Theon Greyjoy discussion continued

[MtnLion]

Robb was a jerk in this scene, Theon's shot was the only option they had to get out of this with all of them alive. Robb should've been thankful instead of lashing out.

That we will never know, because we never know what Robb had in mind. There are still very many options.

[David Selig]

OK, then name one option that was as likely to work as what Theon did.

[LordBloodraven]

That we will never know, because we never know what Robb had in mind. There are still very many options.

I think that in that scene, Theon took a bold move that could have went very bad. But it was succesfull and I'm ok with that. I don't interpret Robb thrashing Theon as a proof of Theon's egocentrism but simply as an elder brother who was merely scared for his brother's life (he didn't pay attention to Bran, which led him to the wildlings). He was pretty relieved of Theon's archery skills but at the same time for taking such risks.

[dragginstoned]

I agree. Gelded theon deserves justice for his redemption. the kind of justice only a man like Stannis can give him

cut his stupid smiling head off before he burns

[MtnLion]

OK, then name one option that was as likely to work as what Theon did.

Robb offering the man a pardon if he released Bran. No one needs to die to resolve the problem.

[The Girl in Winterfell]

I honestly think that Robb being a jerk once doesn't really sway Theon's case either way. It's such a small episode compared to the rest of his story.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Robb offering the man a pardon if he released Bran. No one needs to die to resolve the problem.

Robb would never offer such a pardon: the hostage-taker was a deserter from the Night's Watch. Even if he did offer it, the guy would never accept it: handing over Bran would render him vulnerable should Robb "change his mind".

Theon's actions were the only way out.

[Dolorous J]

You're quoting Theon at a time when he was in the pit of despair, with some major self-esteem issues. He's not in a good state of mind, and is trying to reject everything about himself.

I think Theon's capture of Winterfell was a masterstroke myself: the major problem was that he was then foolish enough to try and hold it. As Asha points out, had he razed the place, and taken Bran and Rickon back to the Islands, he would have won the war in a stroke.

But that's exactly the point isn't it ?? He DIDN"T raze Winterfell . Why??

Because he's a self-centered moron who was never concerned with "winning the war" , all he could think about was , " I am going to be the new Lord of Winterfell." Everything Theon does is in his self-interest only. It's what makes him such an unlikeable douche bag , so we are back at the root of the argument.

He's right , his plan was madness , and he betrayed everyone he cared about in order to try it. Theon SHOULD be in a pit of despair. He's a pathetic human being , and now he realizes it. Why can't you ?

[Cydal]

Theon is a very grey character so this can go either way. Personally, I like the guy he seems to be evolving into. His old self (pre-Dreadfort) was all about carnal pleasures, fame, and a long-held grudge against the Starks. However, I have doubts that Theon would still make a good leader.

For example, he is cunning, as his capture of Winterfell shows, but he only thinks one move ahead, and doesn't weight out the consequences. Did he really think he could hold Winterfell with 30 men when his closest allies are three days away? Asha never considered taking Winterfell because she thinks of the whole picture.

Also, when Theon shot Bran's captor, I think Robb was angry because he probably could have parleyed with the guy to free Bran. If the guy killed Bran, he would be dead, but if Robb pardoned him as lord of Winterfell, and promised to let them leave freely, the deserter might have freed Bran. Theon never even considered this, and just shoots him.

He acts out of passion and rage, and never with his head. Perhaps this will change now that he's an unsullied but that remains to be seen.

How dare you call him an unsullied??? Unsullieds are brave and loyal :D :D

[Miriamele]

Robb was a jerk in this scene, Theon's shot was the only option they had to get out of this with all of them alive. Robb should've been thankful instead of lashing out.

People often las out when they are nervous. I don't think he really meant to be rude to Theon, it was just the heat of the moment. And he was also a teenager.

That said Theon's was probably the only solution. Wasn't the man a deserter? Ned said they are the most dangerous because they know their life is forfeit if they are caught. Even if Robb offerred him a pardon there's know guarantee he would've believed him. I know Starks are known for their honour but executing deserters is really a very strong tradition in the North.

[Dolorous J]

So lets review:

If a friend yells at you after you fire an arrow within inches of his little brothers head , it gives you just cause to betray him , steal all his property , and slaughter his household ??

Got it . Brilliant rationale , Theon fans. :thumbsup:

[MtnLion]

Robb would never offer such a pardon: the hostage-taker was a deserter from the Night's Watch. Even if he did offer it, the guy would never accept it: handing over Bran would render him vulnerable should Robb "change his mind".

Theon's actions were the only way out.

The Wildling was just that. Not a Night's Watch deserter. And, you and I cannot say what Robb would have done. I merely point out that there were very many options, and that no one needed to die to resolve the situation. Theon's move threatened Bran's life more than many other options. Just as Edmure's move to impede Lannister forces cost Robb a devestating victory over them. I am not sure that the direwolves wouldn't have sorted things out on their own.

