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Littlefinger and Sansa


Karo Vyrga

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I totally hated Littlefinger before the end of ASOS (nooo, Eddard!!). Then he flung Lysa out the moon door and I was just floored..."Only Cat." Seriously, how can you be any more badass?

Sansa, too. I really grudged against her for taking Joff's side against Arya in #1 and saying things like "I want to marry him and have his babies!" Gag. It seemed like she was putting a girlish crush above the lives of her family, even if she didn't completely see it that way...whatever. But then she actually managed to escape King's Landing without botching up the whole plan, put up with Lysa and sickening little Sweetrobin, and played the part of Alayne pretty convincingly. She's definitely become a lot more cynical, bitter, and cautious become of her whole family's (suspected) deaths, but I do like how she's learning about the world and the "game" very quickly now.

Eh. I have a hard time completely trusting anything Littlefinger tells Sansa. He's the guy who has three different groups of underlings observe each other. What he's not telling Sansa, I think, is probably worth more than what he is telling her. For all we know, she's probably just one of his pawns. I have this nasty feeling that he wants to sleep with her to fulfill his fantasies of Cat. Maybe even declaring her Queen in the North for it. As people said, he does hold Harrenhal, the Vale, massive amounts of money, and almost the North soon enough. I love how he keeps us guessing.

Oh my gosh. The lemon cakes theory and the one about Sansa being Cersei's younger and more beautiful replacement just blew my mind. There's something for me to think about.

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  • 1 month later...

Little Finger is probably the most vague yet powerful character in ASOIAF right now. Whatever little of his childhood we've read till now suggests that he was exceptionally cunning even as a child. And, he is ambitious. He may have loved Catelyn, I don't doubt it for a second because he actually fought a duel to the death with Brandon Stark and lost her. Even after Brandon's death he sent her a letter, which Cat, dutiful and honorable as she is, burned unopened. I think the rejection made him more bitter and vengeful. Remember, LF was the one who initiated it by advising Lysa to poison Jon Arryn and then to blame it on the Lannisters, thus sending Robert to seek Ned's help.

He's infatuated with Sansa and lusts after her. He might as well want her to be his protoge. But as some of the above commentators rightly pointed it out, LF, at the end of the day, loves only LF. Sansa is definitely his pawn. If the need comes, I don't think he will hesitate to make her fly along with Sweetrobin.

Look, in ASOS, LF waited till Joffrey's wedding to smuggle Sansa out of King's Landing. If he had wanted, couldn't he have rescued her before that and especially before her marriage with Tyrion? He waited till that specific moment when Joffrey is poisoned and Tyrion along with Sansa is blamed. He saved her yes, but only after the entire realm falsely believes her to be a murderess and is out hunting for her.

Another thing, what happened at the Red Wedding was known to only the Freys and Lannisters. But in the Red Keep, hardly anything is a secret from Varys and LF. So he must've known about the massacre that was waiting for Catelyn and Robb. Yet, he remained quiet. If he truly loved Cat still, he couldn't have let this happen to her.

At this point, I truly feel that LF deserves a POV chapter of his own. He's one of the most crucial players in the game. I only wonder what are his intentions regarding Dany. Does he feel threatened by her or sees her as another stepping stone?

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As for Sansa, she was materialistic to the core. She still is. The only difference is, she's now not as stupid as she was before.

When Lady was killed, it amazed me to see that she actually settled on blaming Arya for it, quite forgiving Joffrey and Cersei. Yes, she was only a child back then but still. She must've been pretty determined to become a queen, so as to put a psychopath and his scheming mother ahead of her own family. When she went to Cersei and blurted out all of Ned's plan, how selfish she must've been to think that the queen would make her father stop from sending her back to Winterfell. Child or not, your trust and loyalty should lie within your family, not with someone whom you hardly know, especially if that someone has hurted your own kin. Joffrey would've savaged Arya near the Trident if Nymeria wasn't there, Lady was killed by Cersei's order, Jory Cassel and other Winterfell men were killed and her father grievously injured in the hands of Jaime Lannister, how much do you need to see before you realize that a Lannister is not a well-wisher and certainly not your friend?

