Things You Don't Like In Asoiaf

[CrypticWeirwood]

Lady Stoneheart is such a fundamentally different character from Lady Catelyn that I have no problem with her return. I actually like it, since there is a great poetic justice in Catelyn Tully nee Stark taking the vengeance she couldn't have in life, in death.

You mean Catelyn Stark née Tully. The word née is the feminine singular for born in French. She was born into House Tully and came to House Stark by marriage.

For her and her sister, you might say Catelyn Stark and her sister Lysa Arryn, both nées Tully.

For a man, you might perhaps say something like Ramsay Bolton né Snow, since he was born a Snow. Note the née-vs-né distiction. That, or use English. ;-}

[Alexia]

Blargh! You are absolutely correct of course, and I was typing faster than my brain was working. *edits*

Alas, my stupid laptop at home doesn't let me use accent marks, but I'm fixing the other...

[Greatjim]

Lady Stoneheart is such a fundamentally different character from Lady Catelyn that I have no problem with her return. I actually like it, since there is a great poetic justice in Catelyn Stark nee Tully taking the vengeance she couldn't have in life, in death.

I guess, but as a character who finally managed to win my sympathy in her final chapter (being driven to madness and murder in her last minute of life is some serious shit) I'm not overly fond of the undead uber-bitch turn. Hanging Brienne and Pod ruined that sympathy. She hasn't done much yet though, I'll wait and see how it turns out.

[Raksha the Demon]

Too many dreams, visions, prophecies; they blunt the impact of each supposed fateful message. I'm beginning to think that most of them are nonsense meant to mislead the characters and us.

I could really, really do with less detail about bodily functions - and I don't mean sex and eating.

Disfigurement of physically attractive people; one might make sense, by accident or battle-scar or bad weather, but the brutal scarring of Myrcella really bothered me; and she's not the only one.

[Alexia]

I could really, really do with less detail about bodily functions - and I don't mean sex and eating.

Total agreement from these quarters. Yes, we all have bodily functions. No, I don't care to read about characters experiencing these functions in my books -- IMO, that is just filler and lends little and less to the story.

[Knight of Ashes]

Disfigurement of physically attractive people; one might make sense, by accident or battle-scar or bad weather, but the brutal scarring of Myrcella really bothered me; and she's not the only one.

What about the disfigurement of unattractive types such as Tyrion and Brienne? :P

Though it's pretty much in keeping with the series' mentality "Just 'cause things are bad doesn't mean they can't get worse", what happened with Brienne in particular, struck me as gratuitous; As if the author was aware her chapters were dragging so the solution chosen was to have someone eat her face.

[littlespider]

I could really, really do with less detail about bodily functions - and I don't mean sex and eating.

Wait, where is this? Besides Tywin's "deathbycrap" and the occasional reference to taking a piss, I don't follow.

DwD features a lot of diarrhea, but, well, they have dysentery, so I didn't really count that.

Then again, I've read a lot of Chaucer, where people fart in each other's faces, perform accidental cunnilingus, find hidey-holes in the devil's bum, and fondle each other's anuses (or is that "ani"?), so I'm immune to all but the most excessive reference to bodily functions.

[MinotaurWarrior]

2. Lollys. Agree with the disturbing way the episode is treated. The problem becomes magnified when you consider that had the Lollys situation been dealt with purely through unsympathetic POVS, it could be written off as values dissonance. However, Tyrion is the relevant POV, and is supposed to be a sympathetic character: since Tyrion regards the incident as not overly-serious, it does feel like it is being treated as comic.

Tyrion's a terrible person. A likable fellow, yes, but morally horrendous. That's part of the point of his character, imho. Not all horrible people are unlikable. Sometimes, you have to decide to dislike them, because of the things they've done, and that's a hard decision to make.

[Susan Delgado]

What is really beginning to upset me about the series is that the Stark kids just can't get a break. Everytime it looks like things are getting better for one of them it's completely torn away. I really hope that at least one of them is happy in the end.

[Raksha the Demon]

What about the disfigurement of unattractive types such as Tyrion and Brienne? :P

Though it's pretty much in keeping with the series' mentality "Just 'cause things are bad doesn't mean they can't get worse", what happened with Brienne in particular, struck me as gratuitous; As if the author was aware her chapters were dragging so the solution chosen was to have someone eat her face.

