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Jojen Reed's fate? (ADWD Spoilers)


starkloyalist

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Interesting, I thought he was dead by the time Bran was eating the paste so he may have already done it.

I think they have sacrificed Bran to the CoTF, knowing much more than they have led on to Bran:

The secrets of the old gods,” said Jojen Reed. Food and fire and rest had helped restore him

after the ordeals of their journey, but he seemed sadder now, sullen, with a weary, haunted look about

the eyes. “Truths the First Men knew, forgotten now in Winterfell … but not in the wet wild. We live

closer to the green in our bogs and crannogs, and we remember. Earth and water, soil and stone, oaks

and elms and willows, they were here before us all and will still remain when we are gone.”

So will you,” said Meera. That made Bran sad. What if I don’t want to remain when you are

gone? he almost asked, but he swallowed the words unspoken. He was almost a man grown, and he did

not want Meera to think he was some weepy babe. “Maybe you could be greenseers too,” he said

instead.

“No, Bran.” Now Meera sounded sad. “It is given to a few to drink of that green fountain whilst

still in mortal flesh, to hear the whisperings of the leaves and see as the trees see, as the gods see,” said

Jojen. “Most are not so blessed. The gods gave me only greendreams. My task was to get you here. My

part in this is done.”

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I don't know if anyone has already brought this up but I came across this historical tidbit and couldn't help but see Jojen and Meera in it. Seeing as how GRRM is fond of English history perhaps this offers some clues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_children_of_Woolpit

Quickly summed it's a story from medieval England of two children with green skin that claim to have come from an underground world. While that's of course not Jojen and Meera's story, GRRM doesn't do 1-1 translations and could have served as inspiration for the greenseer plotline.

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It's difficult to explain that he had to eat his friend for the greater good and they're trying to avoid doing it for as long as possible or when he has a better understanding of what is at play, rather than telling him now and having him not trust them and refusing to continue training.

Bran doesn't see Meera after the paste.

I thought Bran saw Meera crying after that. Or am I remembering wrong?

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Jojen is not dead. Meera told Bran that he wanted to go home that he wasn't even going to fight his fate because the green dreams never lie.

Jojen wouldn't want to go home if he knew he was going to die in the cave. He would just except it. Jojen is alive

That same logic can be used to prove Jojen is dead.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I brought this up a long time ago, and I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw something sinister happening here. Of course I was joking when I first brought it up...and now you all have gone and freaked me out.

Bran's story is certainly one of the darker and more interesting portions of the novel in the later books it would seem, now that the the "light magic" within the books is starting to surface more and more.

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Dear Lord...

I just had a Golden Child with Eddie Murphy flash back. The blood-soaked oatmeal! Gah!

Funnily enough, Charles "Tywin" Dance plays the antagonist.

I am not sure I can get with this theory. Jojen salsa...What do they tell Howland if he appears? This is how the Starks repay him. His son dies?

I think he was just brooding on his visions of his death. As far as tasting blood. Bran has done that alot through Summer. Maybe with the paste his sensory/memories were heightened? Flashes of things?

I'm not knocking the theory, I think I have to let it marinate a bit.

Edit: I really should pick a better word than marinate. LOL!

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  • 1 month later...

I completely missed it. Partly because I generally skim over Bran's chapter but now having re-read it, whoa. The first time I knew something was up with Jojen and I was quite sure something bad had happened to him but I didn't put Jojen + bloody paste together. It's actually quite brilliant and poetic.

He's most definitely dead. If not dead then dying at the very least and partly turned to paste. Nothing else makes sense. How can people read through this many books in asoaif and still be so naive? I guess people are still waiting for the chosen one to come and save the day.

Also, red herrings are like Robb, Renly and Azor Ahai (big, bold and hard to miss) not subtle imagery like this.

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You make a good point. Maybe the biggest strike against Jojen as sacrifice (unless they only used some blood of him, like Melisandre did with Edric Storm) is that Bran's POV stops mid-ADWD. If Jojen died, one would expect to see a realisation and reaction from Bran and probably a confrontation with Meera as well. Unless Bran was far ahead of the rest timewise, his next chapter should be quite a bit later than his last chapter in ADWD, which would reduce the reveal to one in flashback - seems unlikely.

Then again, chronology is hard to follow with Martin sometimes and Bran is so detached from the other POV's that is hard to get a feeling of where he is in the story. Both him and Arya may be well ahead of the rest, and so his first TWOW appearance could theoretically follow right upon Bran 3 from ADWD even though he was not in the entire second half of that book.

Does Jojen specifically need to die for JojenPaste? Can't they be leeching him like Melisandre leeched Edric?

well, as a former chef, this isn't quite right. You use the bones, some organs, etc. to make the base, strain it, and then stew the meat.

However, this theory isn't about Jojen stew, it's about a weirwood paste that specifically contains his blood, and blood is one thing that is never used for stew.

I like all of these approaches!

I too think it's the blood of Jojen streaked into a weir wood paste. I imagine it like those soft serve ice creams with "ribbons" of flavor, clearly different from the substance it is in.

It makes more sense to me that Jojen's blood is being used that his flesh and meaty parts (if he has any after the night of starvation they had just gone through). Draining Jojen of blood is likely to last longer, and we don't know how much of the veiny- paste Bran needs to eat to come into his full potential, so maybe it's a process of bleeding Jojen like one would milk a cow - I know, a terrible analogy.

I also find Bran's description of the taste of the paste rather compelling. If you've ever sucked the blood from a quick cut in your finger, it tastes sharp and bitter at first, but you get used it pretty quickly. I agree this is a grim prospect, it not at all out of line with the story GRRM is writing. I psonally believe that at some point Ban will warg into Jojen when he leaves the cave. I take this to be Jojen's death, rather than a literal sacrifice. W know that prophecies in this series normally require a twist, and I see this as probable. I feel .ike Bran's warging of Hodor is just practice for a crueler, more taboo. This would be a greater and more twisted sacrifice on Jojen's part. And I am one of those who won't ever like the non-Arya Starks unless they turn out to be ancient-grey-magic-wielding-frights-of -the -north!

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 4 weeks later...

I haven't read every reply on this topic but has anyone mentioned that Bran sees a "white-haired woman" step forward with the sickle when he sees the sacrifice and earlier in the chapter the singer who gives Bran the bowl with the paste is the "white-haired one that Meera had named Snowylocks"?

Theres just too many hints and coincidences for there to not be something to this theory.

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Varamyr Sixskins in the prologue says "I ate his heart and drank his blood, and still he haunts me." Talking about his skinchaning master Haggon. It's a reach to draw a line between Varamyr/Haggon and Bran/Jojen, but the similarities are there.

Both Varamyr and Bran are more powerful than their 'teachers', and Varamyr seems to believe that eating the flesh and blood of Haggon made him more powerful so I imagine the same would apply to Bran/Jojen.

A farther out there theory is that Bran will eventually Warg Jojen and take over his body completely. Which though it is a weakened body, is still better than a crippled one.

I have also long thought that Bran will warg into Jojen (he has been practicing with Hodor - an easy target), but in order for it to work with Jojen, Jojen will have to sacrifice his consciousness and free will (knowing that little bit of him will always be present understanding that he has sacrificed himself). Warging into Jojen will allow Bran to become mobile again as well as keeping his connection to the Weirnet - and will make him a more important force in upcoming events. In my mind, giving yourself up to be a vehicle for another and having to constantly live with the knowledge that you have done so is a far greater sacrifice than allowing yourself to be killed (even if you believe it is for the greater good). Also this is how Jojen makes it home before he actually dies.

I don't buy the CotF as participating in sacrifice or cannibalism - those are activities that humans brought to Westeros. The CotF = natural world and living in harmony with the natural world (not over populating, etc.) - and the Weirwood trees as the gods = nature is the ultimate 'god' - all these other religions are false constructs for humans to manipulate other people, understand the natural world without scientific explanation, etc. Also remember that the CotF banded together with the First Men to defeat the Others in the original long winter 8-5k years ago. They, too, are threatened by the Others.

BTW, long time reader, first time poster - but this is a topic that has fascinated me for a long time.

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  • 1 month later...

He's most definitely dead. If not dead then dying at the very least and partly turned to paste. Nothing else makes sense. How can people read through this many books in asoaif and still be so naive? I guess people are still waiting for the chosen one to come and save the day.

It is not at all certain that Jojen is dead. It is not even certain that he will die. His "fate" may be something else entirely. His "part in this" may be done but there is no evidence he's dead or will soon die. Remember, prophesy (and dream/visions) is like a mule. The red substance in the weirwood paste could be plain ole' weirwood sap. But what is weirwood sap? Ice and Fire? Blood and bone? Blood of the old dead?

Another scene lends credence. The person killed next to the heart tree in Bran's "trip" whose blood bran tasted could have been an ancestor - you view history from the trees after all - and Bran has a strong connection with his ancestor in death through the trees. (Or simply, blood travels into roots? I know, too literal.)

I think there is more for the Reeds (and Jon Snow, IMO) to do before they die.

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