[Sivin]

Watch this scene from the 1 minute mark. :)

If my little sister was being held captive by a man with a knife, and I had a bow and any confidence at all in my abilities, I wouldn't hesitate to take the shot. I much prefer the man who takes action.

[Whatever]

So lets review:

If a friend yells at you after you fire an arrow within inches of his little brothers head , it gives you just cause to betray him , steal all his property , and slaughter his household ??

Got it . Brilliant rationale , Theon fans. :thumbsup:

you know, i can't understand if you simply don't read what people write or if yuo re just trolling.

Nobody here said that Robb arguing at theon was a justification for him to take winterfell, yet you're saying so.

And, by the way, Theon didn't steal anything and it was Ramsay who killed all the people in winterfell

[David Selig]

People often las out when they are nervous. I don't think he really meant to be rude to Theon, it was just the heat of the moment. And he was also a teenager.

Agreed. My point was that we as readers should see that Robb was wrong in this case and give Theon some credit for what he did.

So lets review:

If a friend yells at you after you fire an arrow within inches of his little brothers head , it gives you just cause to betray him , steal all his property , and slaughter his household ??

Got it . Brilliant rationale , Theon fans. :thumbsup:

Strawman. Nobody has said that in this thread.

[iamthedave]

or if yuo re just trolling.

Got it in two. Dolorous isn't attempting to contribute to the discussion, and I think that's been obvious for some time.

[Dolorous J]

you know, i can't understand if you simply don't read what people write or if yuo re just trolling.

Nobody here said that Robb arguing at theon was a justification for him to take winterfell, yet you're saying so.

And, by the way, Theon didn't steal anything and it was Ramsay who killed all the people in winterfell

Oh please , that is exactly what is being implied . If not , then why even bring it up ? You bring it up in your weak attempts to try and justify Theon's actions . What you are attempting to say is , " Robb and the Starks treated Theon like crap anyways! They didn't deserve any loyalty "

Winterfell belonged to Robb, therefore Theon stole it.

He killed lots of Robb's household in the invasion . Mikken was killed because of Theon. I suggest you re-read and formulate some new excuses for the scum-bag, Theon.

[Miriamele]

The Wildling was just that. Not a Night's Watch deserter. And, you and I cannot say what Robb would have done. I merely point out that there were very many options, and that no one needed to die to resolve the situation. Theon's move threatened Bran's life more than many other options. Just as Edmure's move to impede Lannister forces cost Robb a devestating victory over them. I am not sure that the direwolves wouldn't have sorted things out on their own.

I just checked it. The man was a deserter of the Night's Watch.

Robb glanced over at where Stiv lay sprawled in the stream, his ragged black cloak moving fitfully as the rushing waters tugged at it. "Deserters from the Night's Watch," he said grimly. "They must have been fools, to come so close to Winterfell."

...

"I broke no oaths. Stiv and Wallen flew down off the Wall, not me. The black crows got no place for women."

(Stiv was the man Theon killed. )

[iamthedave]

However, based on the last conversation, I think it's pretty fruitless to debate this topic. People have different conceptions of the character based on their personal proclivities. We can't even agree on a definition of "hero." We can't agree on what Theon's motivations were. We can't agree if his incredible urge to survive is noble or selfish. If we can have a productive discussion of plot points, great. But it seems like something about this character incites really strong emotional responses from readers, and maybe it's better to just let people enjoy the character how they enjoy him. I don't know that you can convince someone that an act they consider foolish is brave, or an act they consider selfish is really heroic, or vice versa.

Yeah but fruitless topics abound concerning these books :D

I think with Theon what clouds the water is his betrayal of the Starks and the demonstrably brutal treatment he's received combined with the fact that he is genuinely sorry for what he did.

So many people still want to see him dead, think he deserves this, want to see him suffer even MORE for some unearthly reason, while seemingly missing that of all the 'redemptive' sort of characters, he's pretty much the only one who actually regrets his actions. Jaime isn't sorry for what he did, he just resolves not to do that sort of stuff again (which is fine by me)

Tyrion isn't sorry for anything despite us all knowing he really ought to be.

Theon brings up the entire issue of whether you even believe a man can be redeemed, because he's suffered as much as a living man can, or close to it, for his crimes AND he's penitent for them. Yet that still isn't enough in some people's books. So if you do forgive him after all that, and see someone else essentially laughing at what Theon's been through or even worse condemning him for 'allowing' himself to be reduced to what he is (like he had a choice), it becomes quite the hot button.

[Tony Rigatoni]

At no point does Theon ever place an individuals safety or wellbeing ahead of his own. Theon is self-centered, and motivated from that standpoint. Even now, he fears being within Ramsay's grasp once again. He clearly prefers death (Stannis) to more flaying (Ramsay).

Yet he risks this to rescue Jenye Poole. Interesting...