Jojen Reed's fate? (ADWD Spoilers)

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

George should confirm if meera and jojen will appear in the winds. Cause I'm not convinced of the cannibal paste. We already have the insinuation of the frey pie. I think another cannibal insinuation is too much and unlike george for this situation. Especially since weirwoods are eerily similar to flesh and blood. Or bone and blood.

[The Unburnt Hound]

I foresee a human sacrifice to please the Old Gods and maybe Jojen will be that sacrifice.

[Black Wolf Smith]

I just don't buy this theory. I don't have any proof one way or the other, It just doesn't seems like the CoTF to me.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

The singers who sing the song of earth. They don't seem very bloodthirsty.

[Catacombs]

I just don't buy this theory. I don't have any proof one way or the other, It just doesn't seems like the CoTF to me.

When it comes to the Reeds it seems that we have three options:

1. The Reeds could be dead (I doubt that).
   
   
2. The Reeds could still in the caves exploring tunnels (possible).
   
   
3. The Reeds could have left to head home--above the surface or below (possible).
   

I don't buy the paste theory. It strikes me as way too predictable. OTOH there is much talk in the text of the Reeds exploring the tunnels. I think the tunnels are a more likely reason to explain their absence than their murder at the hands of the CoTF.

In Westeros there seems to be a lot of tunnels underground. There are tunnels under the Wall, under Winterfell and under the CoTF cave. Many other underground passageways are mentioned at many other locations as well. The CoTF seem to be very comfortable in the tunnels. The idea that they are connected does not seem far fetch and there is a network of connected tunnels in some wilding legends. Perhaps, the Reeds know of these old stories as well.

Meera and Jojen have been exploring these tunnels. They could just be on a ranging when Bran returns. Or they could have left.

Leaf would know if there are underground passages. It would be a way for the Reeds to travel South. And then there is the open question of Benjen Stark. A ranging through the tunnels might explain why he has not been seen is such a long time.

I think Jojen wants to go home and that a trip through the tunnels might seem safer than a return trip on the surface. I think that is why they explore them so much, but who knows other than GRRM at this point.

Until the next book all we have is speculation. Perhaps the next Dunk and Egg story will provide some more fuel for that pastime...

[ab aeterno]

This gets me back to my Bran losing time theory. Think about all of Bran's chapters once he reaches Bloodraven. Approximately three months go by, and how much has really happened? His chapters end halfway through the book. After his visions through the weirwood Meera and Jojen are gone.

Essentially, Meera and Jojen may have attempted to try to make their way home, because they have not seen Bran for possibly weeks, months, maybe a year, who knows?

I'm beginning to think that this scenario is more and more likely. Not sold on it yet, but in terms of a active explanation for their disappearance, it is probably more likely than Jojen Paste. Personally though, I think Jojen paste would be a very interesting way for the story to go, even if it would be somewhat predicable. I don't rule it out though.

[Efilnikufesin]

I'm beginning to think that this scenario is more and more likely. Not sold on it yet, but in terms of a active explanation for their disappearance, it is probably more likely than Jojen Paste. Personally though, I think Jojen paste would be a very interesting way for the story to go, even if it would be somewhat predicable. I don't rule it out though.

Don't rule it out either myself, kind of liked it in the first place because it stuck a chord with me that Bran and company's dealing with the Children and Bloodraven just seemed off in some way I couldn't grasp. Part of what makes me think of this theory are a couple of stories from Celtic and Welsh mythology which I think GRRM has pillaged some of the story happening in the North from. If interested here they are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Voyage_of_Bran (which I think the quick story we get of Brandon the Shipwright is a reference to.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herla (which seems to relate to Bran's journey a bit more than heading across the sea.)

[ab aeterno]

Don't rule it out either myself, kind of liked it in the first place because it stuck a chord with me that Bran and company's dealing with the Children and Bloodraven just seemed off in some way I couldn't grasp. Part of what makes me think of this theory are a couple of stories from Celtic and Welsh mythology which I think GRRM has pillaged some of the story happening in the North from. If interested here they are:

http://en.wikipedia...._Voyage_of_Bran (which I think the quick story we get of Brandon the Shipwright is a reference to.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herla (which seems to relate to Bran's journey a bit more than heading across the sea.)

Interesting reads, thanks!

[Efilnikufesin]

Interesting reads, thanks!

No problem :)

[Shadoom]

I just finished a reread of A Game of Thrones, and a key thing I've noticed is that the Stark dire wolves seem to be the equivalent to the Targaryen dragons. Dire wolves are Ice and the dragons are Fire.

Going by that assumption, if Dany is the leader of Fire (leading the dragons, and with some connection to the fire priests), then one of the Starks must be the leader of Ice (leading the dire wolves, and with some connection to the Others).

It can't be Rob, Rickon is too young, Sansa shows no signs of doing anything interesting, Arya drove her wolf away and busy becoming as assassin.

Therefore, the leader of Ice must be Bran.

So where does this leave Jojen?

I'd see him as the Ice equivalent of Mirri Maz Duur, a less powerful magic user who helps Bran discover his own powers. If the parallels continue, then he will be sacrificed to make Bran more powerful - presumably as a blood-offering to the Old Gods. Since the Green singers probably are the Old Gods, it would make sense for him to have been killed to make the paste. On the other hand, it could turn out to be some completely different ritual in a later book. Either way, considering the parallels that already exist, I expect that Jojen will die to make Bran's magic more powerful.