From her stay in King's Landing, before she escaped, we knew that Sansa was learning to lie and to keep quiet when she needed to be. In the Vale, it helped her further as she donned on Alayne's veil. We know what LF wants from her, but we never really learnt what Sansa wants at this point. I'm still hoping that the Stark and Tully blood in her will keep her straight. And I've a secret wish for her as well, sweet it would be if she learns from LF and then outwits him in the end.

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However, the real change in Sansa, I believe, was initiated by Sandor Clegane. Before meeting Clegane, Sansa always assumed that Knights were and handsome and gallant. Frightened as she was with the Hound, she came to know him and eventually wasn't repulsed by him as she should've been before. In AFFC, when she remembers him, I didn't read anywhere that she was disgusted by him or hated him.

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We know what LF wants from her, but we never really learnt what Sansa wants at this point. I'm still hoping that the Stark and Tully blood in her will keep her straight. And I've a secret wish for her as well, sweet it would be if she learns from LF and then outwits him in the end.

Yeah... Besides being used, Sansa has had no visible role in the story so far, yet she is one of the most important characters. I can't help but think that there is some greatness about her in the future...

Oh, and up until the point where she built that Winterfell castle out of snow, I thought she has completely lost her Starkness. But that scene made me appreciate her a bit more and I think it was there to remind us that Sansa is a wolf deep inside and that sooner or later, she will take control over her fate.

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  • 3 weeks later...

LF is super creepy. I think it's more directed at the thought of never having Cat's affection than an actual attraction to Sansa. He is too smart to let that ruin everything he is building though. Sansa is the heir to Winterfell, if Tyrion is believed to be dead, then she is also heir to Casterly Rock. If she marries Harry the Heir, she will have the Eyrie as well. Riverrun is left to her uncle who was betrayed by those around him and likely to take her side. LF himslef has Harrenhal. Seems like all but the south is won. (And the Iron Islands, but who do they really affect?) I don't think LF would risk someone catching him with Sansa and ruining this awesome position.

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LF is super creepy. I think it's more directed at the thought of never having Cat's affection than an actual attraction to Sansa. He is too smart to let that ruin everything he is building though. Sansa is the heir to Winterfell, if Tyrion is believed to be dead, then she is also heir to Casterly Rock. If she marries Harry the Heir, she will have the Eyrie as well. Riverrun is left to her uncle who was betrayed by those around him and likely to take her side. LF himslef has Harrenhal. Seems like all but the south is won. (And the Iron Islands, but who do they really affect?) I don't think LF would risk someone catching him with Sansa and ruining this awesome position.

She is not the heir to Casterly Rock, the only way she could possibly control it would be as Regent if she had a child with Tyrion, until that child came of age.

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  • 1 year later...

As for Sansa, she was materialistic to the core. She still is. The only difference is, she's now not as stupid as she was before.

When Lady was killed, it amazed me to see that she actually settled on blaming Arya for it, quite forgiving Joffrey and Cersei. Yes, she was only a child back then but still. She must've been pretty determined to become a queen, so as to put a psychopath and his scheming mother ahead of her own family. When she went to Cersei and blurted out all of Ned's plan, how selfish she must've been to think that the queen would make her father stop from sending her back to Winterfell. Child or not, your trust and loyalty should lie within your family, not with someone whom you hardly know, especially if that someone has hurted your own kin.

Sansa's character reflects her upbringing. Specifically Catelyn's influence. I don't understand how Sansa is shallow for blaming Arya but Catelyn is more forgivable for shunning Jon Snow and essentially blaming him for being a living embodiment of Ned's indiscretion. I mean what did he do to her but exist? Nothing and yet somehow readers give Catelyn more sympathy. I mean I understand why Catelyn does it, she can't take her anger out on Ned so she finds the next available acceptable target. Likewise for Sansa who can't take her anger out on Joffrey, so she finds the next available target who just happens to be Arya. This is acceptable behavior in GOFT, hence the need for Pate, the whipping boy.

It's implied that Littlefinger is attracted to Sansa because she reminds him of Catelyn, only prettier. So the resemblance can't merely be physical they probably share common personality traits, which isn't much of a stretch considering they are mother and daughter. Sansa is probably very similiar to what Catelyn and many noble born women, are like before they become mature. Naive, overly fond of their looks, privileges and social status, shallow. And she's only eleven when the books begin, she's not even her own person as of yet, she's still developing. As Littlefinger says she just a "piece" in the Games but that's how everyone starts out so she shouldn't feel bad for it.

Her development is what's fascinating to me and other readers, and I can forgive that she began the series as annoying eleven year old. I mean we do start forming our own beliefs seperate from what our parents taught us at a certain age, but Sansa's and indeed every woman's purpose in life in ASOIAF is to:

1.) Secure a socially advantegous marriage, and put up with your husbands bullshit if need be.

2.) Make lots of children, preferably sons.

So by putting up with Joffrey's BS until she cannot deny any longer that he's a wacko, she's doing

1)what she's been taught to do

2)what is expected of her

3) and what makes the most sense in her situation

Despite how stupid it is in Joffrey and the Lannister's case. She can't risk being openly defiant, it won't gain her anything, and it will make her lose a great deal, what little she has. Magarey does the same thing, even after Sansa strait up tells her that Joffrey is a murdering psycho who isn't to be trusted. Of course the Tyrells had a plan for how to deal with Joffrey, but Magarey is also a pawn in her father's ambition. Magaery wants to be queen, but her father also wants it for her, and Magaery kisses Cersei's ass too, at least until Cersei has her jailed for adultery at which point there was no reason to keep the facade going. She does everything that Sansa did regarding Joffrey and the Lannisters, for the same reasons.

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As far as Sansa and Littlefinger goes I'm up in the air. Based on him saying that SweetRobin dying is inevitable, he's probably slowly poisoning him to speed up the process, and exacerbate Sweet Robin's preexisting ailment. I hope he does get a POV chapter. Nearly everyone else important has one so GRRM would really be holding out on it if he didn't. I would love to see everything from his point of view.

I think it's possible that Lf had sex with Catelyn at some point and because of her marriage and social status she never pursued it further and that this worsened his jealousy at Ned. Not because I believe what Lf says but I wouldn't put it past Catelyn based off of her totally understandable but unfair treatment of Jon Snow. Also by her releasing Jaime to get Sansa and Arya back, when it was more strategic to keep him in their power, and stupid to trust the Lannisters,(even if Jaime keeps his promise, which she had no way of knowing he would do, doesn't mean anyone at the KL will abide by it.) She did that out of understandable concern for the wellbeing of her daughters but still, very stupid.

I don't think LF would have clung to his feelings all these years, especially since whatever Catelyn wouldn't do Lysa was clearly ready and willing to do, unless Catelyn reciprocated in some way at some point in time. I don't think he would've seen her fiance/husband as an impediment if he knew that Catelyn honestly didn't have feelings for him.

LF jealousy makes more sense if there was indeed something between them, something real that social conventions and his/her class got in the way of. That explains a lot of his characters motivations actually, and how he is constantly acting to subvert/control the old order. That takes intelligence and perception of people of the highest order. I doubt he would not "get" that Catelyn didn't feel anything for him at some point. The drunk confusing sex with Lysa/Catelyn notwithstanding. If he was all about ambition, he would have settled for Lysa and made do, even though Lysa is obsessive and homicidal and a bit too chatty about it.

I think Lf's plan is maybe not marrying Sansa, he may be infatuated with her but she isn't Catelyn and he doesn't love her like he did Catelyn just because he barely knows her. It's true that marriages aren't about love in ASOIAF but I think he plans to set her up in a position of power and exert control over her through their shared crimes. He is groming her, both as a political piece and maybe as a sexual companion. The lack of a maidenhead is problematic but it can be explained away by a number of things, like horsebackriding. Still depending on how long arranging the marriage takes Littlefinger has proven that he's patient enough to wait his turn.

I think this plan will backfire though, because Sansa/Alayne will become smart enough to manipulate his sexual attraction/emotional attachment to her and change the power balance of the relationship. He will start with the intention of using Sansa, and will end up being used by her until she decides to move against him for the crimes he committed against her family. He's opening himself up for it, by demanding all these kisses and praising her beauty left and right.

