subsequent conversations.

Ladies im not offended, my appologies if it came off that way.

Im just saying it's here for those who want it im not even really posing in here no offence taken. :cheers:

[LittleDragon]

I wonder if the mis-memory has more to do with drawing a comparison between her and LF. He was mistakenly under the impression he had slept with her mother and may have built a whole fantasy scenario in his head that led to his future actions regarding Ned and Cat.

So it could be to do with Sansa constructing a past for herself that fits her own idea of how things were, rather than how things are. In this way she is mirroring the beginnings of LF.

Interesting idea, somewhat more than a simple maester-student relation.

Someone earlier mentioned the mismemory as if there's anything else Sansa not remembers well. I think all other memories were confirmed by someone else's POV. Maybe we should look all Sansa-chapters together, and checking if there are other elements not confirmed by someone else?

[sunworshipper]

Well, since Littlefinger mis-remembers taking Catelyn's maidenhood, maybe Sansa's false memory of her first kiss is supposed to signify how she is following in his path. I could never quite believe that he couldn't have figured out that it was really Lysa (and she would have been likely to tell him). So in twenty years, Lady Sansa marries Gregor and kidnaps the Hound's son. :laugh:

[littlebird_]

Ladies im not offended, my appologies if it came off that way.

Im just saying it's here for those who want it im not even really posing in here no offence taken. :cheers:

:cheers:

So in twenty years, Lady Sansa marries Gregor and kidnaps the Hound's son. :laugh:

:lmao:

Well, since Littlefinger mis-remembers taking Catelyn's maidenhood, maybe Sansa's false memory of her first kiss is supposed to signify how she is following in his path. I could never quite believe that he couldn't have figured out that it was really Lysa (and she would have been likely to tell him).

The way I interpret it what happened with Littlefinger is similar to what is happening with Sansa, he sleeps with Lysa but thinks its Cat, he is drunk but everything that happens afterwards should have alerted someone so clever to the fact that it wasn't Cat, yet he chooses to continue with the delusion and not only that he tells everyone about it. It is similar to Sansa because I think he genuinely believes it happened. I am not sure yet about the significance of this but it does demonstrate a tendency in both Sansa and Littlefinger to avoid confronting the truth and trauma of a situation and instead replace it with something that they wish happened.

Someone earlier mentioned the mismemory as if there's anything else Sansa not remembers well. I think all other memories were confirmed by someone else's POV. Maybe we should look all Sansa-chapters together, and checking if there are other elements not confirmed by someone else?

If there is anything I think it might be happening in the Vale, we have no additional POV to the events there and the tone of Sansa's chapters have changed since she went to the Eyrie especially after she becomes Alayne.

[Été]

If there is anything I think it might be happening in the Vale, we have no additional POV to the events there and the tone of Sansa's chapters have changed since she went to the Eyrie especially after she becomes Alayne.

But again, that would be different from the unkiss because she'd be changing her perception of events as she sees it for the first time rather than looking back and changing the memory.

It sounds like a subtle difference, but it's pretty big. It's the difference between an unreliable narrator and one who is actually lying.

[LittleDragon]

But again, that would be different from the unkiss because she'd be changing her perception of events as she sees it for the first time rather than looking back and changing the memory.

It sounds like a subtle difference, but it's pretty big. It's the difference between an unreliable narrator and one who is actually lying.

Than we have to look around things she has recollections. Maybe there's something about Joffrey, or Ned, or Cersei, something she had seen in the court, and what we see only as a memory and not as a real time action. Maybe this is where her unreliable narrator status would be important.

the famous story with Joffrey, Arya and Nymeria was an intentional mistake from Sansa's part, she simply didn't wanted to put in danger her status as bethroted. But if I remember well sometimes later she has changed this memory also in a recollection.

[littlebird_]

But again, that would be different from the unkiss because she'd be changing her perception of events as she sees it for the first time rather than looking back and changing the memory.

It sounds like a subtle difference, but it's pretty big. It's the difference between an unreliable narrator and one who is actually lying.

