Jojen Reed's fate? (ADWD Spoilers)

[sotrain515]

I guess I'm a little late to the party, but I wanted to weigh in anyway. I think the JojenPaste people are right on the money. To all the people who keep pointing out that weirwood tree sap looks like blood: don't you get it? That's the genius of the whole thing, George has been hinting at bloodmagic being a part of the old gods' tradition since Book 1! Martin is probably the best "foreshadower" I've ever read, and he clearly has this whole story mapped out already (Chris Carter he ain't). The fact that weirwood sap and blood are just about the same thing makes it more likely that Jojen is dead, not less. Also, great pickup on the weirwood that was surrounded by death being huge in White Harbour, to the people who said that. Makes me wonder if the reason weirwoods can't grow at Castle Arryn isn't because of its altitude but rather because they throw their prisoners out the Moon Door / Sky Cells as opposed to other means. Perhaps there aren't enough dead buried on top of the mountain for the tree to feed on? *shudder*

And to those saying that Jojen could have just done a little Red Cross-style donation, GRRM addressed that specifically with the leeches in the brazier in Book 2. Bloodmagic is an all-or-nothing kind of thing, it would seem. Regardless of how much Jojen-blood went into the actual paste, the fact that it was life's blood is what made it powerful.

Jojen is going to die when he returns to Greywater Watch. He saw it in a dream. And that's important for Bran's story. Will he go with Meera and Jojen to GW?

If there was blood in the Woodpaste, then we must think from where, but I don't believe it was from Jojen ou Meera (as I said, he will die in GW). I cant imagine the reason why Bran didn't find them, maybe it's just Martin's troll to make us believe they are gone.

And not to single you out, as other people have said this, but I'm quoting you since you were the most recent poster. Here's the relavent quote from ADWD that seems to be causing the confusion:

“He wants to go home,” Meera told Bran. “He will not even try and fight his fate. He says the greendreams do not lie.”

“He’s being brave,” said Bran. The only time a man can be brave is when he is afraid, his father had told him once, long ago, on the day they found the direwolf pups in the summer snows. He still remembered.

“He’s being stupid,” Meera said. “I’d hoped that when we found your three-eyed crow … now I wonder why we ever came.”

For me, Bran thought. “His greendreams,” he said.

“His greendreams.” Meera’s voice was bitter.

“Hodor,” said Hodor. Meera began to cry.

This does not imply that Jojen sees his death as happening at his home. Quite the opposite, Meera thinks Jojen wants to go back to Greywater but will not admit it and is resigned to his fate in the caves, presumably his death. It ties in with the fact that Jojen is afraid ("Bran isn't the one who needs to be afraid") because he knows his number is almost up.

[Patchface12]

Is it possible Howland, who knows a bit of greenseering, knew this was going to happen and deliberately sent Jojen and Meera to Winterfell for that reason, under the guise of being wards? Maybe Jojen knew how he was going to die and deliberately sacrificed himself for the good of defeating the Others.

I thought Jojen would die when the wights are somehow able to get into the Cave (when the Wall falls?), via Bran warging into him right before his own body was killed. Tho if Jojen's already dead, he can still do this to Meera

[CrypticWeirwood]

Weirwood paste is supposed to resemble human blood. A weirwood is a werewood, a weretree, a man-tree. That’s why it has white skin and red leaves, and faces. That doesn’t mean Bran ate Jojen.

[sotrain515]

Weirwood paste is supposed to resemble human blood. A weirwood is a werewood, a weretree, a man-tree. That’s why it has white skin and red leaves, and faces. That doesn’t mean Bran ate Jojen.

Good point! But that gets right to the heart of the matter, doesn't it? A weirwood is a man-tree in a literal sense, not just a metaphorical or spiritual one. It has literal blood flowing through its "veins" thanks to whatever blood magic created it in the first place. That is why the one in White Harbor is fat and humungous, because it has gorged on all the sacrifices there. And that is probably why they can't grow in the Eyrie, because there have been no blood sacrifices made in that castle due to the Moon Door and Sky Cells.

