Theon Greyjoy discussion continued

[The Marquis de Leech]

Trying to keep the interesting discussion going in a manner that is a bit less vicious...

There are several things to consider, if Theon misses a kill shot, Bran is dead. If Theon misses and hits Bran, Bran may be dead. Just ask Alebelly what kind of marksman Theon is. Theon overrates his ability with a bow, but he makes the shot for his own personal reasons. That is why Robb is angry with him.

There are two things to consider. Firstly, that Theon is objectively a very good archer, but secondly, that there was no other realistic way out of the situation. Yes, firing in the vicinity of Bran was dangerous, but there was no safe alternative: Robb charging the Wilding would have led to Bran's death, and Robb killing the direwolf as per the Wilding's instructions would have got them all ultimately killed as well. Theon saved the day, and Robb is wrong to lash out.

I also think the whole "Theon saving Bran was just selfishness" line is a bit logically flawed. The assertion that everything Theon does is selfish becomes literally meaningless, since every time a positive action of Theon's is brought up, it is twisted to make it negative. Basically, if Theon hadn't shot the Wilding, people would be saying that that was a selfish act as well. Theon can't win.

[Stubby]

Trying to keep the interesting discussion going in a manner that is a bit less vicious...

[MOD]

Thread OK as long as this sage advice is remembered.

First sign of personal attacks and suspensions will follow.

[/MOD]

[iamthedave]

I also think the whole "Theon saving Bran was just selfishness" line is a bit logically flawed. The assertion that everything Theon does is selfish becomes literally meaningless, since every time a positive action of Theon's is brought up, it is twisted to make it negative. Basically, if Theon hadn't shot the Wilding, people would be saying that that was a selfish act as well. Theon can't win.

In and of itself it's semi-valid, the issue is that it's ONLY applied to Theon. If you want to approach the characters from that angle that's fine, but you must view every character with the same eyes for it to be fair.

Doing so makes almost every character in the series look bad with the exception of the male Stark characters, Barristan, Brienne, arguably Stannis and Dany.

This argument is never, for example, brought up in relation to Tyrion, for whom it is absolutely applicable. Even in the very beginning when Tyrion is being nice to Jon and Bran, he is doing it because he 'has a fondness for cripples and bastards and broken things' BECAUSE THEY ARE LIKE HIM.

[Dolorous J]

To Iamdave who was arguing that stealing Winterfell was a brave and heroic move, not even Theon himself believes that nonsense.

Qoute from The Turncloak chapter:

Holly: " If you have no smile for me , tell me how you captured Winterfell. Abel will put it in a song , and you will live forever."

Theon: " As a betrayer , as a turncloak".

Holly: " Why not Theon the Clever ? It was a daring feat , the way we heard it. How many men did you have ? A Hundred ? Fifty ?"

Theon: " It was madness."

Holly: " Gloroious madness. Stannis has five thousand , they say , but Abel claims ten times as many still could not breach these walls. So how did YOU get in , m'lord ? Did you have some secret way ?"

"I had ropes , Theon thought. I had grapnels . I had darkness on my side , and surprise. The castle but was lightly held , and I took them unawares"

There you have it , right from the horse's mouth. It was not heroic or brave.

Reek , it rhymes with losing streak. Yet another Theon apologist shot down :smoking:

[The Marquis de Leech]

There you have it , right from the horse's mouth. It was not heroic or brave.

Reek , it rhymes with losing streak. Yet another Theon apologist shot down :smoking:

You're quoting Theon at a time when he was in the pit of despair, with some major self-esteem issues. He's not in a good state of mind, and is trying to reject everything about himself.

I think Theon's capture of Winterfell was a masterstroke myself: the major problem was that he was then foolish enough to try and hold it. As Asha points out, had he razed the place, and taken Bran and Rickon back to the Islands, he would have won the war in a stroke.

[Whatever]

To Iamdave who was arguing that stealing Winterfell was a brave and heroic move, not even Theon himself believes that nonsense.

So, using ropes and attcking at night makes you less brave. Was Davos "less brave" when he smuggled onions in the middle of the night? of course... he should have come by day trying to be seen by as many ship as possible and screaming out loud "hey tyrell! here i come!".

The word i'd use is "more cunning" or, better "way less stupid"

Anyway, i don't care about how brave theon was and looks like neither do you....

Reek , it rhymes with losing streak. Yet another Theon apologist shot down :smoking:

that phrase sounds like you don't care at all about the topic and all you're trying to do is outsmarting people who have a different opinion

@mod: i've not idea what kind of "personal attacks" made you close the topic because i stopped posting at page 7 (out of 11) and i missed the last pages. But the above is not meant a personal attack :) If it looks like it, just tell me so i can edit/won't write it again or just delete the post.

