Sansa's Memory Related to Sandor III

[Alexia]

Agreed with Starbird.

Actually, I think one key difference is that Sansa doesn't really mind kissing Sweetrobin. She's not turned on by it or anything, but she uses kissing him as a way to get him to do what she wants. So she takes her mind off it by thinking of the Knight of Flowers (a socially appropriate crush) and then her brain wanders over to Sandor of its own volition.

OTOH, LF gives her the creeps. So instead of thinking on pleasant kisses and exploring her own sexuality therein, she "goes away inside" when he kisses her. She didn't think of Sandor kissing her when Dontos was slobbering all over her either. She did think of Sandor's kiss when Tyrion kissed her at the wedding, but it was less about basking in remembered sensation and more about abject horror and basically thinking that she preferred being kissed by the Hound than by Tyrion (which is how I interpreted her comparison of the two men).

[Été]

OTOH, LF gives her the creeps. So instead of thinking on pleasant kisses and exploring her own sexuality therein, she "goes away inside" when he kisses her. She didn't think of Sandor kissing her when Dontos was slobbering all over her either. She did think of Sandor's kiss when Tyrion kissed her at the wedding, but it was less about basking in remembered sensation and more about abject horror and basically thinking that she preferred being kissed by the Hound than by Tyrion (which is how I interpreted her comparison of the two men).

I laughed out loud at that on re-read. They get to the you-may-now-kiss-the-bride moment and Sansa thinks, "He is even uglier than the Hound." She's in the middle of her wedding thinking about how the Hound is better-looking. Oh, Sansa.

[littlebird_]

The way I'm reading it, she knows LF is a legitimate threat. If she ever flirted with him, he'd have her in bed in the blink of an eye. As others have noted, it's a defense mechanism. It won't be safe for her to use her sexuality against LF until she can somehow physically ward off his advances. Sweetrobin is no threat to her. Ditto the hedge knights. So it's okay for her to flirt and let her mind wander with them. She's on a knife's edge with LF so she doesn't have that freedom with him. Personally, I don't ever want her to think of Sandor while kissing LF. :stillsick:

well I am in the camp of NO to kissing LF :lol: but it is going to continue to happen and I think one way that the memory of the non-kiss can be significant from a reader POV is that if and when Sansa starts putting that memory in or when she starts internally reacting to it, it will be a way for us to see that she has moved from being scared by him to thinking she might be able to control him (of course this is assuming the kiss is her way of giving herself agency) I might be completely off :lol:

Actually, I think one key difference is that Sansa doesn't really mind kissing Sweetrobin. She's not turned on by it or anything, but she uses kissing him as a way to get him to do what she wants. So she takes her mind off it by thinking of the Knight of Flowers (a socially appropriate crush) and then her brain wanders over to Sandor of its own volition.

This is what I mean by the duality. On the one hand we have Alayne who is confident and uses kisses to get what she wants from sweetrobin (she just thinks of other thoughts while doing it to make it more bearable/controllable) and a girl who flirts with men and then we have Sansa who is creeped out by LF and scared out of her mind retreating into herself. So my point was that if and when Sansa/Alayne becomes ready to control her interactions with LF be it by trying to seduce him or some other way, the pattern in her internal thoughts will change. She will add more descriptions to the kisses and even remember the nonkiss and that is signify that she is starting to claim back agency in that situation.

I don't know if I am making sense :lol: but if the nonkiss is important in an internal way I think when she chooses to go back to it is supposed to tell us about her mental state in a given situation. If the nonkiss is her way of claiming agency then it not being remembered with LF is because she's scared and does not want agency but if in the future she does remember the nonkiss with LF it will show that her attitude toward LF is changing and she's becoming more confident in her interactions with him. I am just trying to figure out ways in which the nonkiss within the narrative can be a device to decipher her emotions.

[Starbird]

well I am in the camp of NO to kissing LF :

If the nonkiss is her way of claiming agency then it not being remembered with LF is because she's scared and does not want agency but if in the future she does remember the nonkiss with LF it will show that her attitude toward LF is changing and she's becoming more confident in her interactions with him. I am just trying to figure out ways in which the nonkiss within the narrative can be a device to decipher her emotions.

