R+L=J XXV

[TieN]

I'd like to direct your attention to this:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=eS5du3IxD4g

First of all let me take my hat off to the person who made it. It's great work.

It's taken off the book. I'd like to point out how they go through all the places the Kingsguard should be. Their duty is to protect the royal bloodline, the Targaryens, yet they stay with Lyanna. Ned counts all the places the Targaryens are known to be, the Trident - Rhaegar, King's Landing - Aerys, Dragonstone - Viserys and the queen. That's the locations of all the known Targaryens at the time. Since the Kingsguard are sworn to protect them, why aren't they there ? It can only be that, at the Tower of Joy there is someone of Targaryen blood. It could be baby Aegon, but that's doubtful as we're led to believe he was smuggled out by Varys, not by Rhaegar. The only one who it can be then is Rhaegar's son, most likely by Lyanna. The promise, Lyanna made Ned make can only be to protect the her newborn son.

For me, R+L=J is an undeniable truth. Martin likes to give little hints in his texts that could go unnoticed. I think this is one just like that.

[Umberto]

There is no denying that they are Jon's parents.

I mean cmon, Lyanna's last words to Ned were "promise me". What the hell could that mean other than keep Jon's identity a secret, with this and all the other clues I don't see how anything else can be the truth.

[Saerca Targaryen-Stark]

Personally, I believe R+L=J. There is just too much hinting that those are his true parents.. and it's the only thing that makes sense. If Aegon is truly a Targ, then John will make the third head of the dragon.. and I believe this is what is important to Jon's story.

If Jon is the third head, and Daenerys is TPTWP, that leaves Aegon as the rightful claimant to the Iron Throne (or at the very least the heir of Daenerys).

I never thought Jon's destiny was to aspire to rule the 7 Kingdoms.. I think his destiny lies in defeating the Others and saving Westeros in the process. He could become a ruler north of the Wall.. and be reunited with Bran, and/or Benjen Stark.. but that is my own wishful thinking.

I believe Wylla knows the truth of Jon's parentage.. and she is the one who will reveal it to him. As far as I know, she is the only one left alive that could possibly know. As his wet nurse, and being present in the Tower of Joy at the time of his birth, she was probably the one who delivered him and knew his father was Rhaegar.. so it makes sense that at some point she will tell Jon about it.

Please don't butcher me, guys.. I'm new here. Just my thoughts. :drunk:

[TieN]

Personally, I believe R+L=J. There is just too much hinting that those are his true parents.. and it's the only thing that makes sense. If Aegon is truly a Targ, then John will make the third head of the dragon.. and I believe this is what is important to Jon's story.

If Jon is the third head, and Daenerys is TPTWP, that leaves Aegon as the rightful claimant to the Iron Throne (or at the very least the heir of Daenerys).

I never thought Jon's destiny was to aspire to rule the 7 Kingdoms.. I think his destiny lies in defeating the Others and saving Westeros in the process. He could become a ruler north of the Wall.. and be reunited with Bran, and/or Benjen Stark.. but that is my own wishful thinking.

I believe Wylla knows the truth of Jon's parentage.. and she is the one who will reveal it to him. As far as I know, she is the only one left alive that could possibly know. As his wet nurse, and being present in the Tower of Joy at the time of his birth, she was probably the one who delivered him and knew his father was Rhaegar.. so it makes sense that at some point she will tell Jon about it.

Please don't butcher me, guys.. I'm new here. Just my thoughts. :drunk:

Howland Reed was present at the Tower of Joy and even saved Ned's live there. He's still alive. He knows the truth too. We haven't seen him in the books yet, but i'm sure we will.

When asked about him, Martin said he knows too much and it's too early to reveal him. Big clue there.

[Saerca Targaryen-Stark]

Howland Reed was present at the Tower of Joy and even saved Ned's live there. He's still alive. He knows the truth too. We haven't seen him in the books yet, but i'm sure we will.

When asked about him, Martin said he knows too much and it's too early to reveal him. Big clue there.

True.. but I wouldn't be too sure that Howland Reed knows the whole thing. Wylla probably assisted in Jon's birth, and may have been present when Lyanna was dying and demanding her promise from Ned. The books have said nothing about whether Ned and Lyanna were alone in the room..

And I just have a feeling that eventually Jon and Wylla are destined to meet. Not saying that he won't learn part of it from Howland Reed, which may be what sends him to seek Wylla out.. to get the whole truth.

[Dragonfish]

True.. but I wouldn't be too sure that Howland Reed knows the whole thing. Wylla probably assisted in Jon's birth, and may have been present when Lyanna was dying and demanding her promise from Ned. The books have said nothing about whether Ned and Lyanna were alone in the room..