[Sivin]

You're quoting Theon at a time when he was in the pit of despair, with some major self-esteem issues. He's not in a good state of mind, and is trying to reject everything about himself.

I think Theon's capture of Winterfell was a masterstroke myself: the major problem was that he was then foolish enough to try and hold it. As Asha points out, had he razed the place, and taken Bran and Rickon back to the Islands, he would have won the war in a stroke.

I have to agree with you here. As far as the fact that Theon was not in a good state of mind, and I wonder (I don't have ACoK on me) if he might have been able to get the rest of his men to him after he took the castle... It's been ages since I read it (I'm rereading 'Thrones' right now), but when he sent the bulk of his forces as a distraction (was it the Dreadfort?) for the Winterfell garrison, was there no way to get them back to him in Winterfell?

Ok, what I'm asking here is, anyone with a copy of ACoK on their hands (or a good memory) were Theon's men attacking Torrhen's Square or The Dreadfort?

[oneeye]

I missed the Theon original discussion but I think he's a monster and had it coming. Having said that that Bolton bastard is a much bigger monster.

Victarion isn't mister nice guy either.

I almost feel bad for the Greyjoy's though, they all had a rough ride in Dance.

The monkey's throwing feces on Victarions ship was kind of hilarious though.

[Tony Rigatoni]

Theon is a very grey character so this can go either way. Personally, I like the guy he seems to be evolving into. His old self (pre-Dreadfort) was all about carnal pleasures, fame, and a long-held grudge against the Starks. However, I have doubts that Theon would still make a good leader.

For example, he is cunning, as his capture of Winterfell shows, but he only thinks one move ahead, and doesn't weight out the consequences. Did he really think he could hold Winterfell with 30 men when his closest allies are three days away? Asha never considered taking Winterfell because she thinks of the whole picture.

Also, when Theon shot Bran's captor, I think Robb was angry because he probably could have parleyed with the guy to free Bran. If the guy killed Bran, he would be dead, but if Robb pardoned him as lord of Winterfell, and promised to let them leave freely, the deserter might have freed Bran. Theon never even considered this, and just shoots him.

He acts out of passion and rage, and never with his head. Perhaps this will change now that he's an unsullied but that remains to be seen.

[iamthedave]

To Iamdave who was arguing that stealing Winterfell was a brave and heroic move, not even Theon himself believes that nonsense.

Qoute from The Turncloak chapter:

Holly: " If you have no smile for me , tell me how you captured Winterfell. Abel will put it in a song , and you will live forever."

Theon: " As a betrayer , as a turncloak".

Holly: " Why not Theon the Clever ? It was a daring feat , the way we heard it. How many men did you have ? A Hundred ? Fifty ?"

Theon: " It was madness."

Holly: " Gloroious madness. Stannis has five thousand , they say , but Abel claims ten times as many still could not breach these walls. So how did YOU get in , m'lord ? Did you have some secret way ?"

"I had ropes , Theon thought. I had grapnels . I had darkness on my side , and surprise. The castle but was lightly held , and I took them unawares"

There you have it , right from the horse's mouth. It was not heroic or brave.

Reek , it rhymes with losing streak. Yet another Theon apologist shot down :smoking:

You completely missed the two posts I made where I laid out the different ways that the term can be applied, didn't you?

Likewise, you missed Asha laying out very clearly to Theon how he could have won the war in a stroke. Take Winterfell, take Bran and Rickon hostage, leave. Game over.

Try again, please, and stop trolling. It's dull.

[LordBloodraven]

I have to agree with you here. As far as the fact that Theon was not in a good state of mind, and I wonder (I don't have ACoK on me) if he might have been able to get the rest of his men to him after he took the castle... It's been ages since I read it (I'm rereading 'Thrones' right now), but when he sent the bulk of his forces as a distraction (was it the Dreadfort?) for the Winterfell garrison, was there no way to get them back to him in Winterfell?

Ok, what I'm asking here is, anyone with a copy of ACoK on their hands (or a good memory) were Theon's men attacking Torrhen's Square or The Dreadfort?

Actually Theon told the Cleftjaw to besiege Torrhen's Square knowing that the garrison in Winterfell led by Ser Rodrik would come to their relief. When Ser Rodrik left for TS with the bulk of the garrison, Theon captured Winterfell using surprise and night. while the Cleftjaw lifted the siege. When Ser Rodrik came back with the Cerwyns and the Tallharts, Theon realized that he was in deep shit and that's how things turned bad for him, with Ramsay/Reek. Winterfell was then razed and Torrhen's Square taken by Dagmer Cleftjaw

[Sivin]

Actually Theon told the Cleftjaw to besiege Torrhen's Square knowing that the garrison in Winterfell led by Ser Rodrik would come to their relief. When Ser Rodrik left for TS with the bulk of the garrison, Theon captured Winterfell using surprise and night. while the Cleftjaw lifted the siege. When Ser Rodrik came back with the Cerwyns and the Tallharts, Theon realized that he was in deep shit and that's how things turned bad for him, with Ramsay/Reek. Winterfell was then razed and Torrhen's Square taken by Dagmer Cleftjaw

Ok, never mind. For some reason, I had it in my head that Theon and his men had landed near The Dreadfort (on the other side of the continent), and I had a brilliant strategic maneuver to get Dagmeer and his men back to Winterfell with Theon. Oh well...

