Dany won't save Westeros from the Others, the Others will save Westeros from Dany

[Francis Buck]

WARNING: LONG-ASS POST AHEAD

**SPOILERS**

Sounds crackpot I know, but give me a chance. I don't have this completely figured out yet, particularly some stuff with the prophecies, so it's kind of a work in progress. Nonetheless, I do believe that the "main points" of it have a good chance of being true. This will likely turn into a long post, so bear with me. I'm going to first lay out a few basic concepts that I think support the actual theory, which I'll get to in a second.

For starters, I think there are many, many "red herrings" (for lack of a better word) in this series, placed there to make us think one (often the most obvious) thing when the reality is quite different. I believe this includes most of the prophecies, including Azor Ahai and the Prince That Was Promised, along with much of the various religious mythology in the series.

Secondly, I think that the history of the world, particularly ancient history (beyond a few thousand years or so) is more or less completely unreliable. Well, not completely, but it's very distorted. GRRM has sprinkled numerous hints throughout the series that the generally accepted history of the world may not be the whole truth, and is in-fact more akin to being legends derived from history, as opposed to actual historical fact in and of itself. I think this is most important when it comes to the Others.

Now I come to magic and it's connection with religion. I do not believe that, at least in GRRM's mind, there are any actual "gods" per se. I don't think there's actually a R'hllor, or the Seven Gods of the Faith, or anything really. I think this is partially supported by the fact that even the old gods turned out to not really be "true" gods in the typical sense of the word, but simply a group of incredibly powerful wargs capable of near omniscient awareness and knowledge. In addition, I also believe that magic itself is really just one "thing"; all magic comes from the same "source", whatever that may be, and is simply attributed to different gods and deities by the humans that use it. There's also a lot of similarities between much of the magic in the world, particularly that of resurrection and prophecy. We have seen resurrection in MANY forms, from the Others and their necromancy, to R'hllor and the red priests, and even with the seemingly unrelated blood magic. In addition, prophecy also appears in at least three different "schools" of magic: looking into fire, greendreams, and again blood magic (Maggy's prophecies about Cersei). I don't think all of these connections are simply coincidental or arbitrary; it's because all magic is essentially the same, just used or "manifested" in different ways. In other words, I think that, for example, the resurrection used by the Others and the resurrection used by red priests are fundamentally the same kind of magic, just used for different purposes.

So now that all of that is laid out, let me go over the basics of what I think the story is building up to, and what will more or less ultimately take place.

Firstly, I do not think there is an ultimate group of good guys and bad guys. I think there will definitely be two main armies at the end, but neither will be clearly good or evil (this fits in with GRRM's adherence to the "grayness" of humanity in general). These two armies, at least in a basic sense, can essentially be broken into the North and the South. The North will include Stannis and all of the loyal Northmen, along with the Petyr Baelish-controlled Riverlands, and Jon (who will be resurrected; I'll get to that later) leading all of the wildlings and the remnants of the Night's Watch, all of which will be rallied beneath the renewed House Stark (almost certainly through Rickon; I believe this is basically his primary purpose in the story). On the other-hand we have the South, led by Danaerys and her armies, combined with Aegon (who I believe is legitimate) and his armies, and thus Dorne, as well as most of the other southern armies (the Lannister's forces will be rallied through Tyrion, who is now the true heir to Casterly Rock, and whom I believe will essentially become Dany's Hand of the Queen), all of which will be held under the renewed House Targaryen (notice the parallels...the Starks (ice) were seemingly destroyed and will rise again, just as the Targaryens (fire) were seemingly disbanded but are about to rise yet again). The Tyrells and the Greyjoys are kind of wildcard at this point, but if I had to guess I would say the Tyrells will ultimately rally with Dany and Aegon, while the Iron Islands will be basically be split up, with Victarion and his forces (wielding the Dragon Horn) siding with Danaerys, and Euron (spurned by Victarion's betrayal) siding with the North. These two armies will be formed, or at least be in the process of forming, by the end of Winds of Winter. This aspect of the theory is probably the one I'm most certain of, but it's still not really the bread and butter of it.