The book says "they" found Ned clutching Lyanna's body, which to me implies that Ned was alone with her as she lay dying.

[ipsuel]

so which wet nurse was at winterfell? cat mentions that the wetnurse and jon were already there when she arrived from her dad's with robb in tow.... which wet nurse was that?

[Alia of the knife]

Personally, I believe R+L=J. There is just too much hinting that those are his true parents.. and it's the only thing that makes sense. If Aegon is truly a Targ, then John will make the third head of the dragon.. and I believe this is what is important to Jon's story.

If Jon is the third head, and Daenerys is TPTWP, that leaves Aegon as the rightful claimant to the Iron Throne (or at the very least the heir of Daenerys).

I never thought Jon's destiny was to aspire to rule the 7 Kingdoms.. I think his destiny lies in defeating the Others and saving Westeros in the process. He could become a ruler north of the Wall.. and be reunited with Bran, and/or Benjen Stark.. but that is my own wishful thinking.

I believe Wylla knows the truth of Jon's parentage.. and she is the one who will reveal it to him. As far as I know, she is the only one left alive that could possibly know. As his wet nurse, and being present in the Tower of Joy at the time of his birth, she was probably the one who delivered him and knew his father was Rhaegar.. so it makes sense that at some point she will tell Jon about it.

Please don't butcher me, guys.. I'm new here. Just my thoughts. :drunk:

For all my doubts about how they got together, I don't doubt Rhaegar loved Lyanna, and do believe that Jon is their son.

I too never thought Jon's destiny was to be King, (I don't think he'd want it), but perhaps be Aegons "enforcer" if you will- a super warrior.

Like I said, I go back and forth about Lyannas willingness to go with Rhaegar, because I mainly see her as a free "child" and unattainable by either man.

But, it doesn't mean I don't hope for the best.

[Alia of the knife]

I have a hard time imagining Ned saying that Lyanna's "attractiveness" and unwillingness to be taken are what led her to an early grave. Sounds a little too much like "blame the rape victim" to me, which is something I can't see Ned saying, given how much he abhors rape.

No one says that Jon is Lyanna's son either. We have to read between the lines to figure that out, and so too must we read between the lines in order to figure out that Lyanna loved Rhaegar (for instance, as Kadence pointed out, the fact that Lyanna was clutching the flowers that Rhaegar gave her strongly hints that she loved him). Besides, the only one in a position to know if she loved him or not was Ned, who of course is pretty tight-lipped about all things concerning Lyanna.

Were these the flowers Rhaegar gave her?

Was it the crown?

Or was it a bed strewn with the peddles of the flowers she loved?

[Dragonfish]

Were these the flowers Rhaegar gave her?

Was it the crown?

They were not the flowers that Rhaegar gave her at Harrenhal (as far as we know), but they were flowers that he brought her.

[Alia of the knife]

They were not the flowers that Rhaegar gave her at Harrenhal (as far as we know), but they were flowers that he brought her.

Oh okay.

I know I had read several posts claiming this was the crown from Harrenhal, so I was a littlle dubious.

[ipsuel]

lol my posts are generally ignored... but i really am curious which wetnurse was at winterfell... does anyone know?

[LadyMary]

lol my posts are generally ignored... but i really am curious which wetnurse was at winterfell... does anyone know?

I don't think it was ever said in the books. That may account for the non-response.

I'm not sure why it matters to the question of R+L=J, but we we have reason to believe Wylla was Jon's wetnurse at least for a while at least while they were traveling around in Dorne and at Starfall, and we can speculate that maybe Wylla traveled back with Jon to Winterfell, although that probably wasn't the case because wouldn't Catelyn have gotten word from the servants that Wylla was claiming to be Jon's mother?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think GRRM originally planned for the R + L=J theory to be the correct one, but because so many people have figured it out, he might have changed it? Ashara Dayne perhaps?

No, absolutely NOT. Someone asked him about this, if I recall, and he said he'd make no changes. It'd be such a copout if he did.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The book says "they" found Ned clutching Lyanna's body, which to me implies that Ned was alone with her as she lay dying.

I'll do you one better: By the time "they" found Ned, Ned and Howland were the only survivors of the fight. If Ned was alone with Lyanna's body, who else, along with Howland, made up the "they"? I think it was the wet nurse/midwife brought in from Starfall and later included in the whole plot: Wylla.

I'll also use this space to reaffirm my position that Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly and was not raped.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Oh okay.

I know I had read several posts claiming this was the crown from Harrenhal, so I was a littlle dubious.

No, those flowers would've been long gone. Basically the flowers are a motif that's used to link Rhaegar, Lyanna and Jon without coming out and saying it plainly. Rhaegar gives her blue roses at Harrenhal and this same type of rose adorns the room where she dies. Dany sees a blue rose growing in a wall of ice. It's all there.