No I agree its pretty big difference that is why she starts with adding the kiss, and then she's moves on to bigger things :lol: The thing that I find interesting in her chapters especially at AFFC and this has been something that was mentioned before I think is that there are times when even in her internal thoughts we get no emotional reaction from Sansa/Alayne. Her reaction to Littlefinger's kisses are more deduced from Littlefinger calling them "dutiful" than any thought she has on the subject. She is being kissed by a guy she considers to be a father figure and there is nothing there. She thinks of the kiss with Sandor when Robert kisses her and doesn't when Littlefinger does, when Littlefinger kisses her, her internal thoughts are methodological; his breath smells like this or

“I would never have known it from the kiss you gave me.” He pulled her closer, caught her face between his hands, and kissed her on the lips for a long time. “Now that’s the sort of kiss that says welcome home. See that you do better next time.”

“Yes, Father.” She could feel herself blushing.

She is blushing but other than that does she like it, hate it, despise it, what does she feel? There is no description. She describes the kiss with Sandor in more detail and it never happened :lol: Of course it might mean nothing or it might be because she considers it traumatic that even in her internal thoughts she has no place for it but I find it interesting that her reactions to events are controlled even in her internal thoughts especially when she's around Littlefinger.

when I was looking for the above quote I also noticed this

“I would do the same if she were my daughter,” said the last knight, a short, wiry man with a wry smile, pointed nose, and bristly orange hair. “Particularly around louts like us.”

Alayne laughed. “Are you louts?” she said, teasing. “Why, I took the three of you for gallant knights.”

Is our little Sansa flirting?

[Starbird]

She is blushing but other than that does she like it, hate it, despise it, what does she feel? There is no description.

Is our little Sansa flirting?

I think she's blushing because she's been corrected on the courteous way to welcome a father home. She hasn't quite buried Sansa yet and we all know how important courtesies were to her. (Although, one would expect her to be repulsed by LF's kiss, knowing he lusted after her mother, so there's probably an element of embarrassment that he's kissing her in such a sexual way.)

Flirting: yes. She's realizing her effect on men and, through LF, how to use that to further her own agenda. (Not that she's being malicious here but she's trying it out and it's working.)

[Alexia]

I think she's blushing because she's been corrected on the courteous way to welcome a father home. She hasn't quite buried Sansa yet and we all know how important courtesies were to her. (Although, one would expect her to be repulsed by LF's kiss, knowing he lusted after her mother, so there's probably an element of embarrassment that he's kissing her in such a sexual way.)

But that isn't the courteous way to welcome a father home. Ned never kissed her on the lips. She's blushing because she's embarrassed by and uncomfortable with his sexual advances. She was furious about it the first time he kissed her in ASOS, when she was hoping that Lysa would send her away from LF and his kisses.

Flirting: yes. She's realizing her effect on men and, through LF, how to use that to further her own agenda. (Not that she's being malicious here but she's trying it out and it's working.)

She is absolutely flirting, which is quite interesting. Especially since she doesn't seem at all interested in the men in question, dismissively calling them hedge knights after they left the room.

[brashcandy]

I think she's blushing because she's been corrected on the courteous way to welcome a father home. She hasn't quite buried Sansa yet and we all know how important courtesies were to her. (Although, one would expect her to be repulsed by LF's kiss, knowing he lusted after her mother, so there's probably an element of embarrassment that he's kissing her in such a sexual way.)

Flirting: yes. She's realizing her effect on men and, through LF, how to use that to further her own agenda. (Not that she's being malicious here but she's trying it out and it's working.)

Yes. She is flirting, but what she says to them is completely important as it pertains to what she has learnt and her path forward. The old Sansa would have really thought that these men were gallant knights. Alayne knows better. And whilst her statement is flirtatious on the surface, it is also very very ironic. She realises that these "louts" are not "gallant knights", and this is a big breakthrough for Sansa. I think she is being a bit malicious here actually :) and it's a nice touch.

[littlebird_]

. (Although, one would expect her to be repulsed by LF's kiss, knowing he lusted after her mother, so there's probably an element of embarrassment that he's kissing her in such a sexual way.)

I read the blushing as embarrassment also but it was just interesting that her feelings on the matter is not something she thinks about, its only the blushing and Littlefinger's words on it that give it away, maybe its just authorial intent to keep her feelings a little gray so we don't know exactly how she's feeling

She is absolutely flirting, which is quite interesting. Especially since she doesn't seem at all interested in the men in question, dismissively calling them hedge knights after they left the room.