Related to all this, R + L = J would be a union of Ice and Fire. Jon's death could mean the failure of any chance for harmony between the elements, or his resurrection could be an important step in ending the conflict once and for all. I doubt that one person (the Last Hero) could have broken the Others, more likely he made an agreement with the Other's leaders (CotF?), and the War of the Dawn was just clearing them out of areas that they'd already agreed to give up (considering how every human vs Other/wight fight has gone, I don't think they could have been beaten by human armies). Someone who is descended from both Ice and Fire would have the best chance of making to an agreement that brings peace to both sides.

Sorry for rambling so much... My point is that the series is A Song of Ice an and Fire: Winter and summer, Starks and Targaryens, dire wolves and dragons; Bran and Daenerys. Dany sacrificed a magic-using human to gain the most important part of her power. If the parallels continue, Bran will have to do the same thing, and Jojen is the only human magic user than Bran has access to.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

I think we should see his death then. Maybe we will in the trees. When bran is greenseeing maybe he will see he ate jojen. Cause the insinuation is stuid he should outright be killed like miri if that's the case. Cause messing with our heads is just more sugar on a pile of sugar ontop. If you get what I'm saying. It is a constant cycle of mysteries and symbols

[Ciazio]

snip

Have you ever read the Heresy Threads? Give them a look, is full of theories about the connection between Starks and White Walkers.

Anyway, I stil think that the Stark leader is going to be Benjen, and Bran.. well, Bran is just going to watch: greenseeing is a double sided coin and he shouldn't trust the CoTF...

[Shadoom]

I think it's more likely that the leader will be someone who was a PoV from the first book. Maybe Benjen will become LC of the Nights Watch or lord of Winterfell, but I don't see him being central to the Ice/Fire conflict.

And thanks for pointing out the Heresy threads, they're very interesting.

[The Silence]

Something has to happen to make Bran escape those caves. He can't end up as part tree for the next couple of books. Then we won't get our surviving Starks reunion (assuming there will be any left at the end). Seems unsatisfying that Bran will never have even a chance to see his siblings again.

[TheeMikeHoncho]

I foresee a human sacrifice to please the Old Gods and maybe Jojen will be that sacrifice.

Theon has literally been praying to the old gods for this role.

[Efilnikufesin]

Here's a quote to think on for the losing time theory.

First three paragraphs of Bran's first full chapter within the Children's cave:

The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife. A pale sun rose and set and

rose again. Red leaves whispered in the wind. Dark clouds filled the skies and turned to storms.

Lightning flashed and thunder rumbled, and dead men with black hands and bright blue eyes shuffled

round a cleft in the hillside but could not enter. Under the hill, the broken boy sat upon a weirwood

throne, listening to whispers in the dark as ravens walked up and down his arms.

“You will never walk again,” the three-eyed crow had promised, “but you will fly.” Sometimes

the sound of song would drift up from someplace far below. The children of the forest, Old Nan would

have called the singers, but those who sing the song of earth was their own name for themselves, in the

True Tongue that no human man could speak. The ravens could speak it, though. Their small black eyes

were full of secrets, and they would caw at him and peck his skin when they heard the songs.

The moon was fat and full. Stars wheeled across a black sky. Rain fell and froze, and tree limbs

snapped from the weight of the ice. Bran and Meera made up names for those who sang the song of

earth: Ash and Leaf and Scales, Black Knife and Snowylocks and Coals. Their true names were too long

for human tongues, said Leaf. Only she could speak the Common Tongue, so what the others thought of

their new names Bran never learned.

Three paragraphs in and the moon has gone from a cresent to full.

Have some more that will relate to Jojen, just bringing it out slowly. Really think Jojen and Meera have left Bran by the end of his last chapter

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Could the story of grendel's children be a foreshadowing of bran being in the cave. Or perhaps even the so called jojen paste

[Dragonguard]

You and me both.

I agree. Definitely I find it unlikely it will happen off-camera. It may be that the only part he has left to play is his death, but even that would have on-camera value given Bran and Meera's attachment to him. And it may extend beyond that. He is absolutely sure his green dreams are never wrong, but he's misinterpreted them more often than he's actually gotten them right, and since we aren't privy to what his death dream actually entailed, I give it even odds Jojen completely flubbed the interpretation.

Thanks! :D

Just like Melisandre - 'the fire (or dream) never lies but my interpretation was wrong' rough paraphrase but the gist is there...

[Ther Thapphireth]

Didn't the Florents always have tension with the Tyrells because they believed they were more closely related to the King's of the Reach (The Gardeners) during the Conquest? If this were true, it is still has a link to King's Blood no matter how small.

Damn I was just thinking this and was going to post along these lines and then I saw your post. Well played. :thumbsup:

[squnchyTHEconchy]

Have you ever read the Heresy Threads? Give them a look, is full of theories about the connection between Starks and White Walkers.

Anyway, I stil think that the Stark leader is going to be Benjen, and Bran.. well, Bran is just going to watch: greenseeing is a double sided coin and he shouldn't trust the CoTF...

could you possibly provide a link to the heresy discussing the relation between starks and others please?