[ADwD Spoilers] A Daenerys Character Arc Reread

[Alexia]

PSA: Please note that this thread will contain spoilers throughout ADWD. If you haven't read that far, please read no further.

First, I will say what a pleasure it is to read AGOT. The prose is clean, direct, and to the point. No misuse of wroth, no half-understood archaic words, none of this “mine own” (which drives me up a wall), no distraction from the story.

Second, I almost forgot how compelling a character Daenerys is in AGOT. MyDogisNamedDanerys and I are doing the reread together, taking turns recapping chapters, with MDIND as a big fan of Daenerys and a much more neutral Alexia. Since I haven’t done a complete character read of Daenerys yet, I’m pretty pleased to be doing this so I can keep up with MDIND in the ADWD forum!

RECAP

The chapter opens with Daenerys getting a gift of a beautiful dress, to which she reacts with confusion and fear by asking if it is really hers. It seems that she hasn’t ever had beautiful clothes appropriate to her status before. It then proceeds to note that she and Viserys have only been in Illyrio’s household for about six months. So apparently, Illyrio and Varys made their plans, immediately brought them into the household, and then began making arrangements for the marriage to Drogo.

The Isle of Faces was mentioned here, and I just wanted to express a hope that we see it eventually. I don’t think we’ve seen it yet… have we?

In here, it indicates that Viserys was eight when he fled KL with his pregnant mother. Now I feel really sorry for him. I had it in my head that he was four (thanks again for doing this reread with me, MDIND!). So he is plenty old enough to remember Rhaegar, Rhaenys and Aegon, his mother and father, and so on. Poor kid – that would really screw someone up.

It also notes that Viserys tells Daenerys that the lords Lannister and Stark are responsible for sacking KL. I find this very significant – when Ned arrived, did his force participate in the Sack? It seems very possible, since it would have been underway when he arrived and it would have been hard to clamp down on his army. Any commentary on this?

The book notes that when Ser Willem Darry died, he had a hot, moist, sweet, sickly odor. It struck me that perhaps he died of untreated diabetes? I’ve heard that it can cause a sweet odor… However, she only vaguely remembers Ser Willem so she must have left the house when she was 5 or 6. She and Viserys have been traveling the Free Cities as paupers ever since, dependent on charity. While Aegon was getting his kingly education.

At first the magisters and archons and merchant princes were pleased to welcome the last Targaryens to their homes and tables, but as the years passed and the Usurper continued to sit upon the Iron Throne, doors closed and their lives grew meaner. Years past they had been forced to sell their last few treasurers, and now even the coin they had gotten from Mother’s crown had gone. In the alleys and wine sinks of Pentos, they called her brother “the beggar king.” Dany did not want to know what they called her.

A significant quote. How does this fit with the idea that Illyrio and Varys had plans for Daenerys and Viserys? And while I agree with someone who said that sending them to the Dothraki is a pretty elaborate murder attempt – what was the real reason they were sent to the Dothraki?

I noticed that Viserys taught her that it is never too hot for a Targaryen. Poor kid gets slammed all the time for not being a “real dragon” so I thought I’d point this out.

Slaves get her ready for the meeting with Drogo and one girl (Illyrio’s favorite) sings Drogo’s praises. I am pretty sure Illyrio scripted her. When they tell her that she looks like a princess, she thinks back on the slave’s words that Drogo is so rich that his slaves wear golden collars.

Hey! Illyrio is a worshipper of the Red God! Is this significant in any way?

“Are you sure that Khal Drogo likes his women this young?”

“She has had her blood. She is old enough for the khal,” Illyrio told him, not for the first time. “Look at her. That silver-gold hair, those purple eyes… she is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt, no doubt… and highborn, daughter of the old king, sister to the new, she cannot fail to entrance our Drogo.” When he released her hand, Daenerys found herself trembling.

“I suppose,” her brother said doubtfully. “The savages have queer tastes. Boys, horses, sheep…”

I just had to quote this. People constantly seem to think that these early marriages are the norm in Westerosi culture. This makes it very plain that Viserys considers her too young to marry (and just doesn’t care because he’s a jerk) and that an attraction to young girls is not necessarily looked upon in a favorable way. Also, the chapter ends with Viserys telling his sister that he’d make her fuck all 40,000 men, and their horses too, if it got him the khalasar so… yeah.

