R+L=J XXV

[Dragonfish]

The Kingsguard has been detailed as being of fluctuating responsibility, given the King's whimsy/stance; from solely guarding the king himself, to guarding the family and others. They do live in the center of KL and are a constant presence as the Kingsguard. Would their presence only signify the presence of the heir?

While Aerys was still alive? Not necessarily. After Aerys and Rhaegar and Aegon were dead, and the supposed new king was stowed away on Dragonstone without Kingsugard protection? Yes, I think there must have been an heir there. Nothing else explains why they shirked their responsibility to guard Viserys.

[alyanna]

Hi everyone, I'm new here and this is my first post.

When I read about R+L=J, I thought "why didn't you get to it yourself????" because it sort of clicked in my mind with some other things I was thinking about while reading ADWD.

The things that interested me most were Bran's chapters: he is not only a warg, but now he is becoming part of all the weirwoods, he sees and hears things (present AND past)only meant for the old gods.

Ned appears to be a devout man, so he could have "told" the old gods about Lyanna and Rhaegar, 'cause they couldn't tell anybody, could they?

and now Brandon can hear about it too.

So what next? How could this info reach Jon?

Well, here I must completely guess...

It seems to me that being a warg is better and easier when asleep, especially if you're at the beginning, as Bran was back in Winterfell and as Jon is now. Jon is deadly wounded (I won't say dying 'cause I don't like the thought) so he could have now his three-eyed crow dreams and learn from Bran the truth about his parents.

I don't know how this will work out with the plot, I don't know if it's possible or what...

what do you think? I'd like to know your opinion...

Bloodraven said he watched Bran’s birth and Ned’s, too. Bran I can understand because he was waiting for another human greenseer, but why Ned’s? Not just for Ned being Bran’s father, or he would have mentioned Cat’s, too. But he didn’t. So why Ned’s and not just Bran’s?

And if he watched those two’s births, mightn’t he have watched Jon’s as well?

Bloodraven has to know the whole story. And I’m betting Bran will eventually learn it, too.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The Kingsguard has been detailed as being of fluctuating responsibility, given the King's whimsy/stance; from solely guarding the king himself, to guarding the family and others. They do live in the center of KL and are a constant presence as the Kingsguard. Would their presence only signify the presence of the heir? Some of the KG were clearly deployed to blunt the attack on Aerys and the Throne, and others were there to protect Aerys in person. (...As an aside... Oooooops.) :thumbsup: Not sure I accept that their presence alone is proof.

Think of it this way: By the time Ned arrived at the Tower of Joy, Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were all dead.

I'm ignoring ADWD developments and going by what characters thought to be true at the time, obviously.

Their loyalty would, theoretically, immediately transfer to the next-in-line, regardless of what orders they'd been given beforehand. Rhaegar's orders for the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy would've been nullified by his death. If Viserys had been the legitimate heir, their loyalty would've transferred to him and they would've gone to Dragonstone immediately. But they didn't. Why? Because Viserys wasn't the heir.

It's possible that two discrete yet specific duties — one being Rhaegar's orders to protect his wife and son, the other being to protect the true heir to the throne at that time — dovetailed into one visible action: their presence at the Tower of Joy.

And based on Ned's conversation with them, they knew that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead; this wasn't an act done out of ignorance, i.e. they stayed because they mistakenly thought Rhaegar was alive. Ned all but asks them outright why they aren't on Dragonstone, and they all but say, albeit obtusely, that Viserys is not the rightful king.

[The Great Cornholio!]

Think of it this way: By the time Ned arrived at the Tower of Joy, Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were all dead.

I'm ignoring ADWD developments and going by what characters thought to be true at the time, obviously.

Their loyalty would, theoretically, immediately transfer to the next-in-line, regardless of what orders they'd been given beforehand. Rhaegar's orders for the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy would've been nullified by his death. If Viserys had been the legitimate heir, their loyalty would've transferred to him and they would've gone to Dragonstone immediately. But they didn't. Why? Because Viserys wasn't the heir. It's possible that two discrete yet specific duties — one being Rhaegar's orders to protect his wife and son, the other being to protect the true heir to the throne at that time — dovetailed into one visible action: their presence at the Tower of Joy. And based on Ned's conversation with them, they knew that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead; this wasn't an act done out of ignorance, i.e. they stayed because they mistakenly thought Rhaegar was alive. Ned all but asks them outright why they aren't on Dragonstone, and they all but say, albeit obtusely, that Viserys is not the rightful king.

References please.

[CrypticWeirwood]

References please.

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

“When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

“I came down on Storm’s End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, “and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

[Kadence]

So I've read a few people post that they figured on R+L=J only from the TV show, without reading the books. I've seen seen it stated it was "obvious". My question - what on the show gives them this idea? The only thing regarding Jon's parentage I see is Ned's "I promise" which only means something if you read the books prior.

I'm pretty confused as to how those who watched the TV show only figured this out :) I can barely even recall Rhaeghar being mentioned and if I hadn't already read the books, I don't think I'd know who Rhaeghar even was.

References please.