The real point here kind of comes down to Jon. I believe Jon will be resurrected by Melisandre in much the same way Cat was. However, I think Jon will be rather different than he was before (again, GRRM has been quoted saying that were will be a "graying" of Jon's character, which I think we began to see a little bit of in aDwD, and which will only continue to grow as the series progresses). I think that Jon will essentially become the new Night King. He will go against his vows (which he is theoretically freed of by his "death") and basically rally all of the Night's Watch and the wildings to his cause, which is the retaking of the North and the revival of House Stark. But it goes deeper than all of this. Let me explain my theory about the Others.

The Others are not truly "another species". They were once humans, but had access to great resurrection magic (the same magic used to revive Cat, Beric, etc.). However, I believe that they had used this magic to revive themselves so many times, over so many thousands of years, that they eventually transformed into something very different; all the "fire of life" had gone out of them, and they became beings of cold, both literally and figuratively (though they are NOT inherently evil, simply remorseless and without mercy in their cause, just like Cat). So in a sense, Cat could be viewed as something of a "baby Other" (silly term I know, but you get my meaning). I believe that Melisandre is actually even further along in this process, as we have had hints that she is much older than she appears (likely having been resurrected many times), and is simply using her illusory powers (the jewel upon her neck) to hide her true appearance.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the Starks are associated with coldness and winter, to the point of even being known as the Kings of Winter (a title they will soon reclaim). I would not even be surprised if the Others are actually descendants of the northern peoples. But getting back to Jon, I believe Melisandre will ressurect him, and then Jon, freed of his vows, will take her as his wife and truly become the new Night King (the last Night King took a pale women as his bride and could raise and control undead during the night...and what's the only time that the Others and their undead come around? The night). I think the idea that R'hllor's magic and the Others are at odds is actually just another red herring; the two forms of magic are fundamentally intertwined (as you can see, the title of the series, A Song of Ice and Fire, is not so simple as it may seem, and in fact plays upon many different levels of the saga). I also believe that Jon's Targaryen lineage, assuming it's real (which I think it is), does not have to same meaning people think it does. I do not think that Jon will be one of the "three heads of the dragon"; in fact I think the whole three-heads thing is a little over emphasized (though if I had to guess who they were, I would say Dany, Aegon, and Tyrion...but again I don't think this is really super relevant to the story at large).

Which brings us to the prophecy of the Great Other. I do not think GRRM would place such an idea into the series if the truth was so obvious. The Great Other is not THE Others (how much more obvious can you get?), but in fact the Great Other is simply the other foe, the other enemy, the one will bring "darkness" to Westeros; Dany. I hesitate to use this description, but for the sake of argument I will: I think that Dany could essentially be seen as the "main bad guy", at least from the perspective of the Starks and the North in general. What's brilliant though is that I don't think we're SUPPOSED to look at either Jon and his army or Dany and her army as being the "good guys and the bad guys". We've seen them both from the beginning more or less. Dany believes what she is doing is entirely right, and in a way it is (from her perspective). But then what Jon is doing (or what he WILL do) could also be seen as the right thing. Again, in the end, there are no true good guys or bad guys. Just people fighting for what they believe in.

So finally we come to central point behind all this; that when the Others finally do come (not until near the end of the last book, if I had to guess), they will be under the power of the Night King, and will essentially save the North, though at the cost of bringing a terrible winter upon the land (thus allowing the Starks to regain their power, and once again becoming the Kings of Winter). I think Sam's story also plays into this. We know he has a mysterious broken horn; I believe it is the Horn of Joramun. Except instead of it being used by some unknown enemy or by the Others themselves to break down the wall, it will be used by Jon and the Northmen to bring down the wall to actually allow the Others to come and ultimately help defeat the Danaerys. Another interesting parallel here; one horn for the south (to control dragons), one horn for the north (to "free" the Others).

So that's just the basic broad strokes of it. I could go on even more, as I have theories about how Bran and the Children (who I believe are definitely as not benign as they seem, and in fact may have been responible for originally teaching the men of the north the powers of resurrection). I also think that Littlefinger and Sansa of course have a large part to play in all of this, though I believe their story will be more important to the actual formation of the two main armies then it will to the endgame scenario. I also have some fairly detailed ideas behind how exactly AA and the PTWP fit into all this, but I'll add those a little later since this is already long enough.

I know there are definitely some kinks in this theory, but I do think that, at least in the larger sense, a lot of this is going to happen. At the very least, I do NOT believe that the end will just be Dany allying with Jon and the rest of Westeros against a big showdown with the Others. It's just way too obvious for GRRM, and doesn't really fit with tone he has tried so hard to create with this series.

