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Theon Greyjoy discussion continued


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"What if you had missed the shot?" Robb said. "what if you'd only wounded him? What if you had made his hand jump, or hit Bran instead? For all you knew, the man might have been wearing a breastplate, all you could see was the back of his cloak. What would have happened to my brother then? Did you ever think of that, Greyjoy?"
It seems to me that Robb had very good points. Theon had no real target, just a cloak in the wind. There were also guardsmen all around, the whole scene is going to play out in a different manner, unless Theon recklessly interferes. But Theon got his
"A dead enemy is a thing of beauty."
in. That sentiment betrays that he cares not one bit for Bran when he takes the shot. He takes no interest in Bran afterwards, either. Even though Robb suggests
"I ought to chain you up in the yard and let Bran take a few practice shots at you."
but Robb and everyone present knows that Theon would be completely safe as long as Bran aimed at him.
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So many people still want to see him dead, think he deserves this, want to see him suffer even MORE for some unearthly reason, while seemingly missing that of all the 'redemptive' sort of characters, he's pretty much the only one who actually regrets his actions.

Ironically, as you'd probably have to class me as a dyed in the wool Theon hater, I agree with you. Theon's character has suffered beyond what I would consider "necessary" and has undergone a traumatic transformation, and he has the opportunity to redeem himself. I wouldn't say he is redeemed yet. It remains to be seen. Suffering does not automatically ennoble a person or change his essential nature. My point being, we don't really know what Theon's essential nature is. He is just learning it now.

Tyrion isn't sorry for anything despite us all knowing he really ought to be.

This is a topic for another thread, but I do think Tyrion suffers enormous regret. He's very conflicted. This isn't really a fair comparison.

Theon brings up the entire issue of whether you even believe a man can be redeemed, because he's suffered as much as a living man can, or close to it, for his crimes AND he's penitent for them. Yet that still isn't enough in some people's books. So if you do forgive him after all that, and see someone else essentially laughing at what Theon's been through or even worse condemning him for 'allowing' himself to be reduced to what he is (like he had a choice), it becomes quite the hot button.

I never said anything like the above, yet still was attacked for my basic position, which is that up until the moment he jumped off the wall with Jeyne, he was a pathetic creature with no really sterling qualities. I don't consider personal survival at any cost a virtue, but that's a matter of opinion where I accept there will be differences. I also think saving Jeyne has an angle for him and is not a wholly selfless act. I suspend judgment of him until we see how he is in the next book. He might be on a redemption arc, and I hope he is, but it's not guaranteed. This is Martin we're talking about. Also, remember that just because you and I feel compassion for Theon due to the depths of his suffering, the Northmen probably aren't going to give a shit, and will likely be the types who laugh and think he should have gotten worse. The Ironborn are not particularly forgiving of physical weakness either. These things will definitely impede his progress.

Yet he risks this to rescue Jenye Poole. Interesting...

He was far more at risk if he remained with Ramsay, who was going to cut off his lips the first chance he got. Saving Jeyne gave Theon some currency to take with him. Delivering Jeyne is going to undermine the North's support for the Boltons and nullify their claim on Winterfell. This might just keep him from being killed outright.

ETA: I agree with MtnLion's post above. Robb's points to Theon were 100% valid. However, I think calling Theon an ass and threatening to chain him up for practice were unnecessary. I put it down to sheer nerves. Robb was in a terrible situation mere seconds before and was freaking out. He took it out on Theon. Not cool, but I don't think he would have lashed out at anyone who took that shot. It wasn't because it was Theon who did it.

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I never said anything like the above, yet still was attacked for my basic position, which is that up until the moment he jumped off the wall with Jeyne, he was a pathetic creature with no really sterling qualities. I don't consider personal survival at any cost a virtue, but that's a matter of opinion where I accept there will be differences. I also think saving Jeyne has an angle for him and is not a wholly selfless act. I suspend judgment of him until we see how he is in the next book. He might be on a redemption arc, and I hope he is, but it's not guaranteed. This is Martin we're talking about. Also, remember that just because you and I feel compassion for Theon due to the depths of his suffering, the Northmen probably aren't going to give a shit, and will likely be the types who laugh and think he should have gotten worse. The Ironborn are not particularly forgiving of physical weakness either. These things will definitely impede his progress.