I didn't remember Brienne's having been disfigured; probably because I didn't reread her chapters with great interest. War injuries, such as Tyrion's nose being destroyed (was it obliterated or just badly cut; I keep wondering about his sinuses and how it would affect his breathing) at least have some realism. But a sheltered princess like Myrcella getting attacked and badly scarred, losing an ear, it just seems a bit much. We don't know enough about Myrcella for there really to be the start of a character arc for her with the injury; just snippets from Tyrion's POV and (I think) Doran's; and she seems like a nice, smart little girl, possibly the best of Cersei's spawn. It felt a little like GRRM was throwing the injury at the character to be cruel. Then there are two physically attractive characters who are scarred in ADWD (and I don't know how to do the spoiler tag)....Sometimes I wonder if GRRM is deliberately setting up attractive and/or privileged characters (like Shireen) for physical scarring.

The treatment of Lollys is sad and troubling. I swear, if Bronn kills the poor woman, I will consider throwing the books away. Lollys has been horribly brutalized (yes, all rape is ghastly, but raped by 50 men might be especially and overwhelmingly devastating) and then the court seems to either dismiss her or whisper or make snarky remarks. I do remember Shae being impatient with Lollys, when the Stokeworth ladies were trying to flee to the Keep; and Sansa trying to speak to her kindly when Lollys freaked and didn't want to move. It's sad; Lollys is utterly helpless, even Sansa had more power in King's Landing; and if Bronn decides to do away with her if she manages to give him a child, no one will even care. I can only hope that Bronn might find it in his heart to treat Lollys decently.

[Starbird]

But a sheltered princess like Myrcella getting attacked and badly scarred, losing an ear, it just seems a bit much. We don't know enough about Myrcella for there really to be the start of a character arc for her with the injury; just snippets from Tyrion's POV and (I think) Doran's; and she seems like a nice, smart little girl, possibly the best of Cersei's spawn. It felt a little like GRRM was throwing the injury at the character to be cruel.

I can only hope that Bronn might find it in his heart to treat Lollys decently.

Myrcella: I agree that her disfigurement was harsh but I've actually been wondering if she's going to be more than she currently appears. She reminds me of Bran in a way. Nice girl, smart, pretty, but above all resilient. It seems as though she's inherited her parents' best qualities, and she can deal with any situation that's thrown at her. (She's shipped off to Dorne, befriends her husband-to-be, and seems genuinely liked by everyone at court, even the Sand Snakes, and she's, what? 10?) So her being slashed could set her on a Bran-like path of alternate destiny, or it could be a Sansa-esque loss of innocence, although that role is already filled.

Bronn: he'd have to have a heart to find anything in it. I initially thought Bronn was awesome but now I find him intensely creepy. Possibly the most psychotic character in the book, even taking Ramsay Bolton into account, because he just doesn't care about anything. He doesn't seem to want or need anything. His social climbing even seems disinterested. Everything he does has a "what the hell?" kind of flavor to it. I don't think he cares about Lollys, the baby, his reputation, his social status . . . none of it. I think he likes taking the leap and seeing how far he can go, but he strikes me as being utterly without emotional attachment to anything.

[Spring Bass]

I'll fourth and fifth the cliff-hangers. They're irritating as hell when the author takes an infernally long time between books. Besides, GRRM has a big fanbase and a best-selling series. He doesn't really need to have cliff-hangers to get people coming back to buy them.

[Melpomene]

Animal abuse.

Yes, I'm cheesy and a huge wuss in that regard lol I can understand the implications/realities of war (Horses getting injured/dying in battle, for example. Far from wonderful for me, yet can stomach it decently enough), but I am *not*really keen on reading about a dog that gets impaled so it can be waved around at someones face, a horse that gets decapitated just because the owner was angry at it, a cat that has been shot by an arrow because it was something fun to do, horses, ponies, dogs, donkeys getting caught on fire and burning to death in a graphic way, loyal dogs getting hacked by an axe, bear bating, cooked unborn puppies, killing of puppies for a test, dog fighting, a pregnant cat who had its belly cut open....and so forth and so forth.

I just find it all unneccessary and a bit of overkill. Yes, a some of it did pertain to character development (Like showing Joffrey's insane cruelty that started very young, or Gregor Clegane) but regardless, I find it a tad much most of the time.

I even get paranoid now whenever new pets do come up (Like Tommen's kittens. Arrgh I wouldn't bare it if something happened to them) or Pretty Pig and Crunch. I am glad that there are other scenes showing characters loving animals, but otherwise it's a hard read when scenes like that come up. I get it, it was a rough world and the worth of lives were thought differently...stop repeating it again and again.