Very significantly, Viserys has not been trained on how to use a sword! He has also never killed anyone at the age of 21… unlike Jaime Lannister, Ned Stark, Robert Baratheon, Sandor Clegane, Robb Stark, Garlan Tyrell, Loras Tyrell, need I continue? I cannot believe that Illyrio and Varys had any other plans for this man other than for him to die. And they left Daenerys with him… but I digress. Illyrio smirks when Viserys says he’ll kill Jaime Lannister himself. Die in a fire, Illyrio. Maybe if Viserys was getting some of that kingly education that Aegon is getting, on how to use a sword, instead of being used and thrown away, he’d have a shot at it.

Cool! A Dothraki Unsullied! Also, I note that Illyrio wears heavy perfume. We meet Ser Jorah here, he has been deposited with the Dothraki by Varys for some reason. This is interesting. Also, MDIND, please note that Jorah is described as over 40 and balding. Sandor is only 26! :P

That about sums up my recap. MDIND is responsible for recapping the next chapter, and she’ll get to it when she gets to it, but we’re shooting for 2-3 chapters per week. This should keep us entertained for the next 2-3 months, or however long it takes to get through ADWD.

Discuss.

[brashcandy]

My sincere thanks Alexia and MDIND for these Daenerys recaps. I'm pretty excited to have them now that we know more of what Varys and Illyrio were up to in ADWD. And I am definitely in the camp of MDIND in liking Dany very much :) so I'll admit my bias freely.

I definitely agree that this chapter helps a bit to shed some sympathy on Viserys. He's obviously been treated unfairly by Illyrio as they've already chosen their Targ heir in Aegon. Now, we know why Illyrio is so smug, but it is shocking to see how much Viserys was unprepared for ruling! I mean couldn't they even have provided him with some sword training... even if it was to protect his own life? And in light of this, Viserys' own bravado is surprising... was he just incredibly brave or incredibly stupid? It makes me wonder now if Viserys was naturally mad, or if the events of his life turned him mad. Could he have been a good leader if he had what Aegon did, or was there always a defect in his character?

Certainly his disregard of his sister doesn't speak well for him either and you're right that his questions about her being too young for Khal Drogo really does highlight that "flowered" brides are not the norm in Westeros. They are expected to be given lots more time to develop. Again, this makes me feel bad for Dany... and it's another reason why I see so many similarities between her and Sansa.

Now based on what you've noted here, I'm more convinced that Dany was always the treasure and that Varys and Illyrio really didn't give two hoots about her brother. I wonder why they let them wander around so long though... or if they were always keeping tabs on them to make sure that Dany didn't come to any harm through Viserys' follies.

My bet is that perhaps they only saw the true value of Daenerys towards the end, and this is why they make a grab for her and arrange the marriage to Drogo. Perhaps (going on the idea that Aegon is false) they knew they needed a true dragon to consolidate their plans, and she would be able to bring a huge Dothraki army. Illyrio's specific comments on how much Dany looks like a Targ are particularly revealing here. These are the exact same traits they've attempted to recreate in Aegon. The repetition of "no doubt, no doubt" suggesting that Illyrio recognizes she is the true dragon, whilst he attempting to breed a false one.

I think that Jorah was sent as much to be a spy on Dany as he was to protect her. They don't want her to die, because she's a valuable bride for Aegon in the future, and right now she can deliver the Dothraki. They don't mind waiting either, because back in KL the usurper is still on the throne and they can afford to be patient for a while longer. One person who isn't patient however is Viserys and he's the bomb that maybe they didn't expect to go off so soon. Kinda reminds me of LF telling Sansa that Cersei is self destructing sooner than he would like.

Now the fact that Dany was always important to the plan perhaps indicates why Illyrio gave her the gift of the dragon eggs. Not only were they an elaborate wedding gift, IMO, but I've always thought that he knew a bit about dragon lore, and he was betting that something might happen with these eggs if they were in Dany's possession. He may not have been able to foresee that she would actually birth dragons, but I'm willing to bet that when he heard he wasn't too surprised. It makes sense that he gave them to her as well because he knows Aegon isn't a real dragon, and why waste them on him.