Didn't say you did. But you know how these threads go. There's no mid-point, you're on one side or the other and you'll always be assumed to agree with every little thing said by the other side whether you agree or not.

It's an ugly aspect of these boards but a common one to most internet forums.

Generally, people don't pay enough attention to individual posters to follow their individual stances. They just see 'Theon supporter' or 'Theon hater' and assume they hold with all those opinions. I do my best to avoid that because it just causes discussions to degrade at light speed, as almost always happens in Dany threads once someone brings up the 'sexism' defense.

The other issue is that milder stances like your own, frankly, don't piss off the other camp much so don't warrant as much of a response, while the extreme position seems so unjust that it must be answered. If that makes sense. Problem is the extreme positions don't actually make for good discussions :(

Nobody in the setting is going to care about Theon. But then Ned Stark didn't care much for the suffering of the Night's Watchmen whose head he cut off at the start. It's a grim world in such matters, and brutally unforgiving of criminals of any stripe. You can see extreme punishments for just about everything all over the books. Wasn't Hot Pie sent for the Watch over something really minor?

I've laid out in a different thread that if Theon does sit the Seastone Chair (as I suspect is the intent) he's going to do it because of Aeron, who'll see Theon as his only chance to lawfully get Euron off the seat, and tell his Ironmen to back him on those grounds. Obviously it'll be more complex than that (maybe Theon gets drowned or whatever; I seem to recall he never was), but I think that's the general outline of what's going to happen in the Iron Islands to wrap up the Ironborn plot. Euron is dethroned by Aeron, Asha and Theon, Theon thus ends the Ironborn rebellion, Victarion comes back with or is killed by Dany. I'll be surprised if Victarion survives to be honest. His thing about marrying Dany or kidnapping her and attempting to steal her dragons isn't LIKELY to please her. Especially if she's riding Drogon at the time and he toots at the big black one.

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I think calling Theon an ass and threatening to chain him up for practice were unnecessary.

Knowing Bran's marksmanship with a bow, it added an edge of a jape. Robb knew he had to dress Theon down for his action, as a leader. This is where Robb really begins to mature. But, in truth, I thought that Theon had been an ass when I read the segment. Everyone including Theon was very fortunate that things came out as they did.

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Didn't say you did. But you know how these threads go. There's no mid-point, you're on one side or the other and you'll always be assumed to agree with every little thing said by the other side whether you agree or not.

It's an ugly aspect of these boards but a common one to most internet forums.

Generally, people don't pay enough attention to individual posters to follow their individual stances. They just see 'Theon supporter' or 'Theon hater' and assume they hold with all those opinions. I do my best to avoid that because it just causes discussions to degrade at light speed, as almost always happens in Dany threads once someone brings up the 'sexism' defense.

The other issue is that milder stances like your own, frankly, don't piss off the other camp much so don't warrant as much of a response, while the extreme position seems so unjust that it must be answered. If that makes sense. Problem is the extreme positions don't actually make for good discussions :(

Nobody in the setting is going to care about Theon. But then Ned Stark didn't care much for the suffering of the Night's Watchmen whose head he cut off at the start. It's a grim world in such matters, and brutally unforgiving of criminals of any stripe. You can see extreme punishments for just about everything all over the books. Wasn't Hot Pie sent for the Watch over something really minor?

