Theon Greyjoy discussion continued

[CrypticWeirwood]

WTF when did the SCREENPLAY become canon? Give me a break.

Normally, I'd agree with you, but here I believe you're wrong due to exceptional circumstances.

Yes, the screenplay is indeed canon. It's its own canon one might argue, but you cannot dispute that Martin is the executive producer of the TV series and that he has creative input on the screenplays. He even wrote one of them.

He's even said that he intentionally changed a few things for the series because of negative reader feedback, like Cat telling Jon it should who fell not Bran and Sansa betraying Ned to Cersei. Both those were things that made readers never forgive Cat and Sansa respectively, so he removed them from the series. Other things he added in, like the more obvious sexual relationship between Renly and Loras, which he wanted people to realize was going on. Still other things are D&D's own doing, such as Ned signalling Yoren about Arya at Baelor; that was something that was so good he said he'd wished he'd thought of it for the book.

This isn't something being adapted form a book in isolation by third parties. Martin is himself very much involved. It gives him a chance to have a bit of a do-over, too. Notice he's aged up the kids, which he would have done in the books had he only known he wouldn't be able to make the five-year gap work.

I think what's going to happen is that there will be two different canons, each internally self-consistent. When there are things from one that don't contradict something in another, that doesn't mean it's ruled out.

Yes, this is very different from how most movie adaptations work, because Martin is himself involved to an unusual degree.

[lady crackhead]

I think what's going to happen is that there will be two different canons, each internally self-consistent. When there are things from one that don't contradict something in another, that doesn't mean it's ruled out.

Yes, this is very different from how most movie adaptations work, because Martin is himself involved to an unusual degree.

He may have say in it, but making the show canon is goign to come back to bite people on the ass because you dont know how far afield its going to deviate, and its already changed characters in a broad way that goes against who the characters are in the book. I dont buy it. Ill look at the one show he wrote & if it wasnt tampered with , then Id use that as canon maybe, but not the whole she-bang. Jesus, if that;s true than Robb is a little shithead for at least one thing he said to Theon. Also: Theon is impotent & only pretends to bang whores.

[Hear Me Roar!]

How much input does GRRM really have in the show ... in the Google interview he said he has 0 veto power and is basically not given any power..

[Marix]

But the show doesn't always follow GRM's instructions. I believe he told them that one of the Dothraki (Rakharo?) would have a larger role in the future, but they decided to kill him off in the series anyway.

[Watcher on the Walls]

Just to come at this from a fresh angel…………..

While Lord Commander, Jon Snow said something like compromise was when both sides were unhappy. If we can’t come to a compromise position after all that has been said about Theon (a fictional character) how can one expect to ever get peace in the Middle East or between any two widely divergent groups?

In the name of peace what would you concede/compromise on? I believe on this possibly most contentious of threads, that this set of posters is up to the challenge.

Posters who are overwhelmingly pro-Theon, what would you concede to have the con-Theon posters agree that he is worth redeeming?

Con-Theon posters, what major Theon accusation would need to be conceded before you would agree that he is worth redeeming?

[Hear Me Roar!]

But the show doesn't always follow GRM's instructions. I believe he told them that one of the Dothraki (Rakharo?) would have a larger role in the future, but they decided to kill him off in the series anyway.

Mago.

[lady crackhead]

But the show doesn't always follow GRM's instructions. I believe he told them that one of the Dothraki (Rakharo?) would have a larger role in the future, but they decided to kill him off in the series anyway.

Mago , or, Ugly Val KilmerTM. Yeh, they shouldnt have killed him, he was pretty funny.

[LordBloodraven]

In addition to this, Balon was aiming to capture Winterfell. He wanted to capture the other castles & then in time see them shrink and turn from Winterfell, which would make it ready for the plucking. So it wasnt ever NOT on Balon's To Do list. Theon just thought that he would be able to speed up the process & he was banking on compliance from inside the castle and help from the outside, when they realized what he had done.

Where was it stated than Balon intended to capture Winterfell? I'm eager to know.

Like he was a superhero, Theon read his father's thoughts and captured Winterfell, what a hero he is!! He was banking on compliance from inside and help from outside. But didn't he just disobey order by capturing Winterfell? He started a solo enterprise but was expecting others to help him have his glory and rule as Prince of Winterfell. That say a lot about Theon: vainglorious, arrogant lordling whose destiny is heroic and to whom others must crawl and help him achieve his destiny even when he anticipated their plans.

