Sandor Clegane 6- Read the Mod Warning before you post

[littlespider]

Sandor Clegane's desertion during the Battle of the Blackwater that will be the most significant determinant upon his story going forward. I don't see any getting around that, plot wise.

Agreed here. He's got a couple alibis to support his innocence regarding Saltpans--though it's totally possible that nobody will care about these and/or won't believe them.

But he's considered an oathbreaker and a deserter for abandoning his Kingsguard post. And I suspect that this desertion is on par with desertion from the Night's Watch, in terms of punishment.

[brashcandy]

There is a moment in ASOS when Sansa hears talk of how the Hound turned craven during the battle and she thinks to herself that this isn't true, that she knows he was afraid of fire. And Tyrion also knows the real reason too. It's quite possible that we could see Tyrion recommending Sandor for some type of service, since he doesn't seem to have the same hatred that the Hound feels for him; and there's also Sansa, who will probably get some position of power and could help to clarify why it was that he deserted the battle.

Sandor was part of the KG but he also never said the vows, so that could also be a mitigating factor in his favour. I would like to see him and Barristan team up actually....

[Été]

Sandor was part of the KG but he also never said the vows, so that could also be a mitigating factor in his favour. I would like to see him and Barristan team up actually....

That would be amazing. I wonder how our dear dignified Ser Grandfather would react to him in general, actually. Nobody in KL seemed to have much respect for him except as a fighter. Would he resent Clegane for precipitating his dismissal?

[Hound's She-wolf]

That would be amazing. I wonder how our dear dignified Ser Grandfather would react to him in general, actually. Nobody in KL seemed to have much respect for him except as a fighter. Would he resent Clegane for precipitating his dismissal?

I agree that I'd like to see them meet up, and even better, team up, but how would that happen? And why? Why would Sandor leave the QI to find Dany or Barristan?

[brashcandy]

That would be amazing. I wonder how our dear dignified Ser Grandfather would react to him in general, actually. Nobody in KL seemed to have much respect for him except as a fighter. Would he resent Clegane for precipitating his dismissal?

I could see Barristan being willing to work with him and not being resentful because he knows that the Lannisters wanted to get rid of him period, and freeing up his space to bring in Sandor was an added bonus. Also, Barristan has had some regrets over his service too. He feels that he should have done more to stop Mad Aerys and maybe what happened to Ned as well. He may feel as though he is somewhat in the debt of the Stark children, and if Sansa recommends Sandor... then some teaming up could work :) My thoughts are that they could restructure the whole knighthood system in Westeros and the KG - taking away that absurd "total loyality to the King" bit and bringing back the honour and the valour.

I agree that I'd like to see them meet up, and even better, team up, but how would that happen? And why? Why would Sandor leave the QI to find Dany or Barristan?

Hmm, i confess i have no idea really. There are so many possibilities. My fav theory is that it'll happen through Sansa. She'll be the one to interact with Dany first and Sandor will get his intro via her.

[Mr.Blonde]

since he doesn't seem to have the same hatred that the Hound feels for him;

Thanks for reminding me.I always wondered what is that all about,Sandor's irrational hatred for Tyrion.I want to say that Sandor blames Tyrion for the wildfire,but I think he expressed hatred for Tyrion even before that.Always made me curious.I should think that Sandor would have a little more sympathy for a fellow misunderstood 'freak'.

[Susan Delgado]

Thanks for reminding me.I always wondered what is that all about,Sandor's irrational hatred for Tyrion.I want to say that Sandor blames Tyrion for the wildfire,but I think he expressed hatred for Tyrion even before that.Always made me curious.I should think that Sandor would have a little more sympathy for a fellow misunderstood 'freak'.

I suspect Sandor hates him because of what happened to Tysha. Maybe Sandor saw the whole thing and has been disgusted with Tyrion ever since.

[White Fang]

I suspect Sandor hates him because of what happened to Tysha. Maybe Sandor saw the whole thing and has been disgusted with Tyrion ever since.

That's always been my impression, since even if he was at court at the time (not sure where this fits on timeline) he'd still have heard about it from all the other Lannister men at KL.