[Tony Rigatoni]

Wow never knew Theon would be such a hot topic. How bout you guys do a pro's and con's list? It's not the best solution but it might make things less personal. For example:

Pros:

Good archer

fought bravely in Whispering Woods

Captured Winterfell with 30 men

regrets killing Miller's kids

regrets betraying Robb

and most of his more despicable actions were provoked by his father and Ramsey posing as Reek.

Cons:

Sleeps with a lot of women and doesn't care about them

pompous toward others who he thinks are below them (such as Jon)

headstrong and heedless

killed innocent people (Mikken)

killed children (Millers' kids)

Any others I missed?

[iamthedave]

Actually Theon told the Cleftjaw to besiege Torrhen's Square knowing that the garrison in Winterfell led by Ser Rodrik would come to their relief. When Ser Rodrik left for TS with the bulk of the garrison, Theon captured Winterfell using surprise and night. while the Cleftjaw lifted the siege. When Ser Rodrik came back with the Cerwyns and the Tallharts, Theon realized that he was in deep shit and that's how things turned bad for him, with Ramsay/Reek. Winterfell was then razed and Torrhen's Square taken by Dagmer Cleftjaw

Oh yes, I'd forgotten about that little maneuver.

Indeed, if his plan had been Dagmer siege, capture kids, run off to Moat Cailin while Dagmer recedes to the ocean, we'd probably be writing about how cunning and clever he was instead of debating the issue at all. Fundamentally it was a very sound strategy, ruined by his insistence on trying to be prince of winterfell.

[The Girl in Winterfell]

My feelings for Theon have evolved very much during the books. I've been indifferent to him while he was in Winterfell, I liked him when he was fighting with Robb, I felt sorry for him during his meetings on the Islands.

I wanted to kill him when he took Winterfell and whe he came back my heart was broken, I couldn't believe I was hurting so much for that horrible human being.

I almost like the guy he's turning into but honestly if that is what it takes to make you a better person, I think there wasn't really much to work with.

[Lord Damian]

Theon made the best call he could. Robb was somewhat Haughty toward Theon although it is clear Theon since has let known that he wanted to belong as brothers to him and to his family. Theon was kinda overlooked by the Starks to their own detriment.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

When I think of that scene with Bran and the wildling, I imagine how I'd feel if Bran were my son and Theon did what he did. Part of me would be immensely grateful to him for saving my son's life, but another big part of me would be screaming, "Holy shit! You could have KILLED HIM. Why didn't you let me try another way?" I think Robb's response, while high handed, was also completely normal under the circumstances. If that had been Theon's son or brother, I wonder if he would have taken such a risk. Maybe he would have, but I definitely wouldn't even try no matter how good an archer I was, and I'd be angry at someone who did, even if he succeeded. Theon doesn't seem to get the emotion behind Robb's reaction, because I think before he was Reek, Theon had a poor understanding of the feelings of others.

However, based on the last conversation, I think it's pretty fruitless to debate this topic. People have different conceptions of the character based on their personal proclivities. We can't even agree on a definition of "hero." We can't agree on what Theon's motivations were. We can't agree if his incredible urge to survive is noble or selfish. If we can have a productive discussion of plot points, great. But it seems like something about this character incites really strong emotional responses from readers, and maybe it's better to just let people enjoy the character how they enjoy him. I don't know that you can convince someone that an act they consider foolish is brave, or an act they consider selfish is really heroic, or vice versa.

[Sand Flower in the Snow]

I am not a big fan of Theon's character (never have been a big fan of this type of personality) but I wonder something. Wouldn't the result have been the same regardless of Theon firing the shot and failing or not firing?

If he hadn't tried the shot, would Bran not have possibly died anyway? I guess I am thinking that in a more wilder environment, sometimes a person has to take a chance and just hope and pray it turns out alright rather than try nothing at all.

[MtnLion]

At no point does Theon ever place an individuals safety or wellbeing ahead of his own. Theon is self-centered, and motivated from that standpoint. Even now, he fears being within Ramsay's grasp once again. He clearly prefers death (Stannis) to more flaying (Ramsay).

[David Selig]

Robb was a jerk in this scene, Theon's shot was the only option they had to get out of this with all of them alive. Robb should've been thankful instead of lashing out.