Ok, from what I read, the Winterfell attack was to please his father, to be recognized as the Iron Islands heir and to be more glorious than Asha who assieged Deepwood Motte for 1 month while Theon just needed a night and 20 dudes to seize Winterfell. Trying to hold Winterfell was dumb as dumbass could be.

I don't know if you're trying to defend Theon or to mock him. How you interpret Theon's mission to his father is quite funny? Robb told him to send a letter, he sent it and that's it, mission accomplished. Theon did what he had to do and owed nothing to Robb. Now, he could go reaving Robb's coasts and killing the villagers. And he could capture Winterfell (Robb's seat) and rule as Prince, that's fine. Actually he should stick to what he was told if I follow your logic: reave the coast and take thralls and salt wives, but no he wasn't going to do that while Asha was capturing Deepwood Motte. Theon had free will, was conscious of what he was doing, don't deny him that.

Theon's thoughts in ADWD contradict the way you state his character and his intentions. Theon recognize that he failed Robb, his only friend (I know, I didn't forget he was 10 and Robb 5, the only friend he could have since he was Ned's hostage, a cold man that Ned). Theon regrets what he did; when he was captured we have no information that his father or his uncles tried to ransom him, they just assumed that he was dead. But now, he's despised by all for a father that didn't give a damn about him, How sad...

[lady crackhead]

Where was it stated than Balon intended to capture Winterfell? I'm eager to know.

He mentions that all the lords went south with Robb and all thats left are green boys & cravens:

"They will yield or fall, one by one. Winterfell may defy us for a year, but what of it?" ~ 3rd Theon POV, CANON.

But didn't he just disobey order by capturing Winterfell?

You seem stuck on this. Do you only respond to authoritarian types? I freely admit Im anti-authoritarian. Like most ironborn, like Balon, like Dagmer, like Theon...who has his own reasons for being rebellious against authority.

EDIT:

Theon had free will, was conscious of what he was doing, don't deny him that.

I have no idea what youre on about, since youre intent on misconstruing everything I have said ad nauseum.

Theon recognize that he failed Robb, his only friend

Theon regrets what happened to them both. Theon never went into any of his endeavors thinking to hurt Robb. It is natural after what has happened to them both to think along Theon's lines of regret.

..

we have no information that his father or his uncles tried to ransom him, they just assumed that he was dead. But now, he's despised by all for a father that didn't give a damn about him, How sad.

Your sadness has touched me. Here's a hanky, go blow. Nobody knows where Theon is, not even the guests who are neighbors knew Ramsay had Theon (eg, Whoresbane). Since WF was torched, its only naturalfor Theon's family to assume that Theon is dead.

[MtnLion]

There is nothing that Theon can do to redeem himself, after killing two children and their mother for his vanity. That does not mean that his twisted perspective of Westeros is not interesting to read. He conveniently forgets his vows tro Robb, and later to his father, to further his self-interests. It does not seem to be an entirely fictional perspective, afterall. :crying:

[LordBloodraven]

He mentions that all the lords went south with Robb and all thats left are green boys & cravens:

"They will yield or fall, one by one. Winterfell may defy us for a year, but what of it?" ~ 3rd Theon POV, CANON.

Ok, thanks for the reference. I think it implied attacking Moat Cailin, to close the way north. But it's not like Moat Cailin cannot be taken from the north or from the east, moreover if there's an army coming south. And there are still the bog devils.

You seem stuck on this. Do you only respond to authoritarian types? I freely admitIm anti-authoritarian. Like most ironborn, like Balon, like Dagmer, like Theon...who has his own reasons for being rebellious against authority.

Well that's straight from the books. I don't see how you could disobey orders and ask for reinforcements, that doesn't make sense... that's it. And Theon disobeying orders had nothing to do with being ironborn, but with his vanity (I'm not stuck on that either) and his personal issues.

Balon is not anti-authoritarian, he just doesn't know how to get rid of authority. He started a rebellion, which cost him two sons, had to bend the knee after. It's the same thing with the Ironborn, you have to remind them that the Old Way cannot persist, stubborn people indeed.