Let me know what you think.

[Lord Damian]

wow

[Sol_Virtus]

***POTENTIAL SPOILERS HERE AS WELL****

I appreciate the thoughtfulness and thoroughness of this post, but personally I'd have to disagree, and I don't see the story realistically moving in this direction.

Yes, GRRM is a "sneaky" writer in that nothing can be taken for granted, and I'm sure there will be an unexpected bombshell revelation or two for a climax...but not this.

First of all, a "The Others are reeally the GOOD guys, Omg!!" ending would be infinitely MORE cheesy than the cookie-cutter expectation that they are bad. To me, and I daresay at least 95% of the fan base, this would result in one giant collective eyeroll.

Secondly, there's nothing to suggest that Dany (or Jon or Tyrion or any potential Azor Ahai) is a bad guy. These characters are by no means perfect saints, but to be evil on a global scale, you almost invariably must have evil intent.

What evil act could Dany ever do to Westeros that would necessitate the Undead having to rise and stop her? Kill thousands of troops in her war to reclaim the throne? Why, that's no different than Robert or Stannis or Robb or Tywin or just about any other lord in the history of Westeros. Because she has Dragons? The Others didn't rise to stop Aegon the Conqueror, and he had bigger ones.

On the contrary, everything up to this point suggests that Dany is a very compassionate and good character and queen. She locked up her own dragons just because one might have attacked a single innocent child. You really see her allowing them to (or anyone) to ravage an entire populace? Same goes for Jon; he's the very model of selflessness and duty and compassion- disgustingly so, at times.

On the other hand, The Others kill anything and everyone they come into contact with without prejudice. Wildlings, Night Watch, animals, everything. They are chaos and death and wanton destruction, the very embodiment of desolation and evil.

Maybe I didn't get the gist of your post, but it just seems like your grasping for something where there's nothing.

[Claude The Sweetling]

I could see Dany going "Mad King" style and burning everyone up.

1) Her dragons are crazy and cant be tamed. It is representative of thier "Mother"...much like shaggydog is very wild because of Rick's confusion over his family leaving.

2) She has been raised on Visery's point of view on the ways things happened during the rebellion, and we all know how he could be. Is she likely to pardon all who fought against her family? Lannisters, baratheons, Starks, Tullys, Arryns and all their bannerman.

3) And how will she react to YG and his claim? Her mind is call cloudy with prophecies and betrayals and Dothraki superstitions and Visery's hate and want of revenge, and her own antics about being the mother of her people and True Love and wasted wombs.

But........as for the others being good, I dont see that happening.

[Stefan_Sasse]

While Dany might go rogue, looking for help from the Others is like looking for help in a flood when your house is on fire. Yeah, the fire will be put out, but your house is still destroyed.

[fassreiter]

I agree with many points, although I couldn't see it playing out exactly like this, for example I can't see Jon becoming Night's King. But it's funny that every time someone utters the notion that the Others might not be the big bad, you almost reflectively get the answer: What, do you think they are the good guys? And you get an eyeroll, too, each time.

Hell, no one believes the Others are 'good', nor that Dany is 'evil'. There is no good and evil in this book. It's much more unbelievable that the Others are simply some kind of monster race and the story goes: Now let's see how these our brave human heroes with their glowing swords fight them off once more, har.

Why all the political background, the intrigue, the game of thrones, then? There has to be some metaphor in this whole business at the end, or it is just another very long and meaningless rattling with swords.

I think the notion that two essentially human armies will stand against each other in the end is a good one, and I also think both of them will believe their cause to be the right one, and we will have enough POVs of each to see these two perspectives. This board will fight until kingdom come about who was right in the end, when the last book is long done.

I think these books are more some kind of political parable (like T.H. White's Once and Future King), and I just can't see 'fire and blood' at its rightful center. Both Ice and Fire are destructive forces, and both the Others and the dragons are a danger to humanity. Not just because they kill or eat them, but because they are symbolisations of power. Power corrupts, and something as fickle and greedy as fire is much more dangerous when it gets corrupted, as we have already heard of, and start to see it. Fire is close to madness, so the Targaryens are constantly in danger of losing power by having too much of it. Ice, on the other hand, is 'conservative', which is almost as dangerous. Ice is cruel and merciless. Politics should be nothing of that kind, but a mixture of these two. So the logic thing would be to have these two mix up in a person like Jon, and look at what we found: he is exactly that. So all he needs is a foil to act on, and this would be Daenerys. The notion of the two of them joining forces and becoming King and Queen of Westeros is too easy, and too much of a cop out. Jon has been raised in the North, so far he has not done one simple injustice. I am sure he will die at the end of the books, but not before he is forced to kill Daenerys. Who has done many, many injustices so far. To bring the two of them together and just wipe out her tyrannical acts would be lame. Yes, tyrannical.

I expect that in the end, North and South will stand against each other, and everyone has to choose a side. Then, in the end, before they go at it, I am sure there will be a moment of horrifying realization what they are doing here, and that they can understand the 'other', but still can't go against what they believe to be true. This will be the bittersweet moment GRRM has announced, not some sacrifice for love, or mounts to some beds, or some cheesy teenager's dream. We are talking politics here, and human beings who have to act them out and suffer for it. The more power you get, the more likely you are to suffer bad, or you have to make others do it. This has so far been GRRM's credo, why should he change that in the end? Fighting evil, otherworldly, not-human Others as ultimate goal is just too boring to be true.

And by the way: Any post-structuralist author, as I believe this one to be, who goes and creates entities that are by definition the enemies of humanity, and then goes and calls them THE OTHERS would be too stupid to come even up with a plot for a hundred pages. This book is about anything but about xenophobia. On the contrary, so far we have seen how walls were made smaller and cultures were made understandable for each other in small ways and small steps. So sure, now there will come the real OTHERNESS, something we will finally be allowed to hate for a change? Because hatred is surely what GRRM wants us to feel, right? Eyeroll. No, it's much more true and much more bitter if the 'enemy' is someone we love. Or, in other words, if there is no enemy, just politcs, and people who want to do the right thing.

[Francis Buck]

I'll add more to this later, but let me clarify something. The Others are NOT good....but nor are they evil. Just like Varys, Jaime, Tyrion, and Dany, there is no true good and evil. The Others are simply an end to a mean, much like dragons. And as I said, there are no "good guys and bad guys". There are just people. Some people have dragons, some have the Others. Neither is "right" or "wrong". It's all about perspective. Which is, in my opinion, the beauty of the story. Who is more right? Dany restoring House Targaryen and claiming what is rightfully hers? Or Jon restoring House Stark and reclaiming the title of the Kings of Winter? Neither one is "better" than the other. The dragons (fire) of House Targaryen are a rampant force of nature, just as the Others (ice) are a force of nature in the north.

Again, there is no "good army and bad army". Only humans, fighting for what they believe in. To me, this is the essence of GRRM's saga.

[Great Other]

Great theory lol.I would like it to be so but you forget:

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

[Black Crow]

Great theory lol.I would like it to be so but you forget:

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

Not at all; I've posted quite a lot about this on the same thread (and a couple of others as well) on the ADWD side of the forum. Essentially the White Walkers are not the Others per se but the icy blue- eyed magical servants of Ice just as Mel is a fiery red-eyed magical servant of Fire. Jon's ultimate destiny will be to meet, defeat and perhaps kill Dany on the Trident to restore the balance between Ice and Fire which is currently being upset.

[Lord of Many Faces]

Or maybe Jon will be "the bad guy" once he's resurrected as the new Night King?

[Zeromus]

Personally, I find it difficult to understand why people insist on overcomplicating the story. The White Walkers are bad. They kill everything - people and animals; they turn the dead into undead servants which seek and kill the living. The Children of the Forest, who have no cause to like mankind, willingly side with man to fight the Others. The Others thrive in the darkest, coldest, most inhospitable season of winter.

Dany is a fantasy heroine. She has magical fire-breathing killing machines perfectly suited to killing ice monsters and their highly flammable servants. She even has a dream where she's killing the damn things (which must be prophetic 'cause she's never even seen the Trident or the Others). Westeros is her kingdom. The Others are threatening her kingdom... Do you see where this is leading?

[Francis Buck]

Personally, I find it difficult to understand why people insist on overcomplicating the story. The White Walkers are bad. They kill everything - people and animals; they turn the dead into undead servants which seek and kill the living. The Children of the Forest, who have no cause to like mankind, willingly side with man to fight the Others. The Others thrive in the darkest, coldest, most inhospitable season of winter.

Dany is a fantasy heroine. She has magical fire-breathing killing machines perfectly suited to killing ice monsters and their highly flammable servants. She even has a dream where she's killing the damn things (which must be prophetic 'cause she's never even seen the Trident or the Others). Westeros is her kingdom. The Others are threatening her kingdom... Do you see where this is leading?

I would say you're over-simplifying the story. Very little in this saga is so cut and dry. Few characters (Gregor, Joffrey) are straight up villains, and pretty much no one is totally good (you could make an argument for someone like Bran I suppose, but he's also still a child and there's room for growth). Like it or not, this IS a complex story, and as GRRM has shown time and time again, things rarely play out the way people generally expect them to, especially when it comes to the typical fantasy-genre tropes like the ones you bring up, which he almost obsessively subverts throughout the series. There's no reason to assume he's suddenly going to stop doing all of this at the end of the saga.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Dany is a fantasy heroine. She has magical fire-breathing killing machines perfectly suited to killing ice monsters and their highly flammable servants. She even has a dream where she's killing the damn things (which must be prophetic 'cause she's never even seen the Trident or the Others).

Except that she calls them “the Usurper’s” — meaning Robert’s. In what way are the Others Robert’s?

[Black Crow]

Except that she calls them “the Usurper’s” — meaning Robert’s. In what way are the Others Robert’s?

Exactly so. The dream is specifically about Rhaegar's battle on the Trident in which she fantasises about how much different it would have been if there had been Targarayen dragons. "This is how it was meant to be" not "how it will be". There's certainly some foreshadowing in the way that Robert Baratheon's forces are armoured in ice but its how she wants it to happen, not how it will happen.

[voodooqueen126]

I think while their are few purely good characters (Brienne, Septon Meribald come to mind, perhaps Elia Martell from certain ADWD descriptions of her).

There are certainly an abundance of evil characters.

The Other's are not evil, they maybe slightly like Yeerks in that in order for them to be happy everyone else has to be miserable.

Or one could say that they are no more evil than HIV: they are inimical to human life, but the people who are too shortsighted to prevent their entry are the ones who are evil.

The Starks have been fighting the Others since Bran the builder's time.

Still even if Daenerys is Genghis Khan, Joseph Stalin, Mary Tudor, Emperor Hadrian all rolled into one great big ball of evil incompetence. I would still pick her over global HIV infection/Others taking over.

[Paurush]

This story is clearly not about good or bad so please stop this moralistic war over its character.

Except John the attitude of all the rest towards The Others is seriously Xenophobic.

And to be honest i do believe Jon will be the King of Winter with horn of joramun coming to him he will break the wall in the story to come.

And Daenerys is surely the Queen of fire in this story the Azzor Ahai. As We only have prophesies from the followers of fire side so i dont believe AA surely means "Good Guy"

And for the battle will be between the forces of the world as the shadow lands of fire and the cold lands of ice are both terrible places so the victory of anyone will be the death of mankind .

It has to be a balance and hence the song of ice and fire. So the prince that was promised would have nothing to do with Dany or Jon but should be someone else "Aegon" If we believe Raehgar or may be Stannis,Tyrion or Anyone. Anyone but these powers!

The story is based on ying yang or balance

Dethroning the present beliefs of Fanatic good and evil which we all are so addicted to !

[Arkash]

Now I have in mind a scene where Dany is killed by White Walkers (not Others).... so fucking epic !!! I want it !!!

[The Oncoming Storm]

I don't care who, just SOMEBODY deal with Dany. I'd rather have Stannis or Jon or even Jaime. Someone who doesn't spend their time fangirling Daario and playing deaf whenever Barristan tries to tell her no, dad was NOT that great a king.

[Revan Baratheon]

I don't care who, just SOMEBODY deal with Dany. I'd rather have Stannis or Jon or even Jaime. Someone who doesn't spend their time fangirling Daario and playing deaf whenever Barristan tries to tell her no, dad was NOT that

great a king.

:agree: considering how her rule in mereen ended...i think westeros is better off without her,no one wants another queen Cersie

[PatrickStormborn]

The Others bring with them a Long Night, a permanent winter and an army of ice zombies, so whilst they may not be "evil", they are certainly not going to "save Westeros" from Daenerys.