I've laid out in a different thread that if Theon does sit the Seastone Chair (as I suspect is the intent) he's going to do it because of Aeron, who'll see Theon as his only chance to lawfully get Euron off the seat, and tell his Ironmen to back him on those grounds. Obviously it'll be more complex than that (maybe Theon gets drowned or whatever; I seem to recall he never was), but I think that's the general outline of what's going to happen in the Iron Islands to wrap up the Ironborn plot. Euron is dethroned by Aeron, Asha and Theon, Theon thus ends the Ironborn rebellion, Victarion comes back with or is killed by Dany. I'll be surprised if Victarion survives to be honest. His thing about marrying Dany or kidnapping her and attempting to steal her dragons isn't LIKELY to please her. Especially if she's riding Drogon at the time and he toots at the big black one.

I'm definitely with you here. As I see it, Tyrosh, you've been pretty cool about this. We've said some words, and it's gotten intense at times, but I think that you've (and I hope that I have as well) been respectful. There's nothing wrong with getting passionate if you keep to reason. It's some of the others (not all) that have been trolling.

And Dave, I'm absolutely agreeing with you about Victarion. That guy is doomed. Danny mentioned something about how once a dragon picks a rider, it won't let anyone else touch it. So Victarion's probably going to blow that horn, then try and ride Drogon (because he's the most baddass looking one) and get his ass eaten. Then Danny is suddenly in possession of a fleet.

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Theon's capture of Winterfell was dumb. He achieved nothing. If he had stolen Bran and Rickon and brought them to deepwood then yeah it would have been a masterstroke, but trying to hold winterfell with 30 men was moronic. He wanted to be like the Starks which led him to making decisions that ultimately led to his downfall (even if Ramsay hadn't betrayed him, he still would have been crushed by Ser Rodrik's force.)

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Oh please , that is exactly what is being implied . If not , then why even bring it up ? You bring it up in your weak attempts to try and justify Theon's actions . What you are attempting to say is , " Robb and the Starks treated Theon like crap anyways! They didn't deserve any loyalty "

YOU think we "are attempting" to say this. but since nobody has actually said it yet, keep your implication for youreself. If all you're trying to do is argue without contributing to the topic in a constructive way, please stop posting. It's just pointless.

back on topic: i think i'm just going to copy my last post from the other thread. I'm too lazy to write evrything again ;)

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And Dave, I'm absolutely agreeing with you about Victarion. That guy is doomed. Danny mentioned something about how once a dragon picks a rider, it won't let anyone else touch it. So Victarion's probably going to blow that horn, then try and ride Drogon (because he's the most baddass looking one) and get his ass eaten. Then Danny is suddenly in possession of a fleet.

Even though this is off topic, I want to correct this. A dragon may have multiple riders, but a rider may only have one dragon. I think Daenerys will simply see through Victarion ensuring his doom. (page 670 DwD)No rider ever flew two dragons, though dragons had other riders.

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Knowing Bran's marksmanship with a bow, it added an edge of a jape. Robb knew he had to dress Theon down for his action, as a leader. This is where Robb really begins to mature. But, in truth, I thought that Theon had been an ass when I read the segment. Everyone including Theon was very fortunate that things came out as they did.

I think Theon had been an ass too. However, he did save Bran's life, and Robb was in a very bad situation-- he was being told to kill Grey Wind and Summer, and was hesitating as Bran's hair was being pulled and he was crying, with a knife at his throat. Robb may have been able to negotiate his way out of it, but Theon also did end that conflict in the most expedient way possible. Robb could have said, "Thanks for that, Theon, but honestly? You could have gotten Bran killed, and here's why. Next time, please, let me handle it. I do appreciate your efforts, but it was unwise." That would have been a more... leaderly way to handle it. That said, I think it was nerves that made him lash out. I likely wouldn't have been able to choke out such a diplomatic response after a tense and horrible situation as that. I probably would have said something similar, then felt bad later and apologized.

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If Theon had been a monster, he would have killed everyone at Winterfell, taken the highborn kids hostage, and burned the place to the ground. You know, like Ramsay did. Instead he tried to rule them- like a Stark.

His Greyjoy roots led him to attack the castle in the first place. His Winterfell upbringing led to his downfall by compassion, just like a true Stark.

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YOU think we "are attempting" to say this. but since nobody has actually said it yet, keep your implication for youreself. If all you're trying to do is argue without contributing to the topic in a constructive way, please stop posting. It's just pointless.

I love how you couldn't dispute the point , by telling us why else you would bring up the Robb incident in defense of Theon , unless it was to imply what I said you were implying. It has no relevance in any other context.

I've contributed more to this topic than you have. You've contributed nothing but pathetic and flawed rationalizations for terrible crimes , and when I call you on it you get upset . rolleyes.gif

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If Theon had been a monster, he would have killed everyone at Winterfell, taken the highborn kids hostage, and burned the place to the ground. You know, like Ramsay did. Instead he tried to rule them- like a Stark.

His Greyjoy roots led him to attack the castle in the first place. His Winterfell upbringing led to his downfall by compassion, just like a true Stark.

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Kingslayer,

You don't think the reason he spared the castle had anything to do with the fact that he wanted to be Lord of WInterfell , do you??

There are selfish motiviations behind all Theon's actions. He's not a monster like Ramsay , simply a Megalomaniac.

Well , WAS , now he's just a broken down coward...

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I'm not a Theon supporter and have never really liked him...even less in the show, but I'll argue these points.

Oh please , that is exactly what is being implied . If not , then why even bring it up ? You bring it up in your weak attempts to try and justify Theon's actions . What you are attempting to say is , " Robb and the Starks treated Theon like crap anyways! They didn't deserve any loyalty "

Theon was a hostage from the time he was a small boy, so NO, the Starks don't deserve any loyalty. Sure, he could have been treated worse, but he was still a hostage.

Winterfell belonged to Robb, therefore Theon stole it.

Theon CONQUERED Winterfell, he didn't steal it. Big difference in war.

He killed lots of Robb's household in the invasion . Mikken was killed because of Theon. I suggest you re-read and formulate some new excuses for the scum-bag, Theon.

Necessary evil. Killing during wartime or an invasion is sometimes needed. Whether done to make the situation safer or to establish discipline or a sure chain of command, it may be necessary.

It is obvious from reading most of the posts that the Theon haters = the Stark lovers. I guess if the Starks are considered the good guys than Theon has to be considered the bad guy if he is against them. I just don't think it's this black and white.

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I'm not a Theon supporter and have never really liked him...even less in the show, but I'll argue these points.

Theon was a hostage from the time he was a small boy, so NO, the Starks don't deserve any loyalty. Sure, he could have been treated worse, but he was still a hostage.

Theon CONQUERED Winterfell, he didn't steal it. Big difference in war.

Necessary evil. Killing during wartime or an invasion is sometimes needed. Whether done to make the situation safer or to establish discipline or a sure chain of command, it may be necessary.

It is obvious from reading most of the posts that the Theon haters = the Stark lovers. I guess if the Starks are considered the good guys than Theon has to be considered the bad guy if he is against them. I just don't think it's this black and white.

Theon himself said he betrayed Robb , his only true friend.

Theon himself said he destroyed the only true home he had.

Theon himself said he is a turncloak .

Did you even read Dance with Dragons?? Or are you going to use the " Theon was just having a bad day when he made those comments" defense like the rest of the Theon supporters ?? lmao.gif

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Theon was a hostage from the time he was a small boy, so NO, the Starks don't deserve any loyalty. Sure, he could have been treated worse, but he was still a hostage.

Yet both he and Robb state that they felt like brothers to each other. Robb sent Theon to Pyke with his full loyalty and trust. Theon betrayed him, and this betrayal is on a personal level. Politics aside, he stabbed his friend in the back to please a father who has nothing but contempt for him and wrote him off. This is so unfair, as Theon is a hostage b/c of Balon's acts of unprovoked aggression, a victim of the dysfunctional culture of the Iron Islands, that cannot imagine any middle ground between starving and reaving. I'm sorry, I know this is a disputed point, but I cannot bring myself to see it any other way.