If it's between Sweetrobin and LF, I'll take LF every time. Having poor Sansa kiss her very young, infantilized, traumatized cousin just makes my stomach turn. :ack: Seriously, SR is going to have to go. He's not part of Sansa's everyday life in my fantasies of her reuniting with Sandor. Can you even imagine how he'd react to this kid? :stunned:

On a more serious note, I get what you're saying about the unkiss-memory-as-barometer-of-agency. It will be something to watch out for. Have we covered all of the instances in which Sandor comes up, or doesn't? My memory is not as good as some of yours so correct me if I'm wrong:

Thinks of Sandor:

Sweetrobin (non-threatening kissing cousin - blech)

Tyrion (more threatened by his mind than his rape-potential, possibly not physically intimidating)

Marillion (would-be rapist/physically intimidating)

Dontos (wishes he was more fierce like Sandor, but thinks this after she's left him, very free about kissing her yet she doesn't seem to feel threatened by him)

Doesn't Think of Sandor:

LF (in physical control of her, high rape potential, the only murderer on the list (Tyrion doesn't count yet))

On the surface, it looks like kind of a mixed bag. But I may be wrong. Let me know.

[littlespider]

And during Blackwater, when she sees Ilyn Payne in Maegor's holdfast, she wishes he were the Hound.

She also thinks of Sandor when she's trying to decide whether to go to Margaery's garden-party thing. "I wish the Hound were here." I found this hilarious.

Sansa: So, should I go to this party?

Sandor: What?! I don't f)(*&! care.

Sansa: But, like, what if none of them like me? They're the popular crowd now, and I'm totally not...

But in all seriousness, it's another moment where she's trying to make a decision and think for herself.

[Alexia]

If it's between Sweetrobin and LF, I'll take LF every time. Having poor Sansa kiss her very young, infantilized, traumatized cousin just makes my stomach turn. :ack: Seriously, SR is going to have to go. He's not part of Sansa's everyday life in my fantasies of her reuniting with Sandor. Can you even imagine how he'd react to this kid? :stunned:

Such a meanie you are. :crying: I like the little Sweetrobin, and I feel sorry for him, and I want him to escape LF's plot to murder him. He's just a little boy with a crush on a girl living in his household, like Bran with Meera. I think he's rather sweet with his crush on Sansa, myself.

I would list Tyrion as high rape potential in Sansa's mind. She was forcibly married off to him, he took things with her much further than her other assailants (making her strip naked, getting naked and showing off his erection, and touching her bare breast) and she had to sleep in his bed with him every night. Moreover, there was an expectation of sexual assault, he was being encouraged to assault her by others, and she would have no recourse if he did so (LF's advances are at least socially inappropriate and she might be able to appeal to others for help).

Plus, I'm not sure how non-physically intimidating Tyrion is. He was able to shove Cersei down onto the floor while threatening to break her arm, and he can swing an axe. I think he is rather muscular. How do you think she was threatened by his mind?

[brashcandy]

well I am in the camp of NO to kissing LF :lol: but it is going to continue to happen and I think one way that the memory of the non-kiss can be significant from a reader POV is that if and when Sansa starts putting that memory in or when she starts internally reacting to it, it will be a way for us to see that she has moved from being scared by him to thinking she might be able to control him (of course this is assuming the kiss is her way of giving herself agency) I might be completely off :lol:

This is what I mean by the duality. On the one hand we have Alayne who is confident and uses kisses to get what she wants from sweetrobin (she just thinks of other thoughts while doing it to make it more bearable/controllable) and a girl who flirts with men and then we have Sansa who is creeped out by LF and scared out of her mind retreating into herself. So my point was that if and when Sansa/Alayne becomes ready to control her interactions with LF be it by trying to seduce him or some other way, the pattern in her internal thoughts will change. She will add more descriptions to the kisses and even remember the nonkiss and that is signify that she is starting to claim back agency in that situation.

I don't know if I am making sense :lol: but if the nonkiss is important in an internal way I think when she chooses to go back to it is supposed to tell us about her mental state in a given situation. If the nonkiss is her way of claiming agency then it not being remembered with LF is because she's scared and does not want agency but if in the future she does remember the nonkiss with LF it will show that her attitude toward LF is changing and she's becoming more confident in her interactions with him. I am just trying to figure out ways in which the nonkiss within the narrative can be a device to decipher her emotions.