Then there is the very detailed rape scenes that were already discussed, of course.

I also really started disliking Tyrion for his treatment of her. In comparison with him Lollys is probably a beauty queen but he is disgusted by her while at the same time whining about all of these beautiful women who don´t want him....

^ Totally this. I agree. I find he is such a hypocrite in that regard. He complains about not having a (pretty) woman because of his looks, but when it comes to women who aren't up to parr in appearance for him he shuts them down like no ones business.

Are you serious, Tyrion? REALLY? You even met another drawf who happens to be a girl and treats you kindly, yet you don't "desire" her because she is considered ugly. Instead you want to pay a prostitute for sex or have dirty thoughts of an attractive septa.

I hate how all the starks got separated so long ago and have no been reunited since. Particularly with Arya and Bran, I don't understand why Bran wouldn't want his brother to know he is alive.

And I also agree with this - I have been hoping that one day that at least some of the family members would reunite, but that concept has been stretching farther and farther away. Hopefully it would just lead to something bigger and more meaningful in the upcoming future.

[Winterfell is Burning]

5. . Also the preponderance of male children is gratingly unrealistic: Balon Greyjoy has eight brothers, no sisters, and three of his four children are male. Walder Frey has twenty-one sons but only seven daughters. Tywin Lannister has three brothers and only one sister. Mace Tyrell has three sons and a daughter. Ned's kids have a reasonable 3-2 gender balance (excluding Jon), but he's one of three brothers with only one sister, and his father was an only child. Then Martin tries to overcompensate by giving us the Mormonts (Maege has five daughters and no sons) and by giving us Alys Waynwood's eight daughters and one son. It may be nitpicking, but that sort of gender imbalance comes across as silly.

Yes, finally someone else notices it. From the top of my head, Balon Greyjoy, Mace Tyrell, Rickard Stark, Yonn Royce, Rickard Karstark and Janos Slynt all had the same 3 sons and a single daughter combo. Doran Martell mentions that besides Elia and Oberyn, he had another brother that died.

Also, among the ones with an absurd number of daughters, is Oberyn himself.

In fact, apart from the ones you mentioned, Oberyn, and the Tullys (but even then, Hoster and Blackfish make the number of males bigger), every single major family and/or major character has more sons than daughters, and in most cases, much more sons.

This is partially explained by the fact that males can play a bigger number of roles, including going to the battlefield, but it's still ridiculous.

[pleonasm]

Its more of a pet peeve than anything, but I dislike Westeros. Well its size. Why so big? They all speak the same language, the cultures are relatively homogeous (yes there are difference between the regions, but nothing that one would expect give the vastness of the space), there was really no need to go so big. And its exceptionally well ordered for a medieval continent. How do these noble houses keep their country sized spaces intact? There should huge amounts of splintering and internal rebellions from smaller houses, yet order remains.

Reducng the North to the size of Scotland really would haven't changed anything fundamentally about the story and made the world a just a bit more plausible. And yes I know its light fantasy, but still...

[Winterfell is Burning]

Yeah, I agree that Westeros is unnecessarily big.

As for minor houses rebelling, this is partially explained by the fact that they can't really do much without approval from King's Landing.

Suppose you have a relatively big house in, say, the Reach, and you want to become the Lord Paramount and Warden of the South. You can go to war, beat the Tyrells completely and yet...you still won't be Lord Paramount and Warden because the King doesn't want you to be. In fact, he might as well send troops from outside the Reach to beat you up, take your lands and strip you of your titles.

Still, there is a history of minor houses rebelling: Reynes and Talbecks, the Skagosi, Gulltown and some Storm lords at the beginning of the rebellion, etc.

[Raksha the Demon]

Animal abuse.

Yes, I'm cheesy and a huge wuss in that regard lol I can understand the implications/realities of war (Horses getting injured/dying in battle, for example. Far from wonderful for me, yet can stomach it decently enough), but I am *not*really keen on reading about a dog that gets impaled so it can be waved around at someones face, a horse that gets decapitated just because the owner was angry at it, a cat that has been shot by an arrow because it was something fun to do, horses, ponies, dogs, donkeys getting caught on fire and burning to death in a graphic way, loyal dogs getting hacked by an axe, bear bating, cooked unborn puppies, killing of puppies for a test, dog fighting, a pregnant cat who had its belly cut open....and so forth and so forth.