So I'll stop there and looking forward to the next installment!

ETA: Oh I forgot to mention the Lannister and Stark sacking. It could have been possible, and maybe this is why Dany is so adamant about the usurper's dogs.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Thank you for the recap. I must say I agree with all of Brashcandy's post. I just want to add one more point to Brashcandy's argument.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it Barristan Selmy who told Dany that he saw signs of madness in Viserys in KL? If so, Varys must have seen them too, which would explain why he and Illyrio were not interested in including Viserys in their plans.

As for the sacking of KL, Viserys wasn't there and a lot of what he has told Dany about the events that occurred during that period are not accurate as Dany is beginning to discover.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Hi Alexia! Thanks for this great idea and inviting me to participate. Hi also to anyone else that might read this (though if it's just us that's fine by me).

I'm going to first post my reactions to my reread of the chapter before reading your summary.

First thought - Daenerys doesn't miss much, she's a smart cookie. She is patient, watching, drinking in any knowledge she can get. She follows the gossip in the streets about Illyrio, and knows from that not to trust him. She understands the hypocrisy of Illyrio having slaves: "there were no slaves in Pentos, nevertheless, these were slaves." She already is aware what a naive fool Viserys is about well, pretty much everything. Yet despite years of abuse she is not mentally cowed by Viserys, but she doesn't hate him either, or even really judge him. It's quite a contrast to the other young women PoV's, who are characterized during aGoT by their extreme levels of mistrust and naive trust respectively. Daenerys falls in the middle, aware of the bad, but aware of the limits of her own power.

Next, I found this chapter deeply creepy because of things we learned about in a dance with dragons

Namely that we found out both Viserys and Illyrio were on the verge of raping her shortly after the betrothal scene. In fact everything Illyrio did was cast in a new light by this. "She is a vision, your grace. A vision". *shudder*

Suffice it to say, Dany's instincts about Illyrio were dead on. And I'm thankful she ultimately chose to go to Slaver's Bay in a Storm of Swords rather than returning to Illyrio's power.

We also have our first hint that Rhaegar may not be a villain - Daenerys has been told that Rhaegar died for the woman he loved. This is in stark contrast the story we just heard from Robert, that Rhaegar supposedly raped and murdered Lyanna. We now have two contrasting narratives which will continue to do battle throughout the books. It's significant that we don't know by whom she was told - could be Viserys, could be the knight who helped them flee, or it could be general knowledge.

[Zar Lannister]

I'm hopping into this wagon too...

I'll start my re-read tonight. :thumbsup:

[Bugger that]

Next, I found this chapter deeply creepy because of things we learned about in a dance with dragons

Namely that we found out both Viserys and Illyrio were on the verge of raping her shortly after the betrothal scene. In fact everything Illyrio did was cast in a new light by this. "She is a vision, your grace. A vision". *shudder*

Suffice it to say, Dany's instincts about Illyrio were dead on. And I'm thankful she ultimately chose to go to Slaver's Bay in a Storm of Swords rather than returning to Illyrio's power.

About the spoiler, are you sure it was both of them? I thought it was only

Viserys and that Illyrio posted a guard outside Dany's door so that he wouldn't get to her.

[Jenny of Oldstones]

I never thought to reread the books by character arc rather than the general order they are presented. What a great idea! Now I just have to get my copies back in my possession. I've always liked Dany and she has a fairly stand alone storyline, so what a great place to start. Once you guys finish your in depth read of her, do you plan on covering other character arcs?

[Alexia]

About the spoiler, are you sure it was both of them? I thought it was only

Viserys and that Illyrio posted a guard outside Dany's door so that he wouldn't get to her.

It was both of them. Illyrio said that he considered marrying Dany himself. That being said, we don't need to use spoiler text in this thread since the mods have inserted [ADWD Spoilers] into the topic title.

Will respond more fully to thoughts later...

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

About the spoiler, are you sure it was both of them? I thought it was only

Viserys and that Illyrio posted a guard outside Dany's door so that he wouldn't get to her.