I have to agree with you here Littlebird. If she ever thinks of the kiss with LF it will mean she is ready to break free and out. :)

However, another scenario could develop. If, as I think, Mya Stone and Randa Royce play a role in helping Sansa to become more confident, less naive or shy etc, she may feel more comfortable in confessing this unkiss to them than she did with Margaery and her cousins. Randa Royce seems like the kind of girl who would encourage Sansa to rebel, perhaps escape from the proposed Harry the heir wedding ;)

If Lothor truly loves Mya, he may be persuaded to switch sides and help Sansa. Brune doesn't seem as disreputable as some other knight, so he might be willing to help out Alayne when he learns she is Sansa Stark, especially if she is the one to facilitate his romance with Mya.

[Été]

But in all seriousness, it's another moment where she's trying to make a decision and think for herself.

The newly-arrived Tyrells are yet another faction who have Sansa at their mercy. The fact she wants the Hound there suggests she's come to see him as an ally protecting her from the powers-that-be. ^_^ I think it's more that she feels a bit safer with him around in general than wanting his advice.

Except now you've got me wishing for any kind of artistic ability, cos all I can think of is A. Wingman Hound at the Tyrells' party, and B. him turning up to escort her to Margaery and doing a facepalm at, "Does my butt look big in this?" :laugh:

[littlebird_]

On a more serious note, I get what you're saying about the unkiss-memory-as-barometer-of-agency. It will be something to watch out for. Have we covered all of the instances in which Sandor comes up, or doesn't? My memory is not as good as some of yours so correct me if I'm wrong:

Thinks of Sandor:

Sweetrobin (non-threatening kissing cousin - blech)

Tyrion (more threatened by his mind than his rape-potential, possibly not physically intimidating)

Marillion (would-be rapist/physically intimidating)

Dontos (wishes he was more fierce like Sandor, but thinks this after she's left him, very free about kissing her yet she doesn't seem to feel threatened by him)

Doesn't Think of Sandor:

LF (in physical control of her, high rape potential, the only murderer on the list (Tyrion doesn't count yet))

On the surface, it looks like kind of a mixed bag. But I may be wrong. Let me know.

I think we might also need to put them sequentially:

the unkiss starts with her interactions with Margaery an environment in which she feels secure

- Margaery

- Tyrion (there is a high risk of rape here but at this moment she is very hard to read internally or even through memories of Sandor maybe also because she hears about Robb and Cat) but she is more closed of here but there is still internal reflection

- Marillon - there is threat but not as much as Tyrion - there is internal reflection and Sandor's memory

Sweetrobin - no threat at all so she not only uses the unkiss but thinks about interactions with him very clearly internally, we know when she's pitying him, when she's angry at him

With LF there is neither the kiss or the internal reflection

It is kind of mixed but I'll try and systematize it :lol:

I have to agree with you here Littlebird. If she ever thinks of the kiss with LF it will mean she is ready to break free and out. :)

However, another scenario could develop. If, as I think, Mya Stone and Randa Royce play a role in helping Sansa to become more confident, less naive or shy etc, she may feel more comfortable in confessing this unkiss to them than she did with Margaery and her cousins. Randa Royce seems like the kind of girl who would encourage Sansa to rebel, perhaps escape from the proposed Harry the heir wedding ;)

If Lothor truly loves Mya, he may be persuaded to switch sides and help Sansa. Brune doesn't seem as disreputable as some other knight, so he might be willing to help out Alayne when he learns she is Sansa Stark, especially if she is the one to facilitate his romance with Mya.

Doesn't Lothor already know her identity? Am I misremembering also :lol: But very true, the closer she gets with the girls I think the more independence she will demand and her internal reactions might start getting clearer

In an unrelated topic, going through her Sandor memories and how she reacts to Littlefinger I found this passage

when Littlefinger saw what she’d done he laughed. “If the tales be true, that’s not the first giant to end up with his head on Winterfell’s walls.”

“Those are only stories,” she said, and left him there.

What story is he referring to? Does anyone know

Also I found her reaction to LF there interesting, she's almost standoffish with him and that changes after Lysa's death

[Starbird]

Such a meanie you are. :crying: I like the little Sweetrobin, and I feel sorry for him, and I want him to escape LF's plot to murder him. He's just a little boy with a crush on a girl living in his household, like Bran with Meera. I think he's rather sweet with his crush on Sansa, myself.

I would list Tyrion as high rape potential in Sansa's mind. She was forcibly married off to him, he took things with her much further than her other assailants (making her strip naked, getting naked and showing off his erection, and touching her bare breast) and she had to sleep in his bed with him every night. Moreover, there was an expectation of sexual assault, he was being encouraged to assault her by others, and she would have no recourse if he did so (LF's advances are at least socially inappropriate and she might be able to appeal to others for help).