Yes, and it's the "We swore a vow" that CrypticWeirwood quotes which makes it especially obvious. They swore a vow to guard the King. Not follow the orders of the dead Prince, who was never even King anyway and who they never vowed to obey, let alone after his death.

R+L married and IMO there's not much room for debate on it. The KG issue is a fairly open and shut case. Not only haven't they abandoned Viserys to his fate but Ned basically offers to let them to go their "King" and they refuse. No Kingsguard who wasn't a craven oathbreaker would do this - and obviously even if Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower weren't the embodient of honor, a craven oathbreaker would have fled at Ned's offer and not fought him. These three men didn't abandon Viserys in violation of their most sacred oath - they died to protect their King from the agents of Robert.

I can't think of any other satisfactory explanation for why they'd want to fight Ned, anyway, other than keeping the existence of Jon a secret and the infant King out of Robert's custody.

[Cricket]

Wow! :huh:

Thanks everyone! I never really thought of Benjen in this whole situation.

It makes a lot of sense to me as well, too.

I did wonder why he may have wanted to join the Night's Watch, especially when only he and Ned were left of the Stark brood.

When I think on it, Benjen did seem to be very fond of Jon and he also seemed to be holding a lot of things inside himself.

Given the situation(especially if he had a hand in helping Lyanna elope)I can see how it might of been guilt that he was carrying.

If this does happen to be the case, then I hope that Benjen is the person that call tell Jon.

If Jon were told by anyone else, I doubt that he would believe it anyway.

I know that if I were in his shoes I wouldn't believe it either!

I think that the person that eventually tells Jon the truth, no matter what his parentage, is going to have to be a some what credible person.

Nobody else in Westeros would believe it otherwise either, if that was the way of it.

I'd like to see what Benjen's role in story will be, but If R+L=J turns out to be true, I think it would be either (spoiler) or Howland Reed who reveals the truth. Howland Reed is a strong possibility because he was with Ned when he went to the Tower of Joy and should know the truth of the matter.

Bran is another possibility because his greenseer abilities allow him to see into the past. Right now, he only seems to be limited to seeing events within the proximity of a weirwood, but that should change as his powers grow. He'll become virtually omniscient, and could be the key to a great number of the story's secrets. Of the two, I'm leaning closer towards Bran being the one who reveals the truth (whether, it's R+L=J or something else). Mainly because it's more dramatic that way. It's a way for GRRM to slowly unfold the mystery instead of the straightfoward explanation that someone who experienced it firsthand would offer. Bran could see visions, but they would have little context to him because he wasn't there and because of his youth. He'd have to piece things together to see the significance. As he did that things would become clear for the reader as well.

Of course, Reed has yet to make a debut and I could also see him revealing the truth while reminiscing in a Prologue or Epilogue POV chapter.

[Daughter of Dragons]

I'd like to see what Benjen's role in story will be, .....

The odds are pretty good that, whatever the truth, either Bran or Howland Reed will be the one to reveal the truth. I am leaning more toward Reed between the two of them. I only say that because there has got to be some reason that Reed has not been seen or heard from and there is also the fact that his kids have been gone quite awhile. I have been wondering, in light of the civil war in Westeros and the fact that he had no word from them for ages, why he hasn't been looking for them. Something is definately up in that situation, I think! I really can see having a POV chapter on Howland Reed. I think that would be a wonderful way to let us addicts in on the secret. :D

[kephv]

So I've read a few people post that they figured on R+L=J only from the TV show, without reading the books. I've seen seen it stated it was "obvious". My question - what on the show gives them this idea? The only thing regarding Jon's parentage I see is Ned's "I promise" which only means something if you read the books prior.

I'm pretty confused as to how those who watched the TV show only figured this out :) I can barely even recall Rhaeghar being mentioned and if I hadn't already read the books, I don't think I'd know who Rhaeghar even was.

They lie. There's absolutely nothing in the show that gives any hint toward that.

[Winterfell is Burning]

They lie. There's absolutely nothing in the show that gives any hint toward that.

No, I thought about Lyanna and Rhaegar before reading the books too. When Ned says to Robert the mother was a woman named Wylla, it was obviously a lie. And with Robert's obsession with killing Targaryens and no one knowing who the mother was, I though it might have been Lyanna. Although certainly the possibility she went willingly (though I'm not so sure about it after reading the books) never crossed my mind.

Reading the books made me sure of it, though.

[DirePenguin]

No, I thought about Lyanna and Rhaegar before reading the books too. When Ned says to Robert the mother was a woman named Wylla, it was obviously a lie. And with Robert's obsession with killing Targaryens and no one knowing who the mother was, I though it might have been Lyanna. Although certainly the possibility she went willingly (though I'm not so sure about it after reading the books) never crossed my mind.

Reading the books made me sure of it, though.

Really? The way the king treated Lyanna's brother and father made it sound like it really was a kidnap.

[alyanna]

Really? The way the king treated Lyanna's brother and father made it sound like it really was a kidnap.

remember Aerys was mad. What he did may not necessarlily have an explanation...

[CrypticWeirwood]

remember Aerys was mad. What he did may not necessarlily have an explanation...

They called him mad. He may simply have been arrogant and unreasonable.

But the Howard Hughs things is a bit of a madness tell, I wager.

[Gogossos]

R+L married and IMO there's not much room for debate on it. The KG issue is a fairly open and shut case.

I have another piece of circumstantial evidence, maybe it's been mentioned before, and it's based on the assumption that Lyanna was not a hypocrite.

“Robert will never keep to one bed,” she once told Ned as her reason of rejecting him. Now would this person then go on to become Rhaegar's mistress - the other woman? The only explanation for that would be rape or marriage and there's more evidence for marriage. Maybe Elia knew as well, I mean, her lady companion Ashara Dayne was in the vicinity at Starfall and I don't think the KG were the baby nursing types. Ashara's brother died for this "other woman". So there, circumstantial but evidence nonetheless.

[Ned'sHead]

Yes, and it's the "We swore a vow" that CrypticWeirwood quotes which makes it especially obvious. They swore a vow to guard the King. Not follow the orders of the dead Prince, who was never even King anyway and who they never vowed to obey, let alone after his death.

For some reason I assumed that line was in reference to a vow made to Rhaegar, but now that you put it that way, it's pretty clear that you're right.

The only vow the Kingsguard would make is to protect the king (duh). I always bought into the R+L=J theory, but this pretty much confirms it for me.

[Shaggydog Stark]

The only vow the Kingsguard would make is to protect the king (duh). I always bought into the R+L=J theory, but this pretty much confirms it for me.

This pretty much sums it up!

[Alia of the knife]

I think it is the most plausible theory, but it can still be complicated enough to make the back story interesting, as well as tragic.

I go back and forth with whether Lyanna would have gone willingly. I know people point to her "wolf blood," but I actually think that is what could make her most UNattainable due to the imagry of wildness and freedom, (at least in my mind).

Remember Robert asking Ned why he put her underground, rather than under a tree with the blue sky over her?(paraphrasing).

She may not have loved Robert, but did she love Rhaegar?

We have from reliable sources Rhaegar loved her, but no mention of her feelings which I find strange.

It doesn't have to be a POV of someone who knew her intimately, but Selmy, Lannister, and Connington who all remember Rhaegars POV, do not seem to mention Lyanna- it's as if it something is being deliberately not mentioned.

Surely, if it were mutual, more would have been said about her potentially, inappropriate behavior. I mean these guys have no reason to favor her,or protect her name.

We are treated to story after story of what a rockstar he is, and how both women AND apparently men want him, (to me, that is a potential red herring by Martin).

It would be ironic if the most unconventional girl in the Kingdom would be the One who would NOT want Rhaegar.

If that is the case, then I can see him using prophesy to justify taking her.

It doesn't have to make him an evil, bad person, but tragic.

Just a thought.

[Shaggydog Stark]

I think it is the most plausible theory, but it can still be complicated enough to make the back story interesting, as well as tragic.

I go back and forth with whether Lyanna would have gone willingly. I know people point to her "wolf blood," but I actually think that is what could make her most UNattainable due to the imagry of wildness and freedom, (at least in my mind).

Remember Robert asking Ned why he put her underground, rather than under a tree with the blue sky over her?(paraphrasing).

She may not have loved Robert, but did she love Rhaegar?

We have from reliable sources Rhaegar loved her, but no mention of her feelings which I find strange.

It doesn't have to be a POV of someone who knew her intimately, but Selmy, Lannister, and Connington who all remember Rhaegars POV, do not seem to mention Lyanna- it's as if it something is being deliberately not mentioned.

Surely, if it were mutual, more would have been said about her potentially, inappropriate behavior. I mean these guys have no reason to favor her,or protect her name.

We are treated to story after story of what a rockstar he is, and how both women AND apparently men want him, (to me, that is a potential red herring by Martin).

It would be ironic if the most unconventional girl in the Kingdom would be the One who would NOT want Rhaegar.

If that is the case, then I can see him using prophesy to justify taking her.

It doesn't have to make him an evil, bad person, but tragic.

Just a thought.

That could be the case. We know some marriages happen in Westeros under duress and are still considered marriages. The clear example is Tyrion and Sansa. It seems that as long as it is consumated it does not matter whether it was rape or not if they have said the words. So your argument is valid. If she was forced to marry Rhaegar and forced to have sex and then got pregnant, I guess the KG would still consider the child the legitimate heir after Aegon died. This of course just makes the whole thing more tragic like you said and I wonder what effect it will have on Jon should he ever discover the truth, if it did happen in this way.

[DirePenguin]

Is it just me, or is the Tower of Joy really sounds . . . like harem?

Anyway. It makes the most sense that Eddard would keep Jon's parentage a complete secret if his parents were really R+L. If Robert even heard a hint of it I'm pretty sure Jon would be hunted in an instant.

[The Shy Wolf]

I think GRRM originally planned for the R + L=J theory to be the correct one, but because so many people have figured it out, he might have changed it? Ashara Dayne perhaps?