Necessary evil. Killing during wartime or an invasion is sometimes needed. Whether done to make the situation safer or to establish discipline or a sure chain of command, it may be necessary.

It is obvious from reading most of the posts that the Theon haters = the Stark lovers. I guess if the Starks are considered the good guys than Theon has to be considered the bad guy if he is against them. I just don't think it's this black and white.

I am an unabashed Stark lover, I'm not even going to deny it. However, I don't even think that matters here: Theon's betrayal of Robb was personal. If someone loves and trusts you, and you them, should it matter that your father hated his father? You accepted that trust and then you forsook it. You're a traitor IMO.

The Greyjoys did not have to make war on the Starks. They are always the aggressors and seem aggrieved that their raping and pillaging should be curtailed in any way, which is a pretty ridiculous stance to take IMO. Robb offered peace with them and self-rule if they would support him against the Lannisters and Baratheons. Balon refused and I think will come to rue the day. Asha even stated at the Kingsmoot that there was no way they could hold the North, they simply don't have the manpower to occupy such a large territory. It's foolishness. I find the Greyjoys foolish to a man... Asha is the least foolish, and they won't listen to her b/c she's a woman.

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Theon himself said he betrayed Robb , his only true friend.

Theon himself said he destroyed the only true home he had.

Theon himself said he is a turncloak .

Did you even read Dance with Dragons?? Or are you going to use the " Theon was just having a bad day when he made those comments" defense like the rest of the Theon supporters ?? lmao.gif

As someone else pointed out upthread, but I'm sure you ignored, Theon is thinking these things to himself in a time of despair. Of course Theon thinks of Robb as his brother from time to time and thinks of Winterfell as his home more often than not. These thoughts are the basis for Theon's story. His entire arc is about the conflict between his birth family and his adopted family, with him stuck in the middle trying to find his identity.

He had every intention of helping Robb when he took the message home, but set out to prove himself when his father questioned his loyalty and called him more Stark than Greyjoy. He took Winterfell and performed all the actions after that trying to prove to himself and his family that he was a Greyjoy and not a Stark (who have basically always been at war with each other).

And yes, I read ADwD... did you read the entire book, or just the Stark chapters?

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Asha even stated at the Kingsmoot that there was no way they could hold the North, they simply don't have the manpower to occupy such a large territory. It's foolishness. I find the Greyjoys foolish to a man... Asha is the least foolish, and they won't listen to her b/c she's a woman.

Another point that is really agreeable. Asha seems to be the least stupid of the Ironborn, to my point of view, too. I don't care for her, especially, but she is less disagreeable than any of her relatives. Asha tried to talk sense to Theon, and was rejected by him. He had delluded visions of himself, and made himself a failure by attempting to live up to them.

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I am an unabashed Stark lover, I'm not even going to deny it. However, I don't even think that matters here: Theon's betrayal of Robb was personal. If someone loves and trusts you, and you them, should it matter that your father hated his father? You accepted that trust and then you forsook it. You're a traitor IMO.

The Greyjoys did not have to make war on the Starks. They are always the aggressors and seem aggrieved that their raping and pillaging should be curtailed in any way, which is a pretty ridiculous stance to take IMO. Robb offered peace with them and self-rule if they would support him against the Lannisters and Baratheons. Balon refused and I think will come to rue the day. Asha even stated at the Kingsmoot that there was no way they could hold the North, they simply don't have the manpower to occupy such a large territory. It's foolishness. I find the Greyjoys foolish to a man... Asha is the least foolish, and they won't listen to her b/c she's a woman.

I don't think anyone has an argument with you about the nature of the Greyjoys. Unfortunately, as I stated in my post above, Theon was caught in the middle between his birth family and his adopted family and is still trying to come to terms with the decisions that he's had to make. It's easy to say that he shouldn't have gone against Robb because he thought of him as a brother, but turning against your father, uncles, sister, and entire family is not a simple matter.

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