I just find it all unneccessary and a bit of overkill. Yes, a some of it did pertain to character development (Like showing Joffrey's insane cruelty that started very young, or Gregor Clegane) but regardless, I find it a tad much most of the time.

I even get paranoid now whenever new pets do come up (Like Tommen's kittens. Arrgh I wouldn't bare it if something happened to them) or Pretty Pig and Crunch. I am glad that there are other scenes showing characters loving animals, but otherwise it's a hard read when scenes like that come up. I get it, it was a rough world and the worth of lives were thought differently...stop repeating it again and again.

Then there is the very detailed rape scenes that were already discussed, of course.

^ Totally this. I agree. I find he is such a hypocrite in that regard. He complains about not having a (pretty) woman because of his looks, but when it comes to women who aren't up to parr in appearance for him he shuts them down like no ones business.

Are you serious, Tyrion? REALLY? You even met another drawf who happens to be a girl and treats you kindly, yet you don't "desire" her because she is considered ugly. Instead you want to pay a prostitute for sex or have dirty thoughts of an attractive septa.

And I also agree with this - I have been hoping that one day that at least some of the family members would reunite, but that concept has been stretching farther and farther away. Hopefully it would just lead to something bigger and more meaningful in the upcoming future.

I have the feeling that GRRM is not an animal lover; except maybe of cats. Ser Pounce will probably outlive poor little Tommen; alas. I didn't bring up the frequent cruelty to animals because I try to tune it out as much as possible, if I really were to think about what is supposedly, even in a fictional context, happening to the puppies and dogs and cats, etc., I couldn't read all the books. Thankfully, Lady's death was off-screen and mercifully done; thanks to Ned; and that was hard enough to read.

I also cringe at the hangings, and the descriptions of the deaths of Elia and her children.

[seanbean4lyfe]

Myrcella: I agree that her disfigurement was harsh but I've actually been wondering if she's going to be more than she currently appears. She reminds me of Bran in a way. Nice girl, smart, pretty, but above all resilient. It seems as though she's inherited her parents' best qualities, and she can deal with any situation that's thrown at her. (She's shipped off to Dorne, befriends her husband-to-be, and seems genuinely liked by everyone at court, even the Sand Snakes, and she's, what? 10?) So her being slashed could set her on a Bran-like path of alternate destiny, or it could be a Sansa-esque loss of innocence, although that role is already filled.

Bronn: he'd have to have a heart to find anything in it. I initially thought Bronn was awesome but now I find him intensely creepy. Possibly the most psychotic character in the book, even taking Ramsay Bolton into account, because he just doesn't care about anything. He doesn't seem to want or need anything. His social climbing even seems disinterested. Everything he does has a "what the hell?" kind of flavor to it. I don't think he cares about Lollys, the baby, his reputation, his social status . . . none of it. I think he likes taking the leap and seeing how far he can go, but he strikes me as being utterly without emotional attachment to anything.

Myrcella is so awesome. She is one of my favorite non POV characters. I hope we hear more about her in the future, and not just as a plot device.

I agree with what you said about Bronn. I still think he is badass, but you're completely right about his chracacter. He has no weaknesses really. Nothing to get him on, he kind of just rolls with it. Now, it's awesome, but he has no depth whatsoever...so I never really understand

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

This will probably be an unpopular post but here goes. Overindulgent writing. I only started reading the books at the start of the summer so the longest I've had to wait for the next installment is the time it takes me to reach the bookshop. But the poor guys who have stuck with Martin from the beggining have had to wait fifteen years just for the fifth book out of seven to be completed. I quote from AFFC "the rest of the characters you love or hate will be along next year" But it took five years for the next one to come out. And for the people who disliked the Dany arc (and judging from this thread that's a lot of you) they had to put up with half the book being completely removed from the centre of the action. It's not a case of good things come to those who wait. It's not a case of writers block. GRRM needs a proper editor.

Feel free to rage at me now.

I agree with you, I'm a big dany fan most of the time, but I was annoyed that it seemed like nothing happened until the last couple chapters in tyhe books. also the Editor was running around boasting about how she told GRRM to put a big event in the next book that he was going to put in ADWD, assuming it was either the Battle of Winterfell or Mereen, that like cutting ACOK before the Battle of Blackwater.

[ylvs]

Way too much rape/threat of rape going on.

Related: Lollis' gang rape and the way it is written off as something almost comical irks me to no end.

Yep, I heartily support that.