Plus, I'm not sure how non-physically intimidating Tyrion is. He was able to shove Cersei down onto the floor while threatening to break her arm, and he can swing an axe. I think he is rather muscular. How do you think she was threatened by his mind?

LOL Sorry, SR just gives me the creeps. For me, Bran won't be on par with him until he crawls into Meera's bed uninvited and starts nuzzling her breasts. SR and Sansa are first cousins, too. The ick factor is too high. I can understand why SR clings to her but the whole kissing/breast thing is too much for me.

Sansa's wedding night, I'll agree, had high rape potential but I think there's a small level of trust(?) that develops, when he says he'll go to whores if she doesn't want to sleep with him. And he came to her aide when she was stripped in the yard. I think she's threatened more by his mind because he can plan and plot, and is an intelligent enemy who has considerable power to wield, being a Lannister and the King's Hand. An attempted rape, she could at least see coming, but not knowing what he might do with her (as a captive, as heir to Winterfell, etc.) . . . well, the unknown is always worse.

I'd forgotten about Tyrion knocking Cersei to the ground. He probably is muscular but I'm not sure he's capable of holding a woman down, even a 12-year-old. I think he'd like to think of himself as being better than a rapist.

[Alexia]

Also I found her reaction to LF there interesting, she's almost standoffish with him and that changes after Lysa's death

In that scene, she was very relaxed and playful with him, even throwing snow at him and chiding him for not taking her to Winterfell. That changed when he kissed her. She becomes standoffish, as you note, and then she goes back to her room in a rage and starts hoping that Lysa will send her away from Marillion's sexual harrassment, LF's kisses, and the possibility of having to marry Sweetrobin.

LF had the chance to make a real daughter out of Sansa and you see it in that snow castle scene. But he completely destroyed the opportunity to have that sort of genuine relationship with Sansa, first by kissing her and then by throwing her aunt out the Moon Door. She doesn't trust him anymore.

[littlespider]

Except now you've got me wishing for any kind of artistic ability, cos all I can think of is A. Wingman Hound at the Tyrells' party, and B. him turning up to escort her to Margaery and doing a facepalm at, "Does my butt look big in this?" :laugh:

Ha! Sandor: "I dunno. Turn around and let me have another look."

[Alexia]

Sansa's wedding night, I'll agree, had high rape potential but I think there's a small level of trust(?) that develops, when he says he'll go to whores if she doesn't want to sleep with him.

There's no trust. Remember how he asks her about her brothers and she thinks that it must be some Lannister plot to trap her into saying treason? And Tyrion notes that she stiffens up every time he climbs into bed with her and looks at him in a way that reminds him of his dwarfism. She'd be pretty unwise to relax and trust him completely anyway -- during Joff's wedding, he was thinking on what would happen if he kissed her right then or if he told her he'd have her maidenhead that night.

I think he'd like to think of himself as being better than a rapist.

He is already a rapist of a young girl though, in the matter of Tysha, and that was so traumatic for him that he can't go through with it again with Sansa. I think that, in a way, he saw Sansa as his opportunity to stand up to his father and refuse as he wished he'd done with Tysha. As an opportunity for redemption, so to speak.

[Starbird]

- Tyrion (there is a high risk of rape here but at this moment she is very hard to read internally or even through memories of Sandor maybe also because she hears about Robb and Cat) but she is more closed of here but there is still internal reflection

- Marillon - there is threat but not as much as Tyrion - there is internal reflection and Sandor's memory

Also I found her reaction to LF there interesting, she's almost standoffish with him and that changes after Lysa's death

I disagree about Tyrion/Marillon. Being married, Sansa had to expect consummation. It would have been unpleasant for her but not a surprise. Marillon literally came out of the dark to force himself on her. I'd find that even scarier.

Standoffish: well, she did see him commit murder. After that, she probably figured it was in her best interest not to be difficult.

[Starbird]

There's no trust. Remember how he asks her about her brothers and she thinks that it must be some Lannister plot to trap her into saying treason? And Tyrion notes that she stiffens up every time he climbs into bed with her and looks at him in a way that reminds him of his dwarfism. She'd be pretty unwise to relax and trust him completely anyway -- during Joff's wedding, he was thinking on what would happen if he kissed her right then or if he told her he'd have her maidenhead that night.