What this all boils down to is that the old gods have demanded blood sacrifice in return for their service since the Dawn Age (or whenever; when just the CotF were worshipping them). Now that Bran is beyond the Wall, where the CotF still exist, I think he will find that blood sacrifice is still required. Perhaps both Bran and the tree he "wargs" into (dunno if that's a good term but you know what I mean) both have to drink the same blood (Jojen-blood) to be bound together.

This sort of casts the old gods and the North in a whole new light. When we learn of the Andals coming in and cutting down all the weirwoods and driving the CotF back North, we are sympathetic to the First Men and the CotF (or at least, I was). But really, if the Andals knew of the way in which the weirwoods were created, they would see them as abominations! It's hard to blame them, really; trees that feed on the blood of men?? Horrific. I know I wouldn't want one anywhere near me...

As a final note, I wonder if the Starks were at one point a much different House. We know that they are the only major House that is still (mostly) of the blood of the First Men. They are the only major House that still worships the old gods, though they are apparently unaware of the blood sacrifice their religion is built on. We know that in the past they ruled the North as the "Kings of Winter"... At one point in the story a note is made that the Stark words are the only ones that are a warning as opposed to a boast. "Winter is coming" is used throughout the books as a way of saying something like "knock on wood" or whatever. This is in contrast to "We do not sow", "Unbent, unbowed, unbroken", "Hear me roar", etc. of the other major Houses. But what if, at one time, "Winter is coming" was meant as a boast, as well? As in, you southerners / Andals / enemies of the old gods better look out, because winter is on its way and when it comes, we are gonna be pissed.

[Francis Buck]

As a final note, I wonder if the Starks were at one point a much different House. We know that they are the only major House that is still (mostly) of the blood of the First Men. They are the only major House that still worships the old gods, though they are apparently unaware of the blood sacrifice their religion is built on. We know that in the past they ruled the North as the "Kings of Winter"... At one point in the story a note is made that the Stark words are the only ones that are a warning as opposed to a boast. "Winter is coming" is used throughout the books as a way of saying something like "knock on wood" or whatever. This is in contrast to "We do not sow", "Unbent, unbowed, unbroken", "Hear me roar", etc. of the other major Houses. But what if, at one time, "Winter is coming" was meant as a boast, as well? As in, you southerners / Andals / enemies of the old gods better look out, because winter is on its way and when it comes, we are gonna be pissed.

I've been saying this since ADwD came out. :)

You should come to the Heresy thread, where this and much more is discussed in detail.

[Faint]

It does seem likely the Reeds and Hodor will eventually perish within the confines of Bran's POV given their location. That said, I am firm believer that we will be witness to Jojen's death given how much has gone on about him knowing the day he'll die -- that's simply too much of a tease for his death to occur off-screen.

The person I feel bad about in all this is Meera. She's probably going to end up sacrificing her life unwillingly and for a cause she doesn't understand.

[Miriel]

Jojen is going to die when he returns to Greywater Watch. He saw it in a dream. And that's important for Bran's story. Will he go with Meera and Jojen to GW?

If there was blood in the Woodpaste, then we must think from where, but I don't believe it was from Jojen ou Meera (as I said, he will die in GW). I cant imagine the reason why Bran didn't find them, maybe it's just Martin's troll to make us believe they are gone.

Can you elaborate or cite that dream please? This is what I took from the Meera/Bran convo in which she said "he wants to go home, he won't even try to fight his fate" (paraphrasing a bit here as I don't have book handy right now). But I do not recall a dream where Jojen saw himself dying at GW.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

Currently, Jojenpaste theorists have about as much going for them as moon landing theorists. There is nothing to indicate with any kind of confidence that Bran is essentially eating Jojen.