That's probably why I missed it before because there is absolutely no reason for her to be flirting there, she is not interested in the men, there is no advantage in the situation but her reaction to them is flirting which even with men who are very interested in her was never her reaction. Of course this is the first time we are starting to see her interact with men outside of Littlefinger and sweetrobin hence this might be a sign of how she will interact with men from now on.

She was furious about it the first time he kissed her in ASOS, when she was hoping that Lysa would send her away from LF and his kisses.

She reacts to it in her internal thoughts as well in ASOS

He sounded almost like Marillion, the night he’d gotten so drunk at the wedding. Only this time Lothor Brune would not appear to save her; Ser Lothor was Petyr’s man. “You shouldn’t kiss me. I might have been your own daughter . . . ”

“Might have been,” he admitted, with a rueful smile. “But you’re not, are you? You are Eddard Stark’s daughter, and Cat’s. But I think you might be even more beautiful than your mother was, when she was your age.”

“Petyr, please.” Her voice sounded so weak. “Please . . . ”

There is a physical and internal reaction to him kissing her here that disappears in AFFC, she is uncomfortable with it but there is no internal discussion of the subject. Again it might be just to show that she's retreating into herself with Littlefinger but there is a clear contrast to how she interacts with other people where she seems more confident and more at ease with herself.

[Black Amethyst]

I have a different idea, which is probably crackpot, but what about this:

What if Sansa never DOES meet up with Sandor again? What if her mismemory of the kiss becomes like a common theme to her, for every other thing that happens? Like she just replaces it with Sandor in her mind? For example, if it was something negative and she just superimposed some positive version with Sandor? Some guy creeps into "Alayne's " room and accosts her in bed, but to her it was really just Sandor being romantic? Maybe that is going too mentally ill with it :wacko:

I'm not a fan of that idea, myself, but I could picture that kind of coping mechanism in a traumatic, stressful situation. Or maybe several things do happen that way, and then Sandor does show up in some context.

How would he deal with her mismemories, especially if she mentioned them? He's very blunt. It could be a tragic reunion. Would he take advantage? Would he be sensitive to her? Would he recognize that she was trying to cope with a darker real memory? Hard to know.

[Alexia]

I read the blushing as embarrassment also but it was just interesting that her feelings on the matter is not something she thinks about, its only the blushing and Littlefinger's words on it that give it away, maybe its just authorial intent to keep her feelings a little gray so we don't know exactly how she's feeling

*snip*

There is a physical and internal reaction to him kissing her here that disappears in AFFC, she is uncomfortable with it but there is no internal discussion of the subject. Again it might be just to show that she's retreating into herself with Littlefinger but there is a clear contrast to how she interacts with other people where she seems more confident and more at ease with herself.

Sansa has a tendency to not dwell on things that she is unhappy with and cannot do anything about. I think it is a defense mechanism. He is making her kiss him whether she wants to or not, he knows perfectly well that she doesn't want to, so from Sansa's perspective she seems to try not to think about it and just deal. You see this again in her first AFFC chapter when she is horrified by the situation she is in (and *really* horrified) and thinks that LF never lifted so much as his little finger for her, comparing him negatively to Sandor, Tyrion, and Dontos. But Sansa has no power to change her situation that she perceives, and it is significantly better for her than it was at KL, so she just deals and tries not to think about it.

Another example of her not dwelling on things that upset her is in her second ACOK chapter she thinks about how lonely she is and how much she misses Jeyne Poole and Septa Mordane. She tries not to think of them because of how much it hurts but sometimes she couldn't help herself and then she cries.

[Sheepish]

Yeah, I don't think a future rape would be romantic or comforting in any way. I hope it doesn't happen, but she has had a few close calls.

Until I came here I hadn't really known that there would be such lovers of this complex relationship. I always though the 'took a kiss, song and left a bloody cloak' was her version of a line in her song. It will probably be a tragedy and make ladies weep for centuries.

The kiss being the tenderness she shows him when she touches his face... it's probably the closest he's come in a while, right? The song is a fragment of a lullaby or religious folk song, not the sexiest or potentially romantic of songs. I think it serves to remind him of innocence and honest fear for the little seed of goodness that can be ruined when cruelty rules over youth. The bloody cloak I liken to Sansa's own feelings of lost maidenhood... not literally, but figuratively in that she's coming to realize the full tragedy of her song and that her innocence and purity is gone when even the most vile of 'protectors' flees in fear and shame from her.