Indeed, you are correct that Illyrio posted guards to make sure Viserys didn't rape Dany, but he had similar designs himself. He say ssomething like "I had half a mind to fuck her myself, she looked so like my Serra. I fucked my slave instead, thinking about her." And he described to Tyrion in detail how sexy this little 13 year old was. Illyrio is so disgusting in that chapter...

[Alexia]

Rereading it with all that in mind, even though I didn't touch on it in the recap, was really interesting. One thing I noticed was how Dany was trembling when he let go of her hand, in the quote I put in the recap. It rather put me in mind of Sansa's reaction to LF in AGOT -- a young girl being creeped out by an older man's sexual attention, without quite understanding why.

[Bugger that]

Indeed, you are correct that Illyrio posted guards to make sure Viserys didn't rape Dany, but he had similar designs himself. He say ssomething like "I had half a mind to fuck her myself, she looked so like my Serra. I fucked my slave instead, thinking about her." And he described to Tyrion in detail how sexy this little 13 year old was. Illyrio is so disgusting in that chapter...

Eeww.... I must have blocked that part out! :D

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I almost forgot how compelling a character Daenerys is in AGOT. MyDogisNamedDanerys and I are doing the reread together, taking turns recapping chapters, with MDIND as a big fan of Daenerys and a much more neutral Alexia.

"Compelling in AGOT?" I'm sure I don't understand what you're getting at. She's always and forever compelling. :)

It would be cool if we could get an oughtright Dany-disliker to have all three perspectives. Maybe some of them will join the reread. :)

In here, it indicates that Viserys was eight when he fled KL with his pregnant mother. Now I feel really sorry for him. I had it in my head that he was four (thanks again for doing this reread with me, MDIND!). So he is plenty old enough to remember Rhaegar, Rhaenys and Aegon, his mother and father, and so on. Poor kid – that would really screw someone up.

Yeah I have no sympathy for Viserys even on rereads, no matter how old he was. Sorry... :)

It also notes that Viserys tells Daenerys that the lords Lannister and Stark are responsible for sacking KL. I find this very significant – when Ned arrived, did his force participate in the Sack?

Yes, we know that they were there and intimately involved.

Jorah describes the sack in a Storm of Swords, because he was there. And he was part of the Stark forces, obviously. He witnessed men doing horrible things to the people of King's Landing, raping, killing, all because that's the nature of war. One of my favorite quotes:

"...inside every man there is a savage beast waiting to be unleashed."

This implies to me that the Northern Forces were likely perpetrators as well as Lannister men.

As for the timing, Stark forces arrived no more than a few days after Lannister. I think the same day, as Jaime was still sitting on the damn throne covered in blood when Ned arrived.

How does this fit with the idea that Illyrio and Varys had plans for Daenerys and Viserys? And while I agree with someone who said that sending them to the Dothraki is a pretty elaborate murder attempt – what was the real reason they were sent to the Dothraki?

One hypothesis: Similar to killing Kevan Lannister, part of what Varys and Ilyrio want is general mayhem in Westeros. Dothraki are good at mayhem.

I cannot believe that Illyrio and Varys had any other plans for this man other than for him to die. And they left Daenerys with him…

They want Aegon to look like a true king in comparison to Viserys. That's enough to explain it for me. Further, if they wanted him to die why not just kill him? It's unecessarily elaborate to send him off with a Khalasaar and hope he is suicidally stupid.

Also, MDIND, please note that Jorah is described as over 40 and balding. Sandor is only 26! :P

Your mom is over 40 and balding.

in light of this, Viserys' own bravado is surprising... was he just incredibly brave or incredibly stupid?

Viserys is mad, cruel, and an idiot, in my opinion.

Now based on what you've noted here, I'm more convinced that Dany was always the treasure and that Varys and Illyrio really didn't give two hoots about her brother. I wonder why they let them wander around so long though... or if they were always keeping tabs on them to make sure that Dany didn't come to any harm through Viserys' follies.

So actually while I was listening again, it occurred to me that Dany probably didn't have as poor/sad an upbringing as I'd remembered. She lived in the houses of nobles for most of her childhood, and likely had access to libraries, maester-like people, religious figures, etc. This is borne out by Daenerys' mentioning reading military and political strategies and such in various books. Living with many different families in many places is an education in itself and only recently had they been true "beggars." Varys and Illyrio may have felt that Daenerys would actually benefit more from this than from a more stable existence.

There's also the fact that surely V&I wanted Aegon to appear the most suitable for leadership. Therefore they consciously chose to give him a better education than D&V got.

As for Viserys... I still doubt Alexia's assertion that they definitely wanted him dead. There are far, far better ways to kill Viserys than to send him off with the Khalasaar hoping he'll be a suicidal idiot. I think they didn't particularly care much if he died, but that he would be a useful backup plan if something were to happen to both Aegon and Daenerys.

I think that Jorah was sent as much to be a spy on Dany as he was to protect her. They don't want her to die, because she's a valuable bride for Aegon in the future, and right now she can deliver the Dothraki.

This is a bit early to discuss, perhaps. But what the heck. What's unclear even today is how much Jorah knew about the situation. I guess that Jorah was instructed to protect Dany if possible (we don't know about Viserys), but not to what end. He clearly felt suspicious of Illyrio/Varys' endgame motives, otherwise he wouldn't have advised Dany to turn off for Slaver's Bay.

Now the fact that Dany was always important to the plan perhaps indicates why Illyrio gave her the gift of the dragon eggs. Not only were they an elaborate wedding gift, IMO, but I've always thought that he knew a bit about dragon lore, and he was betting that something might happen with these eggs if they were in Dany's possession... It makes sense that he gave them to her as well because he knows Aegon isn't a real dragon, and why waste them on him.

Right, this has always been my thought on the issue as well. It's also clear that Illyrio had banked on Daenerys remaining as tractable as she seemed in this first chapter (though as I pointed out I think it's already clear that Dany is no wilting flower inside, whatever her outward appearance). She is used to masking her emotions. Which, by the way, I think is something that Emelia Clarke really gets about Daenerys and what I love most about her potrayal.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it Barristan Selmy who told Dany that he saw signs of madness in Viserys in KL? If so, Varys must have seen them too, which would explain why he and Illyrio were not interested in including Viserys in their plans.

You're correct. It was revealed during the Barristan/Jorah "hearing" in aSoS. I am under the impression from this, as well as Illyrio's attitude towards Viserys in this chapter, that Illyrio and Varys were very much aware that Viserys was both mad, and an utter fool. Indeed as Alexia pointed out it's quite clear they'd decided they needed another male "dragon" for their restoration to stick (I think it's less clear that they actually had no use for him, as I say above).

[RSU]

Love the concept of a re-read by chracter. I'm on my first re-read of the whole series, so that will have to wait for me, but I think I'll enjoy these postings.

One question - if Illyrio & Vary's plan is to marry Dany to Aegon, why would they have risked marrying her to Drogo first? They couldn't count on Drogo dying while Dany is still young, and I doubt a khal would agree to his wife marrying another man, regardless of whether she is a Targ. I think their whole game plan has been Aegon, and Dany was just a way to get 40,000 mounted swords to join the Targ cause.

But I do like Brashcandy's point about giving the eggs to Dany instead of to Aegon being an indication that Aegon isn't really a Targ.

When this is all over, though, I really wonder if GRRM thought up Aegon after he wrote AGOT.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

When this is all over, though, I really wonder if GRRM thought up Aegon after he wrote AGOT.

I'm almost sure this is the case and that Aegon is at least partly a ret-con, and this has caused some slightly confusing plot inconsistencies. But, we will probably never know.

ETA: It's quite likely that GRRM intended for a false dragon (Aegon) to eventually appear at least by the time he wrote the house of the undying, and perhaps earlier. However, I suspect he had never thought out the details until he began writing adwd. This is consistent with his general writing style. IMO, he has done a less than stellar job of trying to make a convincing story for Aegon that fits with the previously existing plot tapestry.

[Alexia]

Will respond more later, but frankly, I think the story jumps the tracks to some extent in ADWD/AFFC and I think the big problem is all the new storylines, as well as telling us all the details we don't care about or need to know (did we need to see everyone travelling?). Aegon is part of a greater problem that is mirrored in the Ironborn, the Dornish, and Cersei.

[Alexia]

I will, again, respond more later but I find it very interesting that Stark forces participated in the Sack. Ned is so outraged about what happened to Elia and her children, and yet he never spared a thought for the suffering of the smallfolk. I remember learning about it from Sansa and Cersei in ACOK. It doesn't exactly paint Ned the Pure in a very nice light, now does it. (saves info away to use in the next Ned is Perfect debate I get into)

[brashcandy]

They want Aegon to look like a true king in comparison to Viserys. That's enough to explain it for me. Further, if they wanted him to die why not just kill him? It's unecessarily elaborate to send him off with a Khalasaar and hope he is suicidally stupid.

This is a bit early to discuss, perhaps. But what the heck. What's unclear even today is how much Jorah knew about the situation. I guess that Jorah was instructed to protect Dany if possible (we don't know about Viserys), but not to what end. He clearly felt suspicious of Illyrio/Varys' endgame motives, otherwise he wouldn't have advised Dany to turn off for Slaver's Bay.

You're correct. It was revealed during the Barristan/Jorah "hearing" in aSoS. I am under the impression from this, as well as Illyrio's attitude towards Viserys in this chapter, that Illyrio and Varys were very much aware that Viserys was both mad, and an utter fool. Indeed as Alexia pointed out it's quite clear they'd decided they needed another male "dragon" for their restoration to stick (I think it's less clear that they actually had no use for him, as I say above).

Just wanted to pull your Viserys quotes cause I think you're making a sound point. Varys would have known that Viserys was mad or let's say that he took after his father a bit too much to ever make a good king. So they were never banking on him. And I agree as well that they did have a use for him if he made it out alive with the Dothraki and they were able to attack Westeros. Let Viserys be the face of the revolt, and risk his life, whilst illustrating perfectly to people that he's another mad Targ like his father. This of course then is the perfect time to spring Aegon, the heir with the stronger claim than either Viserys or Dany and crown him as Rhaegar's sane, sensible, and thoroughly educated son.

Now as to Jorah, I don't think he knew much indeed. Varys probably gave him very vague instructions, "tell me what's happening, and watch out for the girl". I don't think he was given any instructions on Viserys, and Jorah could probably see for himself that he was crazy.

And poor Doran Martell. He was really screwed over in this whole affair.... I wonder how he's gonna view Aegon in light of the whole debacle with Quentyn.

[Verboten]

I hated Danaerys until ADWD. I know I'm a freak of nature, but I was planning on re-reading the books anyway so this thread is interesting.

[Tyrionthebest]

I'm almost sure this is the case and that Aegon is at least partly a ret-con, and this has caused some slightly confusing plot inconsistencies. But, we will probably never know.

ETA: It's quite likely that GRRM intended for a false dragon (Aegon) to eventually appear at least by the time he wrote the house of the undying, and perhaps earlier. However, I suspect he had never thought out the details until he began writing adwd. This is consistent with his general writing style. IMO, he has done a less than stellar job of trying to make a convincing story for Aegon that fits with the previously existing plot tapestry.

Well i would expect it of you being a Dany fangirl and all. Though the fact is Aegon in the few chapters that he has been in the book was more intersting to read than Dany's whole 10 chapters, ok maybe except the dragon riding one .

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Well i would expect it of you being a Dany fangirl and all. Though the fact is Aegon in the few chapters that he has been in the book was more intersting to read than Dany's whole 10 chapters, ok maybe except the dragon riding one .

Well, that's a fascinating opinion you have there, but hardly a fact. Ought I start calling you an Aegon fanboy? I don't see the point in name calling, it doesn't really add anything to the conversation.

I hated Danaerys until ADWD. I know I'm a freak of nature, but I was planning on re-reading the books anyway so this thread is interesting.

That's awesome, actually. I'm interested in hearing why as we go along, since your opinion is rather the opposite of the norm. Welcome!

Let Viserys be the face of the revolt, and risk his life, whilst illustrating perfectly to people that he's another mad Targ like his father. This of course then is the perfect time to spring Aegon, the heir with the stronger claim than either Viserys or Dany and crown him as Rhaegar's sane, sensible, and thoroughly educated son.

:agree: This may be a decent explaination for what happened. I kind of wish that more would be explained explicitly. Eh. :dunno: