Lady Stoneheart (with Spoilers)

[lyvyathan]

None of them were irrational

Because you say so eh? Obviously you have not been following the threads lol. Remember the time she kidnapped Tyrion don't you think she was being a mite bit irrational there?

1. Kidnapping a member of a major house usually causes war (she would remember Lyanna's kidnap which was the catalyst for the last bloody war which led to the slaughter of practically the entire enemy family in King's Landing - which coincidentally by the way, is also where her two lovely daughters +husband are at the moment.)

2. Kidnapping and taking Tyrion to the Vale was the worse possible choice because of the hazadous journey which she fully knew at the time. It would have been safer and faster for her to take him to Riverrun (ie to await the King's Justice). She decided to take Tyrion to see her sister because of a rather short letter her sister sent to her.

3. She had no authority to arrest Tyrion because her husband specifically told her to go back to Winterfell and mobilize 200 troops to man Moat Catlin and to prepare other Northern defences (White Harbor iirc). Not because he knew for certainty that there would be war, but only as a preparatory move. Making small defensive preparatory moves for war- in case you do not realize - "Preparation is not War". The US and its Western European allies have been preparing for war against the Soviet Union since the late 1950s - spending trillions of dollars - and its a war that has not come.

Kidnapping Tyrion - however - started the war. It gave Tywin the casus bellli which led House Lannister to fully mobilize their forces and attack unprepared Tully land etc.. (Remember Ned/Robert's war to free Lyanna? :) ) Meanwhile Stark and Tully forces have now been caught totally unawares by the event and are unprepared for the war.

So instead of going back North to help prepare defenses Catelyn decided to start the war all on her own without bothering to warn Tully/Stark forces. Now that's what I call an ultimate fail.

4. Looking at the evidence, I'd say she's pretty irrational and actually absolutely stupid, even ridiculous. Mayhaps you don't of course. :D

[Errant Bard]

Because you say so eh? Obviously you have not been following the threads lol.

Kid, I've been here since 2006, I have been following more of those threads than I care to remember.

Remember the time she kidnapped Tyrion don't you think she was being a mite bit irrational there?

No. It was a very rational move. It was not done on emotion, it was done following a very sound reasoning, based on what she knew, what the situation was and what she considered were her options.

Considering your objections, I'll just assume you don't know the actual meaning of the word, but mean "hazardous" or "mistaken".

[lyvyathan]

Kid, I've been here since 2006, I have been following more of those threads than I care to remember.

Oo, I touched a raw nerve have I?

Hmm, I didn't realize that you've been around since 2006. Mayhaps you are referring to the year of your name day!!! That explains your line of reasoning. :D

No. It was a very rational move. It was not done on emotion, it was done following a very sound reasoning, based on what she knew, what the situation was and what she considered were her options.

Saying it is "very rational", "based on very sound reasoning" doesn't make it so. You might as well say that Tywin Lannister was a very kind hearted person who was misunderstood, but that doesn't make it so.

What do you call a person who embarks on a hazardous course of actions, knowing the dangers involved and the extreme unlikelihood of success - based upon poor evidence, dismal reasoning, and when practically everyone is telling her so?

Its not as if GRRM leaves us with no clues. He practically hangs neon lights signposting Catelyn's irrational behavior - like this gem which happened after Catelyn's group was nearly wiped out by the mountain clans.

"Lady Stark, I urge you to press on, with all haste," Ser Willis Wode said, his eyes scanning the ridgetops warily... "We drove them off for the moment, but they will not have gone far."

"We must bury the dead, Ser Willis," she said 'These were brave men. I will not leave them to the crows and shadowcats."

(Note: Apparently she did not seem to think that the shadowcats may take a fancy to live flesh.)

"This soil is too stony for digging." Ser Willis said.

"Then we shall gather stones for cairns" (GoT pg 326.)

You might that this "rational thinking" but if that's not being irrational, I don't know what is. And the problem with Catelyn is that this is a recurring behavior. Her next act was to

conspire to help the escape of a key enemy character on the most bizarre and slimmest of hopes - which had a 99% chance of jeopardizing her main heir's kingdom.

Catelyn is many things- a good mother, a gutsy woman, brave, strong, daring, fearless, her hands can even withstand Valayrian Steel, even a bit smart at times too. But she makes the most emotional, irrational, rash, stupid, decisions in the GoT series - and she also seems to be very petty, parochial and stubborn minded person too. The evidence is there for you to see - don't blame me if you don't like it - blame the author instead.

[the judge]

As it was discussed in another topic, Catelyn had every reason to believe Tyrion was guilty for Bran's attempted murder and only arrested him because she was seen at the inn. Her original plan was to hide from him. And she kidnapped him because she was afraid of what Tyrion would tell about her at King's Landing, as nobody was supposed to know she went south.

Many readers reached a consensus on the other topic that if Tyrion had the chance to tell everyone in King's Landing about her it would put her husband and dauthers in a dangerous situation. The Lannisters would raise many questions and that would put Ned's preparation for war at risk.

The decision about going to the Vale instead of Riverrun I dont remember how it was justified. I just think she trusted Lysa too much with that letter...

Anyways, Catelyn's acts were not completely emotional. It is important to note that she had some reason to do it based on the information she had at the time. A terrible mistake she did, yes, but not all her fault.

[Errant Bard]

Oo, I touched a raw nerve have I?

Isn't it normal to call your bullshit when you try to imply I'm misinformed?

You are pathetic.

[lyvyathan]

Isn't it normal to call your bullshit when you try to imply I'm misinformed?

You are pathetic.

How about you try responding like an adult and not like a 6 year old? Rational debate and showing evidence, is surely not too hard for you? I already gave you some very good counter arguments - yet instead of a logical rebuttal, you respond very emotionally like another character in ASOIAF... you know, like Catelyn. :D

The funny thing I've learned about this forum is that the readers who passionately love certain characters share similar traits with them.

You know it was practically impossible to argue sense or logic with Catelyn as Tyrion and LF etc.. found - it seems the same applies to her fan base as well.

[Antonius Pius]

There have been a lot of threads about Catelyn's behaviour/decisions etc. Catelyn seems to draw a lot of haters, but there are also those who defend her actions. A lot of the bad press seems to be due to her behaviour towards Jon, her breakdown after Bran's fall and her abduction of Tyrion.

It's my opinion Lady Stoneheart is only part of the person Catelyn was. I see Catelyn as someone who had Robb's best interests at heart, and did what she could for him. Releasing Jaime was a lapse of judgement, based on desperation. Arresting Tyrion might have turned out differently if it weren't weren't for Lysa's madness (or conspiracy with LF, who knows). Still, it was bound to be a dangerous course, no matter what happened.

[lyvyathan]

As it was discussed in another topic, Catelyn had every reason to believe Tyrion was guilty for Bran's attempted murder and only arrested him because she was seen at the inn. Her original plan was to hide from him. And she kidnapped him because she was afraid of what Tyrion would tell about her at King's Landing, as nobody was supposed to know she went south.

Many readers reached a consensus on the other topic that if Tyrion had the chance to tell everyone in King's Landing about her it would put her husband and dauthers in a dangerous situation. The Lannisters would raise many questions and that would put Ned's preparation for war at risk.The decision about going to the Vale instead of Riverrun I dont remember how it was justified.

The original post was an argument claiming that Catelyn was rational in her thinking. Sincerely believing you are in the right doesn't make it rational though. But I've already addressed that in that thread you mentioned.

Many people go about believing that what they are doing is rational - and may attempt to justify their behavior as such. Gadaffi went to his grave wondering why his people hated him so much. But there is a point whereby a person's judgment may be deemed as irrational. In Catelyn's case, its practically signposted.

You saw she "had every reason to believe Tyrion was guilty" - why do you say that? Did she have compelling evidence to support her claim? All she had was the testimony of Littlefinger- a claim from a man she hasn't seen in over 15 years. What did he say?

1. The dagger was Tyrion's.

2. And he advised her to give it up because it was insufficient evidence to go after Tyrion.

Pure and simple, she lacked evidence to arrest the man - let alone abduct him.

I am not attempting to blame Catelyn for what she did not know. For example, if she did not know that the way to the Vale was highly perilous, being populated by murderous mountain clans - then I would have no reason to blame her judgment for going there. But she did know and still went, when there were safer alternatives, i.e. her father's castle at Riverrun.

I would also have no reason to blame her judgement if there was compelling evidence to suggest that she knew Lysa had the evidence to incriminate Tyrion. But she did not have sufficient evidence to believe so. All she had was only just one letter from a sister whom she did not speak to in 5 years claiming that her husband was murdered by the Lannisters. Even then, how was kidnapping Tyrion going to help? Everyone knew that it was his father Tywin Lannister who was the mastermind of House Lannister - not his despised dwarf son. And if she believed her sister could help - then summon her to Winterfell. Taking Tyrion there was the last thing she should have done due to the perils involved But I've discussed this before in the previous thread you mentioned.

The argument that kidnapping Tyrion would somehow prevent the news spreading to King's Landing - and somehow it would protect her husband and daughters - is ludicrous.

Besides, was it even an argument that Cat was espousing?

1. Kidnapping Tyrion dramatically escalated tension between House Lannister and Stark. It went from covert hostilities to practically open warfare thanks to Cat's stupid decision. This would have been obvious to anyone that such an act would led to war. The last time someone was kidnapped at knife point was Lyanna Stark - and everyone in the 7 Kingdoms, including Catelyn, knew how horrible that turned out. And her rash act was going entirely against her mission objectives - which was to send 200 archers to Moat Catlin and help prepare White Harbor's defences etc.. furthermore taking the road to the Vale precludes the means of swiftly notifying the North to mobilize the defences.

2. Moreover the fact that Tyrion was kidnapped in public - out in the open - could not stop news reaching King's Landing. The inn was full of people - there absolutely zero possibility that she would silence so many witnesses?

3. She had absolutely no mandate to arrest Tyrion - I've already mentioned why. If you want you can ask me about that later.

I just think she trusted Lysa too much with that letter...Anyways, Catelyn's acts were not completely emotional. It is important to note that she had some reason to do it based on the information she had at the time. A terrible mistake she did, yes, but not all her fault.

You say she's not completely emotional... yeah, maybe. I'm sure we can argue the same for Tywin being not completely evil either. But we're talking about whether Catelyn's actions were justifiable, irrational and based more on emotion than careful thought.

I'd like to defend Catelyn's case - but the evidence against her is so irrefutable that it really bemuses me why so many people choose to defend her.

Defend her as being brave, gutsy, stubborn, determined - but don't try and make the argument that she was making her decisions seem like sensible, rational, logical. well thought out stratagems.

All of them bear the hallmarks of a person who is emotionally driven, and irrational in her thinking to the point of foolishness.

1. the decision to kidnap Tyrion out in the open

2. her decision to bury the corpses in hostile territory

3. her decision to free Jamie Lannister

4. There is the matter about her 14 year old grudge against her husband's child but let's stick to the 1st 3.

I've said a lot about it on the thread that you mentioned - in the links I provided and here too.

[lyvyathan]

There have been a lot of threads about Catelyn's behaviour/decisions etc. Catelyn seems to draw a lot of haters, but there are also those who defend her actions. A lot of the bad press seems to be due to her behaviour towards Jon, her breakdown after Bran's fall and her abduction of Tyrion. It's my opinion Lady Stoneheart is only part of the person Catelyn was. I see Catelyn as someone who had Robb's best interests at heart, and did what she could for him. Releasing Jaime was a lapse of judgement, based on desperation. Arresting Tyrion might have turned out differently if it weren't weren't for Lysa's madness (or conspiracy with LF, who knows). Still, it was bound to be a dangerous course, no matter what happened.

I wouldn't describe myself as a Cat hater. She was after all a good mother, brave, loyal to her family - but its more the people who attempt to credit her actions as being rational, or even justified that I'm confounded with. Just because there's a spot of dirt on snow doesn't necessarily make it black soil.

I see her as a very emotional woman prone to rash and foolish actions - that she is such a person is evidenced in the actions she takes. Yes, she's got some reason but you could even say that Tywin had some justification for "teaching that lesson" to Tyrion as well.

As for Stoneheart, I chose not to mention her because I do not blame her for the execution of

Brienne who was carrying the enemy's sword, letters of safe conduct from the enemy, and had point blank refused to kill a key enemy combatant commander [/spolier]. Cat was fighting in a guerrilla war and summary executions were expedient. I'd say that was probably one of the few rational decisions she made actually.

What exactly were Catelyn's reasons for openly abducting Tyrion? Did she even spell out the argument (that some of her forum defenders are making) that abducting Tyrion would somehow make her family safer or prevent the mobilization of Northern forces (which I thought was the weakest of arguments) ??.

She obviously wanted to bring him to justice for the attempted murder of her favorite son, Bran. And she had a hunch that bringing him to her sister would uncover the "Lannister plot". But that in itself is not a valid or rational justification for kidnapping him (and all that entailed). Even batty Lysa recognized that.

[QhorinHalfhand]

I felt that the transformation of Catalyn to Stoneheart and her subsequent behavior is totally logically in her character development.

Cat has always had that impulsive streak. She doesn't think - she just acts on impulse and emotion.

1. She stayed in Bran's room for months? after he fell down - totally neglecting Rickon.

2. Then she rushed to King's Landing - to confer with her husband leaving Bran and Rickon

3. She seizes Tyrion on impulse - in effectively declaring war on House Lannister - without even thinking about the consequences of retaliation to her husband and her daughters who are practically in Lannister territory (not to mention the Stark bannermen - the Tully estates + the matter of actually reaching her sister's castle safely)

4. She releases Jamie Lannister without consulting her son, her liege King - for only a foolish unsecured declaration by the Kingslayer that he would release her two daughters. Did she even consider whether Tywin Lannister would honor that promise? Not to mention the impact of releasing a major enemy player would have on the fragile alliance that Robb had created.

And of course - there's the matter that Stoneheart was dead for 3 whole days before being resurrected - rotting in the water like a dead fish - that would have surely had some negative impact on her (current) disposition..

As Stoneheart - well she's twisted, mean, cruel ... not to mention rotting in her flesh and probably missing most of her marbles too. Of course she's going to lash out - considering what an idiotic character she was when she was alive, her current behavior is easy to predict.

It would actually have been appropriate for her (in the story telling process) to have used Oathkeeper to do Brienne in.

well, catelyn pritty much fucked everithing up. beside, things written above, she hated jon snow, she was partly responsible for her sister getting mad, and than beliving her lie about lannisters murdering arryn. after that she persuaded ned to go to king landing, what kind of killed him. she made little finger who he is now, because she enjoyed flirting. she made ned to think that littlefinger is ok, and that's kinda killed him. she was jealuse in a such a big way that ned did not dare whoring, whitch would make him think straith, and he made stupid mistakes because of that. she made jon snow so scared of having sex, that he waited to long, and than chose honur over loved woman, and went back to the wall. she did't even manage to make proper contract with Freys, so it would not include Robb marrige, they were riverrun bannersman anyway and the should run aid besiged riverrun without a question. and let northman pass the fucking birdge.

ps. blame it on catelyn, most fucked up charecter ever

[Crown]

well, catelyn pritty much fucked everithing up. beside, things written above, she hated jon snow, she was partly responsible for her sister getting mad, and than beliving her lie about lannisters murdering arryn. after that she persuaded ned to go to king landing, what kind of killed him. she made little finger who he is now, because she enjoyed flirting. she made ned to think that littlefinger is ok, and that's kinda killed him. she was jealuse in a such a big way that ned did not dare whoring, whitch would make him think straith, and he made stupid mistakes because of that. she made jon snow so scared of having sex, that he waited to long, and than chose honur over loved woman, and went back to the wall. she did't even manage to make proper contract with Freys, so it would not include Robb marrige, they were riverrun bannersman anyway and the should run aid besiged riverrun without a question. and let northman pass the fucking birdge.

ps. blame it on catelyn, most fucked up charecter ever

That's naive. You should look at here from her own perspective. She wanted to protect her family, by all means.

[QhorinHalfhand]

That's naive. You should look at here from her own perspective. She wanted to protect her family, by all means.

yeah, i know, i was just kidding... i find it interesting, that even most honorable and ethic actions of some charachters are still selfish in the end. everyone have interests, but if they dont consider them in terms of bigger picture, they cannot achive their goal, not without regret. that's why littlefinger is so succesfull so far.

[Crown]

yeah, i know, i was just kidding... i find it interesting, that even most honorable and ethic actions of some charachters are still selfish in the end. everyone have interests, but if they dont consider them in terms of bigger picture, they cannot achive their goal, not without regret. that's why littlefinger is so succesfull so far.

That's how real people are, not one-dimensional personality's like the characters in most books. And yeah, that's wy Littlefinger is so good at the Game of Thrones.

[Ladywhiskers]

Because you say so eh? Obviously you have not been following the threads lol. Remember the time she kidnapped Tyrion don't you think she was being a mite bit irrational there?

1. Kidnapping a member of a major house usually causes war (she would remember Lyanna's kidnap which was the catalyst for the last bloody war which led to the slaughter of practically the entire enemy family in King's Landing - which coincidentally by the way, is also where her two lovely daughters +husband are at the moment.)

2. Kidnapping and taking Tyrion to the Vale was the worse possible choice because of the hazadous journey which she fully knew at the time. It would have been safer and faster for her to take him to Riverrun (ie to await the King's Justice). She decided to take Tyrion to see her sister because of a rather short letter her sister sent to her.

3. She had no authority to arrest Tyrion because her husband specifically told her to go back to Winterfell and mobilize 200 troops to man Moat Catlin and to prepare other Northern defences (White Harbor iirc). Not because he knew for certainty that there would be war, but only as a preparatory move. Making small defensive preparatory moves for war- in case you do not realize - "Preparation is not War". The US and its Western European allies have been preparing for war against the Soviet Union since the late 1950s - spending trillions of dollars - and its a war that has not come.

Kidnapping Tyrion - however - started the war. It gave Tywin the casus bellli which led House Lannister to fully mobilize their forces and attack unprepared Tully land etc.. (Remember Ned/Robert's war to free Lyanna? :) ) Meanwhile Stark and Tully forces have now been caught totally unawares by the event and are unprepared for the war.

So instead of going back North to help prepare defenses Catelyn decided to start the war all on her own without bothering to warn Tully/Stark forces. Now that's what I call an ultimate fail.

4. Looking at the evidence, I'd say she's pretty irrational and actually absolutely stupid, even ridiculous. Mayhaps you don't of course. :D

It was completely irrational to kidnap Tyrion. It was also a bit bone-headed to go to LF with the dagger, instead of going straight to Robert. Had she acted rationally and followed the real protocols, instead of acting impulsively and without any thought of the consequences, the mystery of who sent the assassin and whose dagger it was, would have been resolved instantly, and had a rather positive outcome for the Starks.

By kidnapping him, she started the war, which she had to know would happen. She seems to have had no thought for the safety of Ned or the girls, nor for her sons at Winterfell, at that moment. Cat has always been a bit irrational and frankly unfair--witness the way she treated Jon Snow over something that was never his fault, in spite of how nice he always was to her, and how devoted to the family he was. She's a strong, passionate person, with a deep capacity for blind, unthinking loyalty, but she's not particularly intelligent, insightful, or fair-minded.

[lyvyathan]

That's naive. You should look at here from her own perspective. She wanted to protect her family, by all means.

I don't agree with all of the previous poster's comments - but by using that form of logic "wanting to protect family above all else" or using the character's POV or sense of right or wrong - you could very well justify everything Tywin Lannister had done and even what Ramsay Snow did as well.

They all believed they were right and correct in their actions. It doesn't make it so. Even Tyrion could probably justify his decision to sexually abuse the sex slave - why, because he bought her services. That doesn't make it right.

[Crown]

I don't agree with all of the previous poster's comments - but by using that form of logic "wanting to protect family above all else" or using the character's POV or sense of right or wrong - you could very well justify everything Tywin Lannister had done and even what Ramsay Snow did as well.

They all believed they were right and correct in their actions. It doesn't make it so. Even Tyrion could probably justify his decision to sexually abuse the sex slave - why, because he bought her services. That doesn't make it right.

You're right, but somehow I can empathize with her feelings, and I understand the decisions she made. And indeed, that doesn't justify all of her actions.

[lyvyathan]

You're right, but somehow I can empathize with her feelings, and I understand the decisions she made. And indeed, that doesn't justify all of her actions.

OK, that's cool.

[HyacinthGirl]

...I miss Beric.

[Gurthnar]

...I miss Beric.

Agreed, I liked him far better than Lady Rotheart Unreasonable :-P

[JonHo]

I personally think Martin kind of fucked up with Stoneheart and Cersei in AFFC.