[ipsuel]

I don't think it was ever said in the books. That may account for the non-response.

I'm not sure why it matters to the question of R+L=J, but we we have reason to believe Wylla was Jon's wetnurse at least for a while at least while they were traveling around in Dorne and at Starfall, and we can speculate that maybe Wylla traveled back with Jon to Winterfell, although that probably wasn't the case because wouldn't Catelyn have gotten word from the servants that Wylla was claiming to be Jon's mother?

I guess it may not matter, but you touched on my very thought -- which was: Was Wylla at Winterfell? It didnt seem so, so that means there is another woman who was acting wetnurse to him... which could very well be someone who knows the truth.

[You Jape Ser!]

I just want to start by saying I do believe R+L=J, I don't want to take any undeserved flack over that. Saying that, it seems to me the Tower of Joy thing still has a few holes in it.

If the three that went there were protecting the heir, surerly the whole of the KG knew about it given that

1.'KG have no secrets from their brothers' I'm sure that is said a few times.

2. Surely the KG that didn't know would be curious as to why the plan was 'OK 3 go to the Trident, 1 protect the king and the other 3 go to a keep in the middle of nowhere for no reason *wink*'

So if all the KG did know including Selmy, why after being stripped by Joff would he go on his quest for the 'rightful heir' of the 7K to Meereen rather than the Wall if he knew the truth?

Not that this little point takes away from the overwhelming arguments in favour of the general opinion but just curious as to what people think?

On a tenuously related note...

I think it would make for a better story if Rhaegar had carried her off to knock her up, everyone is posting their little view of true love 'oh I think R&L had cute nicknames for each other and sent ravens back and forth with *you hang up first*. I find the best characters are the unpredictable ones with questionable morality but I'm pretty sure my shout of Theon as one of the best would be outvoted by all the Jon lovers who is there favorite char because he is the kind of guy you would want to babysit your kids. At least it would be if the Jon lovers wern't

too busy drawing fan art of R,L&J having a picnic entitled 'If there was no war'. Rant over.

[Dragonfish]

I just want to start by saying I do believe R+L=J, I don't want to take any undeserved flack over that. Saying that, it seems to me the Tower of Joy thing still has a few holes in it.

If the three that went there were protecting the heir, surerly the whole of the KG knew about it given that

1.'KG have no secrets from their brothers' I'm sure that is said a few times.

2. Surely the KG that didn't know would be curious as to why the plan was 'OK 3 go to the Trident, 1 protect the king and the other 3 go to a keep in the middle of nowhere for no reason *wink*'

So if all the KG did know including Selmy, why after being stripped by Joff would he go on his quest for the 'rightful heir' of the 7K to Meereen rather than the Wall if he knew the truth?

Not that this little point takes away from the overwhelming arguments in favour of the general opinion but just curious as to what people think?

Selmy says in ADWD that Rhaegar did not trust Selmy with his secrets as much as he trusted Arthur Dayne (or something like that). I think that's a pretty good indication that whatever Rhaegar was doing at the ToJ, he didn't want Selmy to know (especially if he didn't want his father to find out where Lyanna was).

I think it would make for a better story if Rhaegar had carried her off to knock her up

I disagree. The story is more simplistic and less morally ambiguous if Rhaegar was as bad as Robert thought he was. After all, if he really did kidnap and rape Lyanna, then the war was almost completely justified in order to get rid of the evil Targaryens. But if Rhaegar really was as good as people describe him, then his death becomes one of the tragic byproducts of the war.

[You Jape Ser!]

1.

Selmy says in ADWD that Rhaegar did not trust Selmy with his secrets as much as he trusted Arthur Dayne (or something like that). I think that's a pretty good indication that whatever Rhaegar was doing at the ToJ, he didn't want Selmy to know (especially if he didn't want his father to find out where Lyanna was).

2.I disagree. The story is more simplistic and less morally ambiguous if Rhaegar was as bad as Robert thought he was. After all, if he really did kidnap and rape Lyanna, then the war was almost completely justified in order to get rid of the evil Targaryens. But if Rhaegar really was as good as people describe him, then his death becomes one of the tragic byproducts of the war.

1.I guess so... That kind of covers it.. Sort of... I did read what you quoted but it only sort of addresses both points 1 & 2.

2.I think characters are more simplistic (and unrealistic) if they do the 'correct' thing all the time (Stark-bot is the correct term I believe). Being somewhere between Ned and Ramsey on the morality spectrum is human. And just to add weight to my argument, someone compared R&L to a Harry Potter storyline a few pages ago... Are you really siding with him?!!? JK