Antonius Pius Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Renly is not the type to manipulate or molest. I'm convinced that everything they did was with Loras' full and conscious consent. You're right that we know almost nothing about the how-s or the when-s, but judging from their personalities and their genuine affection towards each other, I truly don't think that there was anything messed up. Renly is exactly the type to manipulate. All he does in King's Landing and once he's claimed his kingdom is scheme and backstab, why would he be above manipulating a youth he has affection for? Besides, they're both part of the big "make a fool of Margaery-show", with them being the actual participants in a marriage that formally includes Margaery, but leaves her on the sidelines nonetheless. (Though I have to admit we don't know everything about the dynamics involved there.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinso Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Renly is exactly the type to manipulate. All he does in King's Landing and once he's claimed his kingdom is scheme and backstab, why would he be above manipulating a youth he has affection for? Besides, they're both part of the big "make a fool of Margaery-show", with them being the actual participants in a marriage that formally includes Margaery, but leaves her on the sidelines nonetheless. (Though I have to admit we don't know everything about the dynamics involved there.)Renly is not really a schemer. Sure, he acts against the Lannisters, but that's just fighting fire with fire. He was absolutely straight (no pun intended) when dealing with Ned.As for the "make a fool of Margaery" thing, when did you dream that up? Margaery knew all along what was going on and was perfectly comfortable with it. Nobody made a fool out of her, and if anything, she's more into political scheming than Loras and maybe even than Renly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mor2 Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 I'm completely fine with no description of gay sex in the books.same here, I hardly excited about GRRM straight sex scenes and shudder at thought of him attempting a gay one. (unless maybe he is gay, which would explain his straight sex scenes)other than that, those are hardly my top pick for new POV's and gay sex is not my cup of tea, so it would have been a skipped chapter for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Girl in Winterfell Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 I would have been very happy to read a Renly POV and I would have loved a sex scenebetwee the two but I doubt Martin could have made it good. As for Margaery, Ihave no doubt that she knew everything that was going on. Loras and Margaery are very close and I am sure she knows about his sexulity and what was going on with Renly. And she seems to be very into the game of thrones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonius Pius Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Renly is not really a schemer. Sure, he acts against the Lannisters, but that's just fighting fire with fire. He was absolutely straight (no pun intended) when dealing with Ned. No, he doesn't. He asks Ned to join his plan to seize Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella. He doesn't say that he's going to rebel along with the Tyrells. He isn't as perfidious as the Lannisters, but he's plotting away nicely. Remember that he had Margaery set up for Robert's new queen at first? As for the "make a fool of Margaery" thing, when did you dream that up? Margaery knew all along what was going on and was perfectly comfortable with it. Nobody made a fool out of her, and if anything, she's more into political scheming than Loras and maybe even than Renly. OK, "made a fool of" is the wrong to phrase it. Sham marriage then. The point was that the marriage was a ruse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garlan Tyrell Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 I had two problems with the sex scene in the show.1) It completely messed up both Renly and Loras' characterizations. Renly is not a weak-willed wuss who needs coercing from his boyfriend, and Loras was made to seem too scheming.2) Loras only shaved one armpit... :dunce: LOL!! This is the highlight of this thread.Here's my 2 cents into this conversation. I particuarly didn't care about the Sex act between Loras an Renly in the TV Show (really? grossed out? Twins grabbing their fluffy bits didn't gross you out enough?, have the whoring 101 class by littlefinger, then) except for their intimate conversation where Loras cones out as some manipulative queen bitch and Renly as a wimpy little brother. As to homosexual sex scenes... I wouldn't have minded. But, as I have admitted in other threads, sex scenes are generally not GRRM's strongest talent as a writer. I wouldn't want to read another myrish swamp or a fat, pink mast, or something like that. I also think that somehow, Renly is being idealized, and maybe Loras could have been in love with him, but what little we've seen of Renly, he strikes me too much as a guy that enjoys his good time and Loras could be one of his good times (Even Taena argues that Renly and Margaery consumated the marriage after their bedding). Then again, the relationship between Renly and Loras (as it is in the books) seems to be one of the healthiest and the purer we've seen, so maybe it wouldn't have been as god-awful as the swamp or the menstrual twincest next to Joff's corpse. But just maybe. That's still GRRM we're talking about... I have to disagree with a part of this one, see my response above. Also, may I add something about the Big Elephant in the room? I for one part, have no interest in reading anything aboout Baratheon sex scenes. Robert pounding nameless whores, Renly (who is such a minor character) didn't need more book time, and PLEASE not Stannis. The last thing I need in my life is the detailing of the making of those creepy shadowbabies with Melissandre (if the part about them getting freaky to make them was true). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticWeirwood Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 When you find people uncomfortable with scenes portraying consensual sex between two men, these are bound to be either religious zealots or incredibly insecure boys full of prejudices and paranoias. Considering all the other things that Martin does that make people uncomfortable, this is nothing. He definitely should include gay sex scenes to rattle their little cages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinso Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 No, he doesn't. He asks Ned to join his plan to seize Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella. He doesn't say that he's going to rebel along with the Tyrells. He isn't as perfidious as the Lannisters, but he's plotting away nicely. Remember that he had Margaery set up for Robert's new queen at first?Those were his plans at the time. I'm pretty sure he didn't intend to crown himself up until Ned threw his proposition in his face. Such plans can often change in a whim depending on the circumstances. As for setting up Margaery for Robert's new queen, yes, that was what I meant by fighting fire with fire. The Lannisters were self-serving and pursued their own political interests, so Renly had the full right to try and do the same. That's the essence of the Game, after all. OK, "made a fool of" is the wrong to phrase it. Sham marriage then. The point was that the marriage was a ruse.Ruse? Depends on how you define ruse. It was a political alliance, not a love story. In any case, Margaery was in on it. -- I also think that somehow, Renly is being idealized, and maybe Loras could have been in love with him, but what little we've seen of Renly, he strikes me too much as a guy that enjoys his good time and Loras could be one of his good times (Even Taena argues that Renly and Margaery consumated the marriage after their bedding).Yes, Renly does sound as a guy who likes to have a good time, but he also is genuinely close to the entire Tyrell family, not only Loras. So, I doubt it was a one-time fling that left young Loras heartbroken or anything like that. And, call it a gut feeling, but he just seems like a nice guy to me. Sure, I may be wrong, but there is nothing that - to me, at least - indicates that he would manipulate and/or molest a 15 years old boy against his will without returning the affection. Yes, in all probability he seduced him, but since when that's some horrible sin? Again, in a world where a heterosexual husband has the full legal right to rape his wife. As to the bedding, Margaery's family's swore that she was a virgin when they married her to Joffrey and, later, Tommen. And that's the kind of a lie that can be easily noticed when the times comes, after all. And not only that, even Stannis doubted that Renly slept with his wife. Also, may I add something about the Big Elephant in the room? I for one part, have no interest in reading anything aboout Baratheon sex scenes. Robert pounding nameless whores, Renly (who is such a minor character) didn't need more book time, and PLEASE not Stannis. The last thing I need in my life is the detailing of the making of those creepy shadowbabies with Melissandre (if the part about them getting freaky to make them was true).A sex scene between Stannis and Melisandre would probably be comedy gold... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted September 28, 2011 Author Share Posted September 28, 2011 Yes, Renly does sound as a guy who likes to have a good time, but he also is genuinely close to the entire Tyrell family, not only Loras. So, I doubt it was a one-time fling that left young Loras heartbroken or anything like that. And, call it a gut feeling, but he just seems like a nice guy to me. Sure, I may be wrong, but there is nothing that - to me, at least - indicates that he would manipulate and/or molest a 15 years old boy against his will without returning the affection. Yes, in all probability he seduced him, but since when that's some horrible sin? Again, in a world where a heterosexual husband has the full legal right to rape his wife. Gotta agree with you here Rinso. Even though we know very little of the relationship, we can surmise from the bits and pieces that this was consensual on both parts and not manipulative. Renly chooses to be with Loras on the eve of the battle with Stannis, (which says a lot about their closeness) and we have Loras' own admission to Sansa about when the "sun sets". Marg also knows what is going on - maybe she wasn't comfortable with it in the beginning or maybe she was gung ho. Btw, do we know if GRRM plans to introduce any new POVs in TWOW - if so we might still get a Marg or Loras - and we may get the sex scene described in someone's memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garlan Tyrell Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 we have Loras' own admission to Sansa about when the "sun sets". Marg also knows what is going on - maybe she wasn't comfortable with it in the beginning or maybe she was gung ho. I thought the sun setting conversation was with either Tyrion or Jaime. Anyhow, what I meant with the whole Renly + Loras business is not that it was a one time thing, but more that Renly is yet another polyamorous lover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted September 28, 2011 Author Share Posted September 28, 2011 I thought the sun setting conversation was with either Tyrion or Jaime. Anyhow, what I meant with the whole Renly + Loras business is not that it was a one time thing, but more that Renly is yet another polyamorous lover. Why would you say that? if anything Marg is the real polyamorous one, in the sense that she's the odd man out, and we have yet to find out