[1234567]

If and when there is a change of leadership in King's Landing it may not matter that he left the King's guard as it had become a joke anyway (what with knights being dismissed from it etc) and also Joff wasn't the rightful King.

The Saltpans is a problem but if the High Septon is given info to clear his name it maybe easier for him to return to some sort of life, especially if he is still a useful fighter to have on your side. After all Jaime is still trotting around despite being the Kingslayer and Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch managed to carry on with their lives after the Elia, Aegon and Rheanys incident. So long as he stays away from the Crownlands and Riverlands he maybe fine.

Also when the Others final show up (probably three pages from the end of the final book, with a bottle of wine, an apology and a story about car trouble) and Dany finally lands in Westeros, the Saltpans may fade into insignificance compared to all the chaos that will ensue. If Sandor plays a part on the winning side, then he maybe fine.

[brashcandy]

And he never said the vows, Rapsie. This is what Cersei and Joff were extremely negligent on - really he had no absolute loyalty to the King because he never swore to do so.

[Gillio]

didn't he refuse to be knighted?

[littlespider]

didn't he refuse to be knighted?

This was my impression; he refused to say knightly vows. I always assumed that the official Kingsguard swearing in bs happened offscreen.

[LittleDragon]

Maybe it will be his chance to survive the accusations because of BWB. At the end we will find that he was the cleverest player of the game of thrones :-)

[Été]

Thanks for reminding me.I always wondered what is that all about,Sandor's irrational hatred for Tyrion.I want to say that Sandor blames Tyrion for the wildfire,but I think he expressed hatred for Tyrion even before that.Always made me curious.I should think that Sandor would have a little more sympathy for a fellow misunderstood 'freak'.

He encounters Tyrion at Winterfell, at the tourney for Joffrey's name-day, and after he saves Sansa from the mob; every time, he's rather contemptuous of Tyrion, but it could just be macho posturing - I'm not sure who exactly Sandor is sworn and therefore whether or not he actually has to take orders from Tyrion. My suspicion is that he doesn't, technically.

Maybe it will be his chance to survive the accusations because of BWB. At the end we will find that he was the cleverest player of the game of thrones :-)

. I bet there's a proper law somewhere that only knights can be in the KG, rendering his oath invalid. Plus, he was sworn in without the consent or presence of the Lord Commander and there has to be a rule about that. But regardless of the legality of his appointment to the KG, he's still a deserter: he abandoned his post in the midst of battle and that can only damage his standing. It's only the infamy earned at Saltpans that makes his desertion seem like a secondary concern.

I did find it interesting that Jaime, when leafing through the White Book, makes a mental note to record the "short, bloody service" of Sandor Clegane. Was it that bloody? Apart from the mob and the BWB, where he certainly wasn't the only KG fighting.

[CrypticWeirwood]

I'd add that now Sandor - unless he's officially attained, which is likely but we haven't witnessed it as if it never crossed anyone's mind - is the de jure ruler of the Clegane lands and keep.

He doesn’t need to be subject to formal attainder to forfeit his claims. Sandor was given his white cloak by Joffrey. Just as with the black, the white cloak bars inheritance. Were it otherwise, Jaime would now be lord of Casterly Rock. And he is not.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

That's always been my impression, since even if he was at court at the time (not sure where this fits on timeline) he'd still have heard about it from all the other Lannister men at KL.

This doesn't make much sense to me, to be honest. The Hound doesn't generally give a crap about innocent commonfolk being harmed on the orders of lords. See: Mycah. Why should he care about Tysha?

I didn't notice an irrational/blinding hatred of Tyrion coming from The Hound anyway, but I don't pay as much attention to him as you all, so perhaps I missed it.

ETA: I think that Sandor would have been niot much more than a child at the time, in any case (since, IIRC, The Hound is ~27 and Tyrion is ~33 (?) in GoT. Therefore, Sandor would have been like 7 when Tysha was raped. I doubt he'd have heard about it until years later if at all.

[Été]

This doesn't make much sense to me, to be honest. The Hound doesn't generally give a crap about innocent commonfolk being harmed on the orders of lords. See: Mycah. Why should he care about Tysha?

I didn't notice an irrational/blinding hatred of Tyrion coming from The Hound anyway, but I don't pay as much attention to him as you all, so perhaps I missed it.

ETA: I think that Sandor would have been niot much more than a child at the time, in any case (since, IIRC, The Hound is ~27 and Tyrion is ~33 (?) in GoT. Therefore, Sandor would have been like 7 when Tysha was raped. I doubt he'd have heard about it until years later if at all.

Actually, Tyrion is younger than the Hound; he would have been about 17 when the whole Tysha thing happened and serving House Lannister at that point. For all his crap about "the gods made the weak for the strong to play with" (or whatever the line is), he didn't like seeing Sansa being beaten. His unhealthy interest in Sansa is almost certainly a contributing factor in speaking up rather than just disapproving in silence, but I find it difficult to imagine he'd be entirely indifferent to the gang-rape of another innocent. YMMV of course.

[Datepalm]

As best I can recall, Tyrion is 25 or so in GOT, the hound about the same. (Unless i'm getting it wrong...Gregor was 17 during the sack, making him 31 in GOT, and six years older than the Hound. Jaime and Cercei are 33, and Tyrion 7 or 8 years younger.)

[Été]

As best I can recall, Tyrion is 25 or so in GOT, the hound about the same. (Unless i'm getting it wrong...Gregor was 17 during the sack, making him 31 in GOT, and six years older than the Hound. Jaime and Cercei are 33, and Tyrion 7 or 8 years younger.)

Jaime and Cersei are about the same age as Gregor - all 17 when KL fell. The Hound told Sansa he's five years younger than Gregor i.e. 12 at the Sack, and Tyrion would have been 9 (he mentions being 8 when the war first broke out.)

So at the start of AGoT the older siblings are all 32, Sandor is 27 and Tyrion is 24 - by the time we resume play in The Winds of Winter, about three years will have passed since then.

[littlespider]

He encounters Tyrion at Winterfell, at the tourney for Joffrey's name-day, and after he saves Sansa from the mob; every time, he's rather contemptuous of Tyrion, but it could just be macho posturing - I'm not sure who exactly Sandor is sworn and therefore whether or not he actually has to take orders from Tyrion. My suspicion is that he doesn't, technically.

+1

I tend to take quite a lot of his RAR ANGRY I AM BAMF AND OTHERS WEAK as a type of macho posturing, actually.

He doesn’t need to be subject to formal attainder to forfeit his claims. Sandor was given his white cloak by Joffrey. Just as with the black, the white cloak bars inheritance. Were it otherwise, Jaime would now be lord of Casterly Rock. And he is not.

Yes. The Clegane lands will be forfeit to the Crown or Casterly Rock, where they may very well be bequeathed to another family. Any ideas here? One of my first guesses would be the Kettleblacks but their rep is probably stained by the fallout from Cersei's trial, yes? My guess is that even if Sandor had inherited, he wouldn't be interested in going back there.

I didn't notice an irrational/blinding hatred of Tyrion coming from The Hound anyway, but I don't pay as much attention to him as you all, so perhaps I missed it.

Weeellll, Sandor does say he should have killed him years ago right before he flees KL, and later says he wants to dip him in wildfire and let him burn. I think for the first, he's pissed that Tyrion shamed him at the Mud Gate, and the second, he's just learned that Tyrion married Sansa. (Besides these two instances he seems to just be macho-posturing, as Été states above.) What's interesting as well is that Tyrion is the only POV who has not heard the brazier-face melty story who picks up on Sandor's fear of fire.

One of my theories as to why he was especially upset at Tyrion marrying Sansa was that (in addition to reasons that we're avoiding here for the moment) Sandor had heard about the Tysha incident, and assumed because of that that Sansa would be subject to similar horrific treatment at Tyrion's hands.

So Sandor would have been around 16 at the time of the Tysha disaster? Let's hope he was serving somewhere else, or was already in KL, and not in Tywin's garrison.

Have any other characters besides Jaime and Tywin indicated that they know of Tysha/Tyrion marriage? (Besides those Tyrion has told himself.)