It's only a matter of time before Sansa/Alayne begins to realize that she can use this as leverage to get what she wants from him. Right now it's beyond her and it would be really OOC but the story has foreshadowing that it's headed that way. Remember how Cersei told her to use her sex as a weapon? And then her friend Lady Randa is so nonchalant about sex, it's only a matter of time before Sansa becomes aware of her sexuality and the power that it has over men, particularly LF. LF has already shown that he's willing to risk a lot for her. From:

1)Taking her from KL via Ser Dantos

2)Asking Cersei to marry her, LF took a risk by tipping his hand that way. No one at KL would make a connection between him and Sansa until he did that in the council meeting. That's a loose end although not a very loose one because Cersei is occupied with other problems at the moment besides Sansa Stark's whereabouts. For the future though, she is the one person who could turn Sansa/Alayne irrecocably against LF by revealing his involvement in her father's death.

3) Kissing Sansa/Alayne in front of homicidal jealous Lysa. Although I'm not sure entirely sure he didn't plan that with the intention of making Lysa insanely jealous and being forced to kill her when she outlived her usefulness and started to get too talkative about their past dealings. That seems a little to orchestrated even for him but I don't put it past him.

But those were all big unnecessary risks that I doubt he would take for anyone else except someone that was important to him. He probably forgot himself and got caught up in the moment. Sansa/Alayne knows he is manipulative but she also know there are times when he drops the mask, at least around her, and shows moments of genuine human weakness and that was one of them. She will use that against him at some point in the future I believe.

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Littlefinger is an opportunist. He saw the neglect of Sansa at court and saw how he could use that by providing her with something she would appreciate under the circumstances. As to what true love is to him, who can tell, when his world revolves around control, secrets and ladder-climbing?

I think perhaps he did kiss her to get up Lysa's nose, I wouldn't put it past him at all. It worked beautifully - I was wondering how he was going to put up with Lysa's oversized adoration and demands.

I may be alone in this, but then again, the casting is unbelievably good on the TV show, but I rather like Littlefinger :dunno:

Yes, I do would find the meeting between Littlefinger and Lady Stoneheart momentous!

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  • 2 months later...

This really disgusts me. He is taking advantage of a child that has nobody to protect her and is completely destitute. He has isolated her from the world, given her a new identity and made her totally dependent on him.

Yeah, I agree. I don't hold a grudge either. She was a child that made a stupid mistake because she was a little spoilt. But all the books are about characters that make mistakes, that's what makes them so real imho. Nobody is perfect, and I am hoping they start learning from their mistakes. Sansa should be given the same leeway as everyone else, especially because she was a child that came from such a sheltered life and had such a rosy view of the world. She has now had her rude awakening and understands life a bit better.

Their relationship does kind of remind me of Humbert/Lolita. Creepy, delusional, but at the same time way to interesting. I'm looking forward to seeing how the story unfolds in the following books. My bet is that Sansa will have something to do with LF's demise.

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  • 2 months later...

Littlefinger's attraction to Sansa isn't implied. It's right there on the page -- the last thing he does is give her a really long mouthkiss.

Let's all remember that when Littlefinger says how many women he's loved in his life, he says: ONE. Cat. Which means he does not love Sansa.

If he's telling the truth, that is. Littlefinger is a liar, but I think he was telling the truth at that moment. He's using her. I really doubt that he's going to do anything that would allow her much independence. He can't. Sansa knows too much.

Littlefinger has said many impolitic things to her, and she's learned a few of his secrets. Once she's free of him, she might forget to be terrified & obedient and start hating the dude that kidnapped her, framed her for murder, killed her aunt & creeped on her.

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sansa has been used and abused all the way through the series so she's due some retribution, she's changing and learning and after her treatment has the potential to become totally cold and badass, the lannisters and most notably cersei will be in her sights and it will be awesome reading her getting her revenge on cersei especially either with the help of LF or after coming in to power herself, who knows where that leaves LF but i'd never bet against that man

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  • 3 weeks later...

sansa has been used and abused all the way through the series so she's due some retribution, she's changing and learning and after her treatment has the potential to become totally cold and badass, the lannisters and most notably cersei will be in her sights and it will be awesome reading her getting her revenge on cersei especially either with the help of LF or after coming in to power herself, who knows where that leaves LF but i'd never bet against that man

I agree completely

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i hope they both die sansa is an idiot she pretty much started the war so she could please cersei and they boy who then goes on to beat her and kill her father i mean why sell out your family for your handsome prince who turns out to be an a hole the dumb mofo and little finger is just an a hole the more i read about him the more i hope he gets it in a nasty way he shudnt of saved sansa either

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