I'm quite shallow and new to the world of forums though.

On a side note with that, I think it's in the spirit of forums to allow people to post and discuss what they will as long as it's popular and feels satisfying. I personally don't want to read through 7 pages of posts [only 2]... so I'm glad for new threads, even if the regular uber-posters are tired of the topic. I think it's a bad idea to get too ingrained in 'givens' for series like this, anyway.

[littlebird_]

Another example of her not dwelling on things that upset her is in her second ACOK chapter she thinks about how lonely she is and how much she misses Jeyne Poole and Septa Mordane. She tries not to think of them because of how much it hurts but sometimes she couldn't help herself and then she cries.

This is like her reaction to seeing Ned's head; he can make me look but he can't make me see, so Littlefinger can make her kiss him but he can't make her feel the kiss. No I get that, I think we talked about Sansa and not expressing negative emotions before but usually she does have some internal reaction to it. She does not enjoy sweetrobin's kisses and because she doesn't she thinks of the kiss with Sandor, with Littlefinger there is something more, she doesn't replace the kiss with anything, she just reports the kiss and that is it. I think you are right that it is because she retreats into herself when she's scared or because she realizes she can not change her situation, what is interesting is the duality of her situation.

Especially in ASOS Sansa had completely retreated into herself and didn't react to almost anything but here she reacts to everyone else and in a more confident manner than ever before, the girl is even flirting but then she retreats back as soon as Littlefinger makes an advance. She doesn't even retreat when they are having a normal conversation so its only those advances that she feels need to be repressed. And her mechanism for repressing here is not the kiss. The kiss she uses to guide her along the other sexually themed situations but not with Littlefinger. I am not sure if I actually even have a point :lol: I just find it to be an interesting duality

but I could picture that kind of coping mechanism in a traumatic, stressful situation. Or maybe several things do happen that way, and then Sandor does show up in some context.

If she used the kiss consistently in stressful situations I would say its definitely a coping mechanism but she doesn't. The way her reactions change to the kiss is probably there to show us her changing attitude towards romance and her sexual awakening which put together with her starting to flirt makes a lot of sense. The kiss is something that empowers her I think, it makes her believe she had agency that night and as she becomes more confident she actually starts using that agency in real life also.

The only part that doesn't fit is the kisses with LF but maybe that's because even though she feels empowered in every other area when it comes to LF she still feels like a scared little girl so rather than using the memory of the kiss that gives her power and agency as Alayne she goes back to retreating into herself as Sansa. So if she ever starts remembering the kiss while kissing LF it is our signal that she's starting to break free :lol:

[Starbird]

How would he deal with her mismemories, especially if she mentioned them? He's very blunt. It could be a tragic reunion. Would he take advantage? Would he be sensitive to her? Would he recognize that she was trying to cope with a darker real memory? Hard to know.

I would like to think that, put face-to-face with Sandor again, Sansa would be free to be herself, as she always was with him. She'll be different but so will he. We have small snippets of what Sansa is turning into; we have no idea how Sandor's changing. I think (read: hope) that the ways in which they change will allow them to relate better to each other, rather than create distance or adversity.

The bloody cloak I liken to Sansa's own feelings of lost maidenhood... not literally, but figuratively in that she's coming to realize the full tragedy of her song and that her innocence and purity is gone when even the most vile of 'protectors' flees in fear and shame from her.

I like your comparison of Sansa's life to a song, and I agree that Sandor's departure parallels in some regards Sansa's loss of innocence. Good point.

The only part that doesn't fit is the kisses with LF but maybe that's because even though she feels empowered in every other area when it comes to LF she still feels like a scared little girl so rather than using the memory of the kiss that gives her power and agency as Alayne she goes back to retreating into herself as Sansa. So if she ever starts remembering the kiss while kissing LF it is our signal that she's starting to break free :lol:

The way I'm reading it, she knows LF is a legitimate threat. If she ever flirted with him, he'd have her in bed in the blink of an eye. As others have noted, it's a defense mechanism. It won't be safe for her to use her sexuality against LF until she can somehow physically ward off his advances. Sweetrobin is no threat to her. Ditto the hedge knights. So it's okay for her to flirt and let her mind wander with them. She's on a knife's edge with LF so she doesn't have that freedom with him. Personally, I don't ever want her to think of Sandor while kissing LF. :stillsick: