Jojen Reed's fate? (ADWD Spoilers)

[iNinja]

A few thing come into play in my mind lending credence some doubts about the CotF/3EC intentions with Bran/Meera/Jojen/Hodor:

1- Cannibalism as a recurring theme in this book.

2- Greenseers, do they have to have green or red eyes? Because Bran has blue. Gives me the feeling 3EC is being misleading and has other intentions for Bran.

3- Big pile of bones on the stroll down into the caves brought Gendel's Children to mind.

4- After Bran eats the weirwood paste, Jojen and Meera are not around. Along with how it looked like it had veins, Bran almost retching it up then thinking it was almost the best thing he ever ate by the time he finishes.

5- ColdHands feeding them them some "pigs."

6- There has to be some reason the Andals cut down all those weirwood trees. Especially now that we know some of how they can be used.

7- Bran seeing the sacrifice through the wierwood and tasting the blood.

8- "The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife." He does mention the moon going through a few changes, but why this particular description of time passing.

9- I don't like how they are trapped in the cave with tons of wights just outside blocking their way out. Just seems to well setup.

I don't know if any of this necessarily makes them evil, but I do feel like they are being deceptive. They may even be on the good side of this, but that doesn't mean that Bran/Meera/Jojen/Hodor are going to be happy with each of their individual fates.

Jojen is in Bran's belly. I think Greenseers need crannogman paste/weirwood mash to make them see clearly. I also think Howland Reed was made into paste for Bloodraven.

[Hellebore]

I doubt Howland Reed was paste for Bloodraven.. I'm even pretty sure GRRM has said in an interview that Howland Reed could not come into the story sooner because he knows too much about the big reveals that will come out ..

[iNinja]

I doubt Howland Reed was paste for Bloodraven.. I'm even pretty sure GRRM has said in an interview that Howland Reed could not come into the story sooner because he knows too much about the big reveals that will come out ..

Maybe Howlands wife is paste.Whats her name, Lyla or something. I forget.

[Theo1]

Lots of canibalism in this last book. Lots of sacrifices in the last book. The moon was thin and sharp as a sickle (three times in the chapter), like a bronze one yielded by a white haired chick in the vision. There is way too much evidence here to dismiss the Joren was more probably than not made into the paste. His brooding; he is the one who needs to be afraid; he cannot run from his fate; his job was done getting Bran to BR (and then being served up for a greater purpose).

Bran seemed fine eating rat, because it tasted good. He almost retched with the first of the WW paste (that looked like blood veins, but it was probably just WW sap "he supposed"), but he really started to like it. Joren is like scotch, he is an aquired taste!

In terms of Meera, here is my relationship advice to Bran. Be honest and direct. "Meera, I ate your little brother. But, he was getting pretty depressed. Best thing for him really. On the plus side, he actually tasted pretty good. And now, guess what? I can make weir wood leaves rustle in a way that vaguely sounds like words so that people look at trees with troubled looks. Now, as Lenny K would ask, I just want to know if you are going to go my way, because before long I am going to be hooked up to one of these trees and mushrooms are going to be growing out of my head. What do you say?"

It is going to make the courtship of Meera a bit harder I would think.

[Efilnikufesin]

Hey, wouldn't it be an interesting twist if Jojen Reed is Howland Reed pretending to be his son? It is always says he looks young but acts old, maybe crannogmen look perpetually like children.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

In time it will become clear that Bloodraven is training Bran to become the "Great Other", rather than the "Last Greenseer". The "Last Greenseer" is just a euphemism. Bloodraven controls the White Walkers and the wights. He has a thousand eyes, and one.

[davidjones2492]

Argument against it being Jojen's blood in the paste: it is described as bitter. If you've ever sucked a cut you will know that blood is not bitter, its very salty.

Acorns however can be used to make coffee and are very bitter.

[gedo]

I'd imagine Jejen uploaded a good-bye video on "WeiTube" which Bran will eventually view over the "treenet". "(Jejen talking to the tree) Bran, if you are seeing this, you did it. *We* did it. Don't cry. Don't be hard on 3EC. I knew today is the day I die. Take care my sis (tears). Go save the world. Bye. (kill himself)".

[ipsuel]

I'd imagine Jejen uploaded a good-bye video on "WeiTube" which Bran will eventually view over the "treenet". "(Jejen talking to the tree) Bran, if you are seeing this, you did it. *We* did it. Don't cry. Don't be hard on 3EC. I knew today is the day I die. Take care my sis (tears). Go save the world. Bye. (kill himself)".

Lol, what a morbidly interesting idea!

[Brucolac]

I doubt he actually got killed in the background like that, but it was yet another incredibly annoying cliffhanger in ADwD, even more so because it happened halfway through the book.

[Theo1]

Biter could always be a metaphor. My blood may not be bitter, but it might be biter if I were eating my friend and part of me knew it, even though I did not want to admit it.

Plus, the blood is not the only thing in there. When you suck your own blood (hope this isn't too regular a thing) do you have other weir wood ingredients in it?

[nanother]

Hmm, the only way it could make sense to me, if for whatever reason the same blood needs to be shared between the trees and the greenseeer. Then Jojen could have been sacrificed and some of his blood mixed into the paste. I'm sure it's possible to conceive a reason why it might be necessary, but I think all the signs to imply anything like this are so random and disconnected that it feels more like a red herring to me.

Yes, the First Men made sacrifices to the 'Old Gods', which are apparently weirwood trees with the consciousness of greenseers in them. That doesn't mean they actually needed to - would such a tree need or want blood? sure, it might, but at this point I don't see a compelling reason to assume so. By the way, it's jolly good that trees can see and remember, but how much influence do they have on how things turn out? Might be that all those prayers and sacrifices are mostly pointless, unless one can actually hear what the trees answer. Most people claerly don't, but I'm just now re-reading the Bran chapter when he prays for Robb&co and Osha translates the whispering of the tree as the gods saying Robb's marching the wrong way. Not sure what to make of that - does Osha have some special talent, or can all wildlings understand the trees, or what? If it was Osha instead of Ned in Bran's first vision, would she actually have understood him?

Also, I find it hard to believe that Bran didn't taste the blood in the first spoonful of paste if it was there. And seeing a vision of some long ago sacrifice some time later, and tasting the blood then seems a bit random. It certainly creates the mood, but as far as in-Westeros factual evidence goes it's not terribly strong.

Also, it wouldn't be the first time Martin 'suggests' the death of some character only for him to turn up well and alive in the next book.

[gonzoaster11]

I'm torn on the Jojen in the paste concept. I think the argument for him being in the paste is believable. However, with the numerous "today is the not the day I die" comments, I always favored the idea of Jojen dying on screen shortly after saying "today is the day I die." But of course, it would be foolish of me to expect the expected out of GRRM.

Regardless, I do think that Jojen's death, either learning of it or having it happen, will be the impetus for Bran to leave the cave. There is a conveniently available underground river (so they don't have to pass the wights or deal with weather) that probably runs all the way past the Wall (didn't they mention the river when they passed under the Wall? I definitely remember a river being under the Wall), and Bran is conveniently with a very capable Crannogperson (Meera).

[Theo1]

The day bran eats the paste is not a day where Joren says "today is not my day to die"

[Verboten]

Weirwoods have been described as having red sap or bloodlike sap since Game of Thrones. Just throwing that out there.

[Glyn Tarvoke]

In ADWD Asha's chapter The Sacrifice, "Eight days ago, Asha had walked out with Aly Mormont to have a closer look at the [weirwood's] slitted red eyes and bloody mouth. It is only sap, she told herself, ....But her eyes were unconvinced; seeing was believing, and what they saw was frozen blood."

Maybe the cotf fed Jojen to Bran but I think they just fed him a paste of weirwood seeds, which have sap that is a lot like human blood. I think Jojen will die in the caves or maybe he and his sister will leave the caves to try and make it home but poor Jojen ain't strong enough to make it.

[Lady Lars]

Weirwoods have been described as having red sap or bloodlike sap since Game of Thrones. Just throwing that out there.

Exactly my thought. And weirwoods are said to keep growing forever, as long as they are not cut down. It's worth considering that they feed on the dead in some manner -- human dead or the dead of the CotF. Or perhaps they actually have blood coursing through them.

[tfranco9]

So creepy. But I don´t know if i belive. But it fits with Mallisandre vision of them beeing the enemy. I really hope Bran isn´t sleeping with the enemy.

[Silmarien]

I recently reread the Bran and Reed chapters in the COTF caves with Bloodraven and a sneaking suspicion I had in my first read through has solidified into something I would be surprised to find out not to be true. This being: Jojen Reed was sacrificed to the Old Gods and then fed to Bran in the weirwood paste in order to awaken his latent ability to warg into weirwood.

Now, you have to read between the lines in order to come to this conclusion, but I believe the hints are disturbingly clear in retrospect. Jojen's deepening gloom and sense of his impending demise, Bran seeing ancient Men sacrificing humans to the Old Gods and then tasting their blood, Bran's initial perception that the weirwood paste had blood in it and his initial revulsion at its taste, and finally Bran's looking for Jojen and Meera as his last chapter in the book closes and not finding them. Also, to a lesser extent, the ancient bones of animals and humans scattered through the caves.

Add on top of this a broader theme in Martin's work; that magic comes with a price. Dany's sacrifice of her unborn child to "save" Drogo and burning of the witch to wake the dragons. The burnt human sacrifices that the Fire God's disciples give him for power. Craster sacrificing his sons to the Others. Bran having to partake in a human sacrifice for his expanded powers would fit perfectly into this pattern. Which is why, along with the context clues in his chapters, I believe Jojen was that sacrifice. Which is dark. And creepy. And kind of pretty freakin' cool.

Thoughts? Counter arguments? I also realize that this is probably not a original take on this chapter, but I have not seen it discussed recently and am curious to see how many people had the same idea that I have about it.

I don't think GRRM would kill Jojen Reed offscreen. He's a secondary character, yes, but I don't think he'd be so damned vague about it (he'd just let us know that this was Jojen's "day to die" etc.).

GRRM definitely WANTS the reader to notice these gloomy undertones he adds to Bran's chapter, notice the repetition regarding the moon phases. The "sickle" is used in other chapters prior and after Bran's as well.

I think he meant to establish an uneasy tone in Bran's chapter because we're supposed to question who BR (really) is, who the CoTF (really) are, what is greenseeing?, and then, back to Bran and his visions, and the others with him (Hodor, Jojen and Meera are basically stuck there, because of the wights).

All we know is that Jojen is moody, and grim, and says "You are not the one who has to be afraid!". Jojen also says "This is not the day I die". I think there's been a lot of buildup to not have Jojen say the counter, "This is the day I die" if GRRM is going to kill off Howland Reed's only son (that we know of). Plus, that's such a BAMF line!

We get the sense that the weirwood paste acts similarly to what Dany experienced when she drank the shade-of-the-evening (first tasting bad/bitter, then neutral/sweeter, then tasting good/very sweet). I think it's just a magic thing and not a "We needed human blood" thing.

I think GRRM is setting Jojen up to be killed with a sickle, perhaps even near a Weirwood tree, but that it hasn't happened yet. There's more to the story of Jojen and Meera than merely being tourguides for Bran and Hodor from Winterfell to BR's Cave. At least I hope we didn't get all this character buildup, bonding, and creation for nothing.

It's another "sorta" cliffhanger in ADWD that GRRM had. I think it was just the fact there was so much Jon and Dany materiel, that others got kinda cut. I barely felt like Arya, Davos, Bran, Cersei, Jaime and Brienne were even there. Some of The Wall stuff could've been cut (like the chapter that is exclusively a trip to the weirwood grove north of the wall for them to pick up MORE wildlings, Wun Wun, and corpses....plus GRRM could've cut smaller parts out of other Wall chapters. Selyse's stuff was boring and seemed kinda unnecessary - does Jon really have to care what the secondary "Queen" says about his ongoing activities? It's none of her business! Stannis wasn't there, Jon could've taken more control of the situation than he did.

(I don't say this as antifeminist or anything, I just didn't find anything interesting about Jon's interactions with Selyse, Shireen, Patchface to be entertaining or adding anything to the story other than "Aw poor Shireen. Creepy and sad Patchface. Selyse is a bitch!")

And obviously, and this is a popular opinion, a lot of Mereen stuff should've come out. I won't even go there because this thread will turn into another Dany debate and I'm NOT trying to derail. I just wish GRRM had edited his two main stories down a bit more and added more to non-Jon/Dany POV characters' stories.

[The Mother of The Others]

We get the sense that the weirwood paste acts similarly to what Dany experienced when she drank the shade-of-the-evening (first tasting bad/bitter, then neutral/sweeter, then tasting good/very sweet). I think it's just a magic thing and not a "We needed human blood" thing.

Like Bran's first sip of beer. Ha.

Weirbeer.

It's a tiny bit more likely for the tree's magic paste to include blood compared to shade of the evening. The blood sacrifices are apparently what woke the trees up and made them into a combination of plant and animal, with meat eater appetites. So blood paste might just be the ongoing currency used by greenseers to "log on" to the tree magic internet.

I don't think Jojen's dead. And I don't think we're going to see Evil Bran emerge from this, even if Jojen is volunteering his blood for the paste. Greenseers are close to neutral, since they're nature-aligned. In fact, Bran's struggle against the trees might be that they want him to be absolutely neutral but he'll still want to strike a blow for the home team.