[J_Crews]

The JojenPaste (such an exciting word!) theory seems to be the most plausible, given the evidence in the chapter. However, I feel closing Bran off into the weirwoods and sacrificing his friends seems to run counter to the general theme of maturation and growing up that characterizes all the child POVs in the series. If the JojenPaste theory is true and he was killed offscreen, I doubt we will see much more of Bran as his character now has much less room to interact and develop in interesting ways.

I sort of imagine Bran seeing Jojen's death in the prologue of TWoW. Remember, time has no meaning when viewing video clips on Weirtube. He'll be mega-pissed, warg Hodor, grab his own skinsuit, free Meera (who's soon to be sacrificed next), and R-U-N-N-O-F-T.

[J_Crews]

In time it will become clear that Bloodraven is training Bran to become the "Great Other", rather than the "Last Greenseer". The "Last Greenseer" is just a euphemism. Bloodraven controls the White Walkers and the wights. He has a thousand eyes, and one.

Ba-boom! My thoughts as well.

[J_Crews]

Good point! But that gets right to the heart of the matter, doesn't it? A weirwood is a man-tree in a literal sense, not just a metaphorical or spiritual one. It has literal blood flowing through its "veins" thanks to whatever blood magic created it in the first place. That is why the one in White Harbor is fat and humungous, because it has gorged on all the sacrifices there. And that is probably why they can't grow in the Eyrie, because there have been no blood sacrifices made in that castle due to the Moon Door and Sky Cells.

What this all boils down to is that the old gods have demanded blood sacrifice in return for their service since the Dawn Age (or whenever; when just the CotF were worshipping them). Now that Bran is beyond the Wall, where the CotF still exist, I think he will find that blood sacrifice is still required. Perhaps both Bran and the tree he "wargs" into (dunno if that's a good term but you know what I mean) both have to drink the same blood (Jojen-blood) to be bound together.

This sort of casts the old gods and the North in a whole new light. When we learn of the Andals coming in and cutting down all the weirwoods and driving the CotF back North, we are sympathetic to the First Men and the CotF (or at least, I was). But really, if the Andals knew of the way in which the weirwoods were created, they would see them as abominations! It's hard to blame them, really; trees that feed on the blood of men?? Horrific. I know I wouldn't want one anywhere near me...

As a final note, I wonder if the Starks were at one point a much different House. We know that they are the only major House that is still (mostly) of the blood of the First Men. They are the only major House that still worships the old gods, though they are apparently unaware of the blood sacrifice their religion is built on. We know that in the past they ruled the North as the "Kings of Winter"... At one point in the story a note is made that the Stark words are the only ones that are a warning as opposed to a boast. "Winter is coming" is used throughout the books as a way of saying something like "knock on wood" or whatever. This is in contrast to "We do not sow", "Unbent, unbowed, unbroken", "Hear me roar", etc. of the other major Houses. But what if, at one time, "Winter is coming" was meant as a boast, as well? As in, you southerners / Andals / enemies of the old gods better look out, because winter is on its way and when it comes, we are gonna be pissed.

This. So, very, very this. It fits perfectly with GRRM's aversion to goody-two-shoes happy-town characters. Just because the Starks we see now are good and honorable, that doesn't mean they always were. Even in semi-recent times, Ned's brother Brandon was obviously a d!ck from the things we've been told, and their father Lord Rickard was described as "having southron ambitions," far from the image of Ned who only goes south reluctantly and detests every minute of it. Not that that equates with human sacrifice, etc., but just shows they haven't all been like Ned, Benjen, and, ostensibly, Lyanna. We're also told plainly by one of the kids (Bran?) at one point that the old Kings in the North were hard, sometimes ruthless men, IIRC.

[Lyonel B]

Surely the fact that Jojen has foreseen his own death upon his return to Greywater Watch renders all the above speculation useless.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

Surely the fact that Jojen has foreseen his own death upon his return to Greywater Watch renders all the above speculation useless.

You're talking about what Meera says in that one Bran chapter, yes? I mean this (paraphrasing):

"He wants to go home. He's not even trying to fight his destiny."

You (and I, and others) read it like this:

"He wants to go home [because] he's not even trying to fight his destiny." As in: He want's to go home, because he knows that that is where he'll die.

Apparently, some have this interpretation:

"He wants to got home [but] he's not even trying to fight his destiny." As in: He would like to go home, but he won't.

Go figure... :dunno:

ETA: If people start arguing for or against either interpretation, someone should probably dig out the real quote and not use what I wrote here...

[The Crannogman]

Fun thread about the idea that Jojen may actually be Howland Reed. I'll take that over Bran eating Jojen paste, however you never know.

[Quentyn the Blazed]

I sort of imagine Bran seeing Jojen's death in the prologue of TWoW. Remember, time has no meaning when viewing video clips on Weirtube. He'll be mega-pissed, warg Hodor, grab his own skinsuit, free Meera (who's soon to be sacrificed next), and R-U-N-N-O-F-T.

Haha then they go sing into a can and become an old timey sensation!

[CKPS63]

Come to think of it though, those undead warlocks were a mighty creepy bunch. I wouldn't be surprised if they were grinding folks up to make their shade of the evening. In fact, if I had to lay odds on who is more likely to turn out to be eating people, the CoTF or the undead warlocks, my money's on the warlocks.

In fact, isn't shade of the evening described as having an odor like dead flesh?

[J_Crews]

Haha then they go sing into a can and become an old timey sensation!

It's been a bit since I've been on here. Glad somebody got the "O Brother, Where Art Thou?" reference. ;)

[accom]

if jojen is dead already then where is meera? she isn't needed for the paste or sacrifice. the fact that bran cant find jojen isn't proof of anything, because he should at least have found meera. she wouldn't leave bran in the hands of cannible tree people. unless something bad happened to her too i cant imagine anything happening to jojen. unless you argue that jojen gave himself up without telling meera. i dont see that as likely. more likely its a foreshadow of things to come.

[Ittiz]

GRRM May have set things up the way he did to give himself flexability. Maybe he had several ideas about what he wanted to do with the characters, but it depeneded on several as of yet undecided outcomes. So he just wrote it in a way that would allow him to decide later.

[Wouter]

You're talking about what Meera says in that one Bran chapter, yes? I mean this (paraphrasing):

"He wants to go home. He's not even trying to fight his destiny."

You (and I, and others) read it like this:

"He wants to go home [because] he's not even trying to fight his destiny." As in: He want's to go home, because he knows that that is where he'll die.

Apparently, some have this interpretation:

"He wants to got home [but] he's not even trying to fight his destiny." As in: He would like to go home, but he won't.

Go figure... :dunno:

ETA: If people start arguing for or against either interpretation, someone should probably dig out the real quote and not use what I wrote here...

"Jojen had even taken to climbing up to the cave’s mouth when the day was bright. He would stand there for hours, looking out over the forest, wrapped in furs yet shivering all the same.

“He wants to go home,” Meera told Bran. “He will not even try and fight his fate. He says the greendreams do not lie.”

“He’s being brave,” said Bran. The only time a man can be brave is when he is afraid, his father had told him once, long ago, on the day they found the direwolf pups in the summer snows. He still remembered.

“He’s being stupid,” Meera said. “I’d hoped that when we found your three-eyed crow … now I wonder why we ever came.”

For me, Bran thought. “His greendreams,” he said.

“His greendreams.” Meera’s voice was bitter."

That's the quote from the book. Now, I think it cannot be concluded with certainty that this means Jojen has seen he will die "at home" (Greywater). "Going home" in this instance would also mean travelling through zombie-infested (right at the exit of the cage, actually!), frozen lands with hardly any food to find. In this context, I don't see how Jojen, alone or even with Meera, would ever reach the Wall, much less Greywater Watch. "Going home" sounds like giving up, in this instance.

What did Meera hope the three-eyed crow would say or do? Tell Jojen that he was wrong, that his dreams can be changed?