if she was really and truly a virgin. And do we have other examples of polyamory in the text? Rhaegar/Elia/Lyanna perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garlan Tyrell Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Why would you say that? if anything Marg is the real polyamorous one, in the sense that she's the odd man out, and we have yet to find out if she was really and truly a virgin. And do we have other examples of polyamory in the text? Rhaegar/Elia/Lyanna perhaps? Robert, much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headtrip_honey Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Robert, much? Polyamory =/= just sleeping around a lot. I would also say that Rhaegar's relationships with Lyanna and Elia aren't examples of polyamory, if he felt no real relationship with Elia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted September 28, 2011 Author Share Posted September 28, 2011 Polyamory involves the consent of all parties involved so it doesn't equate to sleeping around at all. If Elia was cool with Rhaegar and Lyanna then yes, it qualifies as polyamory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garlan Tyrell Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Sorry... Love triangle is what I meant. Taena to Cersei in AFFC: "When she wed Lord Renly at Highgarden, I helped disrobe him for the bedding. His lordship was a well-made man, and lusty. I saw the proof when we tumbled him into the wedding bed where his bride awaited him as naked as her name day, blushing prettily beneath the coverlets. Ser Loras had carried her up the steps himself. Margaery may say that the marriage was never consummated, that Lord Renly had drunk too much wine at the wedding feast, but I promise you, the bit between his legs was anything but weary when last I saw it.” I think Renly is bisexual and Loras is gay and completely in love with him.... So in love, he doesn't care the guy beds his sister. This doesn't mean Renly doesn't love Loras, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headtrip_honey Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Polyamory involves the consent of all parties involved so it doesn't equate to sleeping around at all. If Elia was cool with Rhaegar and Lyanna then yes, it qualifies as polyamory. Exactly. I should note that I more meant, Rhaegar running off with Lyanna does not mean HE is polyamorous, if his relationship with Elia was platonic. Her consent is clearly a big part of this, but even if she consented and he didn't truly have feelings for her? Still not polyamorous. More like stuck in a loveless marriage and your wife lets you take pleasure elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woman of War Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 The sunset conversation took place with Tyrion and it warmed my heart for both: Tyrion's empathy and Loras for being one of the few characters who is honestly and truly in love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerys Faithful Servant Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Sorry... Love triangle is what I meant. Taena to Cersei in AFFC: "When she wed Lord Renly at Highgarden, I helped disrobe him for the bedding. His lordship was a well-made man, and lusty. I saw the proof when we tumbled him into the wedding bed where his bride awaited him as naked as her name day, blushing prettily beneath the coverlets. Ser Loras had carried her up the steps himself. Margaery may say that the marriage was never consummated, that Lord Renly had drunk too much wine at the wedding feast, but I promise you, the bit between his legs was anything but weary when last I saw it.” I think Renly is bisexual and Loras is gay and completely in love with him.... So in love, he doesn't care the guy beds his sister. This doesn't mean Renly doesn't love Loras, though. Well for one what Taena says to Cersei has to be taken with a grain of salt and if she ever shows up in King's Landing again I don't think it will be as Cersei's "friend". As far as Renly being all worked up and Margaery being naked in the bed, I seriously doubt the latter had anything to do with the former. The fact that Loras took her up their himself to me suggests that is exactly who Renly was looking forward to meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted September 28, 2011 Author Share Posted September 28, 2011 Sorry... Love triangle is what I meant. Taena to Cersei in AFFC: "When she wed Lord Renly at Highgarden, I helped disrobe him for the bedding. His lordship was a well-made man, and lusty. I saw the proof when we tumbled him into the wedding bed where his bride awaited him as naked as her name day, blushing prettily beneath the coverlets. Ser Loras had carried her up the steps himself. Margaery may say that the marriage was never consummated, that Lord Renly had drunk too much wine at the wedding feast, but I promise you, the bit between his legs was anything but weary when last I saw it.” I think Renly is bisexual and Loras is gay and completely in love with him.... So in love, he doesn't care the guy beds his sister. This doesn't mean Renly doesn't love Loras, though. Renly could be gay and just doing what he had to do :) which is the sense I got from his conversation with Stannis when they met in the field - Stannis was attempting to mock the marriage because he knows that Renly really is gay, and Renly is smug because he knows that Stannis is underestimating what he will do to ensure that his kingship is safe. Something ironically that Stannis - the hetero - is unwilling to do with his own wife to produce another heir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted September 28, 2011 Author Share Posted September 28, 2011 And for the record, I do believe Marg is not a virgin- And I don't think Renly was her only partner either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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