He is already a rapist of a young girl though, in the matter of Tysha, and that was so traumatic for him that he can't go through with it again with Sansa. I think that, in a way, he saw Sansa as his opportunity to stand up to his father and refuse as he wished he'd done with Tysha. As an opportunity for redemption, so to speak.

This is why I think she's more afraid of his mind, rather than a sexual assault. I'm not saying she trusts him absolutely, but she recognizes that he's been kind to her here and there.

Agreed.

[Starbird]

LF had the chance to make a real daughter out of Sansa and you see it in that snow castle scene. But he completely destroyed the opportunity to have that sort of genuine relationship with Sansa, first by kissing her and then by throwing her aunt out the Moon Door. She doesn't trust him anymore.

This is a very good point but Sansa picked up on his creep factor way back in KL. He wasn't as overt, of course, but didn't he make some comment to her (during the Hand's Tourney?) about her hair or how much she looks like her mother did at that age, or something? I can't recall but it seems to me he made his attraction to her known very early on.

[littlebird_]

I disagree about Tyrion/Marillon. Being married, Sansa had to expect consummation. It would have been unpleasant for her but not a surprise. Marillon literally came out of the dark to force himself on her. I'd find that even scarier.

Expecting consummation is what makes it scary for her, she has no way to defend herself against him, with Marillon she's no longer a Lannister hostage, I am just going by her memories of Sandor here to determine the level of threat she felt :lol: but other than the nonkiss she also thinks she heard his voice

so maybe there needs to be a differentiation between the memories of the nonkiss (her trying to claim agency) and wishing Sandor was present (her feeling unsafe)

In that scene, she was very relaxed and playful with him, even throwing snow at him and chiding him for not taking her to Winterfell. That changed when he kissed her. She becomes standoffish, as you note, and then she goes back to her room in a rage and starts hoping that Lysa will send her away from Marillion's sexual harrassment, LF's kisses, and the possibility of having to marry Sweetrobin.

You can actually for a few moments there see Sansa come out of shell that she has been in for years and then LF destroys it :(

[Été]

This is a very good point but Sansa picked up on his creep factor way back in KL. He wasn't as overt, of course, but didn't he make some comment to her (during the Hand's Tourney?) about her hair or how much she looks like her mother did at that age, or something? I can't recall but it seems to me he made his attraction to her known very early on.

During the Hand's tourney:

“Your mother was my queen of beauty once,” the man said quietly. His breath smelled of mint. “You have her hair.” His fingers brushed against her cheek as he stroked one auburn lock. Quite abruptly he turned and walked away.

After Eddard's arrest, when Cersei summons Sansa before the Small Council:

Grand Maester Pycelle kept his sleepy eyes on the papers in front of him, but she could feel Littlefinger staring. Something about the way the small man looked at her made Sansa feel as though she had no clothes on. Goose bumps pimpled her skin.

Super-creepy.

[Alexia]

Expecting consummation is what makes it scary for her, she has no way to defend herself against him, with Marillon she's no longer a Lannister hostage, I am just going by her memories of Sandor here to determine the level of threat she felt :lol: but other than the nonkiss she also thinks she heard his voice

With Marillion, she started to use Lysa as a threat (my aunt) but then used LF as a threat -- my father will hang you. Marillion can't assault her without repercussions and she threatened him with them. With Tyrion, she started drinking wine in the hopes that drunkenness would ease the trauma of being raped and did exactly as he told her (taking off her clothes, getting in to bed, not covering herself with the blankets...).

She was absolutely terrified of Tyrion on the wedding night. Marillion scared her but not to the same extent.

[Starbird]

Expecting consummation is what makes it scary for her, she has no way to defend herself against him, with Marillon she's no longer a Lannister hostage, I am just going by her memories of Sandor here to determine the level of threat she felt :lol: but other than the nonkiss she also thinks she heard his voice

so maybe there needs to be a differentiation between the memories of the nonkiss (her trying to claim agency) and wishing Sandor was present (her feeling unsafe)

You can actually for a few moments there see Sansa come out of shell that she has been in for years and then LF destroys it :(

Yes and no re: expecting consummation. I think the ability to mentally prepare for such a thing, however horrifying, is at least somewhat better than being taken by surprise.

I agree about the differentiation.

I actually really liked LF in that moment, when they were playing the snow. It's one of the few times anyone in these books actually seems to be having fun. When he first showed up, I thought he was going to somehow disparage what she was doing but he played along and I loved it and wondered how Cat could have withstood his charm. But, you're right, he got all foreplay-y and ruined it. :thumbsdown: