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Jojen Reed's fate? (ADWD Spoilers)


starkloyalist

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I can see both sides of this Jojen paste dilemma. Now regarding Jojen as Christ-figure, as I have said before, he is drawn very like “Simon” in William Golding’s Lord of the Flies, and Simon sacrifices his own life in order to bring the savages the truth that there is no beast on the mountaintop, but just a dead man. Simon even foresees his own death and goes down to meet his fate regardless –such was his faith in mankind.

In this way, Jojen may also symbolically or allegorically a Christ-like figure who represents spiritual goodness, and in this mind set might he willingly give his life for another. However, the Christ-figure in literature has become trite [Gatsby is the Christ-figure in the novel that has his name, the air mattress his cross; Ahab is the Christ figure in Moby Dick, bound with his arms outstretched, tied to the White Whale that made him a monomaniac; and I could go on!] So would Martin be trite in his novel, or is such a figure who represents true goodness just a standard part of the fantasy genre?

As I said, I’m not sure myself. I keep going back and forth. I believe in the possible existence of Jojen paste; but IMO, it is not an option for Jojen’s fate that I like to think about, truly.

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It's difficult to explain that he had to eat his friend for the greater good and they're trying to avoid doing it for as long as possible or when he has a better understanding of what is at play, rather than telling him now and having him not trust them and refusing to continue training.

Bran doesn't see Meera after the paste.

I'm going to have to re-read some, but I recall Bran's observation that Meera had become increasingly upset over time. It also seems to me that he would note her absence. Remember that Bran is in love with Meera (or at least has a crush on her) as much as any 10 year old kid can be in love or have a crush.
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Well, I am back again with further ruminations about Jojen paste, and I really thought out the Jojen representing Christ-like goodness and sacrificing himself for the sake of mankind, through feeding Bran from his being.

I decided that Martin would not put two Christ-figures side by side, Bran and Jojen, and since Bran is nailed married to a tree, Bran trumps Jojen in my mind. One Christ-like figure sacrificing himself for mankind is enough for any fantasy series - and Bran is it!

So Bran the god-in-training did not eat Jojen paste, for all the many reasons I bandied about earlier. A god would not eat a friend. [Although Cronus ate his own children - but that's another myth . . . ]

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Yeah, I was wondering about it, Jojen keeps talking about the day he will die, he won´t fight it, he know when it´s going to happen. So I guess the guest right doesn´t apply to sacrifices...

He also says he will die at his home - Greywater Watch - I believe.
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He also says he will die at his home - Greywater Watch - I believe.

RAGNAROK: Could you give me the book and page number? It is not that I do not believe you, but I think the argument is valid and will end the Jojen paste debacle once and for all - for we know greendreams don't lie! [Although depending on how it is worded, Jojen could die symbolically "at home" with the old gods in the roots of trees.

Thanks a bunch!

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Well, I am back again with further ruminations about Jojen paste, and I really thought out the Jojen representing Christ-like goodness and sacrificing himself for the sake of mankind, through feeding Bran from his being.

I decided that Martin would not put two Christ-figures side by side, Bran and Jojen, and since Bran is nailed married to a tree, Bran trumps Jojen in my mind. One Christ-like figure sacrificing himself for mankind is enough for any fantasy series - and Bran is it!

So Bran the god-in-training did not eat Jojen paste, for all the many reasons I bandied about earlier. A god would not eat a friend. [Although Cronus ate his own children - but that's another myth . . . ]

I don't see Bran as "sacrificing himself." Bran is a kid who wanted a life of adventure. He wanted to be a warrior. In some respects he has a romanticized world-view, not unlike Sansa but different inasmuch as they are fitting into Westerosi gender roles (boys are fighter and girls become ladies who bear children). Bran's injuries prevented him from reaching his goal but Blood Raven is offering him a way to "not walk but fly." Becoming the voice of the "Old Gods" and warging into other people and into animals is Bran's way of siezing power for himself and becoming the important person he always wanted to become.
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Could you give me the book and page number? It is not that I do not believe you, but I think the argument is valid and will end the Jojen paste debacle once and for all - for we know greendreams don't lie! [Although depending on how it is worded, Jojen could die symbolically "at home" with the old gods in the roots of trees.

Jojen never says that. Meera says something which can be interpreted that way in Dance - namely that Jojen wants to go home. Then she mentions that he will not even fight his fate because the greendreams do not lie. This has been read by some people as a "when he arrives home, he dies, but he wants to go anyways" but it could equally mean "if he tries to go home, he will die on the journey, but he doesn't care" or even "he would like to go home where it's safe, but he won't try to fight his fate that awaits him here".

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RAGNAROK: Could you give me the book and page number? It is not that I do not believe you, but I think the argument is valid and will end the Jojen paste debacle once and for all - for we know greendreams don't lie! [Although depending on how it is worded, Jojen could die symbolically "at home" with the old gods in the roots of trees.

Thanks a bunch!

hang on - researching..... i know it's there. Try ADWD Bran III

He wants to go home to Greywater Watch. Meera implies while speaking with Bran that Jojen has had a greendream of his fate when he goes to Greywater Watch, and that the outcome is not good.

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hang on - researching..... i know it's there. Try ADWD Bran III

He wants to go home to Greywater Watch. Meera implies while speaking with Bran that Jojen has had a greendream of his fate when he goes to Greywater Watch, and that the outcome is not good.

"He wants to go home," Meera told Bran. "He will not even try and fight his fate. He says the greendreams do not lie." This passage leads me to believe that jojen won't fight his destiny. he has to go home to die. or else he would stay in the cave with bran.
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Jojen never says that. Meera says something which can be interpreted that way in Dance - namely that Jojen wants to go home. Then she mentions that he will not even fight his fate because the greendreams do not lie. This has been read by some people as a "when he arrives home, he dies, but he wants to go anyways" but it could equally mean "if he tries to go home, he will die on the journey, but he doesn't care" or even "he would like to go home where it's safe, but he won't try to fight his fate that awaits him here".

i see your point, and I agree that it is as solid as my theory. It could go either way. But something makes me believe that the Reeds may take Jon to see Howland before Jojen dies. and that's probably to Greywater Watch - where Jon will learn of his heritage.
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I don't see Bran as "sacrificing himself." Bran is a kid who wanted a life of adventure. He wanted to be a warrior. In some respects he has a romanticized world-view, not unlike Sansa but different inasmuch as they are fitting into Westerosi gender roles (boys are fighter and girls become ladies who bear children). Bran's injuries prevented him from reaching his goal but Blood Raven is offering him a way to "not walk but fly." Becoming the voice of the "Old Gods" and warging into other people and into animals is Bran's way of siezing power for himself and becoming the important person he always wanted to become.

:bowdown: :bowdown: BASTARD OF THE WHITE KNIFE: Oh, I agree. I was just bandying about ideas because I wanted to find something concrete to refute Jojen paste, since I am in the middle of a re-read of AGoT Direwolves, Dragon Eggs, Mormont's Raven, and Cats, we have been really intensely analyzing the role of the wolves and the Stark children, as well as the role of the old gods and how they are acting as guides, guardians with an albeit limited means - BR cannot prevent Bran's fall - he can only warn him through the wolf and through the cold Bran feels. In the world of the old gods, there seems to be some element of free will, for Bran makes his own choice to climb a broken tower, and the old gods love the irony - Bran breaks just like the tower he climbs [i credit Little Wing with that gem!] Jamie loses the hand that slew Aerys' and pushed Bran - he even says to Bran, "Take my HAND!" So the old gods oblige him - for they will never gift him death - death is the easy way out. That is why I see the FM as more merciful, for sometimes death is a better, easier fate - if you get my drift.

I absolutely agree with you about Bran living vicariously through his 1000 eyes, 100 skins, and wisdom deep as the roots of trees. It is that "wisdom" part that will be the kicker - for Bran will need to learn to curb his vengeance for the wronged Starks and become more objective in his role married to a tree. Ultimately, that IS where Bran's body will be - and I think some of his warging ability may be curbed in relationship to Summer - but I am just speculating.

As I said, I can always see both sides - and that is why this thread is so interesting! :blushing:

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i see your point, and I agree that it is as solid as my theory. It could go either way. But something makes me believe that the Reeds may take Jon to see Howland before Jojen dies. and that's probably to Greywater Watch - where Jon will learn of his heritage.

:bowdown: :bowdown: RAGNAROK: Yes - as FEATHER CRYSTAL SAID about Martin leading us down a path - and then it is not realized. The wording is so carefully articulated that it can have several different meanigs or interpretations.

Now you may think I am a crazy Martin fan, but when I want reliable information I go back to my LC Mormont quotes. He is on point no matter what he says - so I believe all his words are significant and important because he is one RELIABLE body of information.

The Old gods punish violations of hospitality, so I do not think Jojen will be served for this reason alone - although there have been many good arguments to the contrary. But the Old Bear was all about observing guest and host rights - and all he knows of the CotF is true as well. So I am sticking with no Jojen paste. At least today and for this post. I'll probably change my mind again! :blushing: :dunno:

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Nah, no need to change your mind Evita, the guest right argument is on your side ;)

... the role of the old gods and how they are acting as guides, guardians with an albeit limited means - BR cannot prevent Bran's fall - he can only warn him through the wolf and through the cold Bran feels

What I had in mind when reading about Bran being warned by Summer and his own "gut feeling" just before he was about to start his climb on that fateful day, was that the 3EC as an independent entity was trying to warn him... but Bran made up his own mind - even the 3EC is not all-powerful, it guides, influences but it cannot make the choices for the protagonist, free will is a bitch! So, no one influenced Bran to climb, it was his own decision (the same goes for Jaime and what he did - it was his own choice) and I think the 3EC just played along with what happened (Bran becoming "broken" like his favourite tower) and used the opportunity that manifested itself and just went along and opened Bran's third eye during his comatose state. It just improvised.

About both Bran and Jojen having Christ-like properties: it's not so far fetched, Martin likes to "sprinkle" mythologies over many a character, everyone gets a share :D but I wouldn't want Jojen to become paste, nor Bran to be sacrificed. As I said before, I think Bran will walk that precarious edge between what's right and what's not, he already is. We may even see a darker Bran for a while... but Bran is a sweet boy who will remember his fathers words about honor and duty and do right by him. Whatever he does, it will be something unexpected, involving Hodor and Summer (a hunch, don't ask...) and the Reeds, alive and well! A girl can hope :unsure:

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Nah, no need to change your mind Evita, the guest right argument is on your side ;)

What I had in mind when reading about Bran being warned by Summer and his own "gut feeling" just before he was about to start his climb on that fateful day, was that the 3EC as an independent entity was trying to warn him... but Bran made up his own mind - even the 3EC is not all-powerful, it guides, influences but it cannot make the choices for the protagonist, free will is a bitch! So, no one influenced Bran to climb, it was his own decision (the same goes for Jaime and what he did - it was his own choice) and I think the 3EC just played along with what happened (Bran becoming "broken" like his favourite tower) and used the opportunity that manifested itself and just went along and opened Bran's third eye during his comatose state. It just improvised.

About both Bran and Jojen having Christ-like properties: it's not so far fetched, Martin likes to "sprinkle" mythologies over many a character, everyone gets a share :D but I wouldn't want Jojen to become paste, nor Bran to be sacrificed. As I said before, I think Bran will walk that precarious edge between what's right and what's not, he already is. We may even see a darker Bran for a while... but Bran is a sweet boy who will remember his fathers words about honor and duty and do right by him. Whatever he does, it will be something unexpected, involving Hodor and Summer (a hunch, don't ask...) and the Reeds, alive and well! A girl can hope :unsure:

:bowdown: :bowdown: LITTLE WING: I love this - and I hope I know where you are going - maybe - and I am a girl who likes to hope as well. But dare I say I hope that Bran has his "as yet" unrequited love returned? :blushing:

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I'm going to have to re-read some, but I recall Bran's observation that Meera had become increasingly upset over time. It also seems to me that he would note her absence. Remember that Bran is in love with Meera (or at least has a crush on her) as much as any 10 year old kid can be in love or have a crush.

Yes he will note her absence (not that she has necessarily left), as he will note Jojen's absence, they're not expecting to be able to hide it from Bran forever.

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I am not a believer in the Jojen paste theory. It's appeal comes from the shock factor, but I believe it's just one of those things that GRRM wants us to wonder about until the next book comes out.

Bran is already a greenseer. He doesn't need to eat Jojen in order to be a greenseer. The paste was made of weirwood seeds, which is red, just like the leaves and sap are red.

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i havent gone back and read the last chapter in a while, but does the text say the paste tastes like blood when he first eats it? or that it looked like blood?

we know he definitely tasted blood when he witnessed the sacrifice, but couldn't that be unrelated to the eating of the paste since he did that long before he saw the vision?

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i havent gone back and read the last chapter in a while, but does the text say the paste tastes like blood when he first eats it? or that it looked like blood?

we know he definitely tasted blood when he witnessed the sacrifice, but couldn't that be unrelated to the eating of the paste since he did that long before he saw the vision?

"the red veins were only wierwood sap, HE SUPPOSED, but in the torchlight they looked remarkably like blood. He dipped the spoon into the paste.....He ate. It had a bitter taste, though not so bitter as acorn paste. The first spoonful was the hardest to get down. he almost retched it right back up. The second tasted better. The third was almost sweet. The rest he spooned up eagerly. Why had he thought that it was bitter? it tasted of honey, of new-fallen snow, of pepper and cinnamon and the last kiss his mother ever gave him."
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I wonder at that Martin and whether he knows in advance what conclusions his fans will draw from those little mysteries he plants in his prose? Then I wonder what little enigmas he will pepper WoW with? He seems to dole out Bran POV’s sparingly – and then what he says in those POV’s seems weighted with meaning and symbolism and providence. That is why Bran’s POV’s are some of my favorites – and I cannot understand people who find them a snoozefest! [No, that’s not fair. I can usually see both sides of every argument – and I CAN see how some people may find his POV’s slow moving compared to those POV’s filled with action, espionage, and vengeance!] From AGoT, I fell in love with Bran’s mystical side – and Martin still evokes my interest when he writes from Bran’s POV.

The Jojen paste conclusion is well-presented – and if Martin planned it to be a blind, then he is genius – but I think he is anyway, so either way Jojen ends up, Martin has laid the groundwork very well for more than just one scenario.

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