Unpopular Opinions part II

[Queen Cersei I]

Continued on from the previous "Unpopular Opinions" thread. I had some more I wanted to post:

1. I think that Doran Martell is perhaps the most annoying leader man/ patriarch figure we've gotten thus far in a long line of such figures. I hope he dies, so Arrianne can rule, and so readers will no longer have to tolerate his lazy, self-indulgent, gouty self.

2. I think that the Viper was a total ass to punch that prostitute who mothered Obara. That was disgusting, nasty, and the farthest thing from "badass" in the world. Extra points for the fact that he did it in front of his seven year old daughter.

3.I think that the Red Wedding, while sad for Robb and co, was more "moral" than the Stark's "honorable" and more traditional method of waging war. (In terms of damage done to the innocent smallfolk.)

4. I think Sansa is one of the most courageous characters in these books. (Rather than being Arya's foil, she is, in all honesty, Arya's "other half." She is everything Arya is-- brave, loyal, in need of love/ companionship, grappling with, and losing, her identity, etc.-- only passive, rather than active.)

5. With the exception of book 1-3 Cersei, I don't think there is a single wholly believable, realistic ADULT female character in these books. (I am annoyed at the constant (and unfair) bashing of Cat on these boards, like many others. However, I can't help but suspect that, in terms of being a complex, multi dimensional individual, she is not half so "realistic" as people claim. It is not Cat herself, but her situation, her concerns, and her fears that are "real" and "relatable" I think that countless female posters** are constantly defending her not because she is realistic or even given much sympathy by the text itself, but because they relate to her as women, and see themselves in her.)

6. When Cersei noted how she shagged Jaime on King Robert's bed after he went to screw his cousin, I laughed and laughed and cheered in triumph.

**And yes, I do realize that guys do sympathize with Cat. I'm sorry to be sexist here. But it does seem as though, in the "was Cat a total, evil bitch?" discussions, those who loathe Cat are very often male, her most venhement defenders often female

[Knight of Ashes]

Continued on from the previous "Unpopular Opinions" thread. I had some more I wanted to post:

6. When Cersei noted how she shagged Joff on King Robert's bed after he went to screw his cousin, I laughed and laughed and cheered in triumph.

What?

[Queen Cersei I]

What?

Hehee. Yeah, oops, I obviously meant Jaime. I was thinking of how Cersei thought "i hope that was the night I conceived Joffrey" or something like that. :dunno:

[1234567]

4. I think Sansa is one of the most courageous characters in these books. (Rather than being Arya's foil, she is, in all honesty, Arya's "other half." She is everything Arya is-- brave, loyal, in need of love/ companionship, grappling with, and losing, her identity, etc.-- only passive, rather than active.)

**And yes, I do realize that guys do sympathize with Cat. I'm sorry to be sexist here. But it does seem as though, in the "was Cat a total, evil bitch?" discussions, those who loathe Cat are very often male, her most venhement defenders often female

Sansa is one of my favourite characters and has been through as much as Arya IMHO. Daily beatings by the Kingsguard are not easy to deal with. Also I think Tyrion's treatment of Sansa was awful and his treatment of women in general is not great.

Also I'm female and I can't empathize with Cat at all. I feel sorry for her, but she was quite stupid.

[Verboten]

Continued on from the previous "Unpopular Opinions" thread. I had some more I wanted to post:

1. I think that Doran Martell is perhaps the most annoying leader man/ patriarch figure we've gotten thus far in a long line of such figures. I hope he dies, so Arrianne can rule, and so readers will no longer have to tolerate his lazy, self-indulgent, gouty self.

2. I think that the Viper was a total ass to punch that prostitute who mothered Obara. That was disgusting, nasty, and the farthest thing from "badass" in the world. Extra points for the fact that he did it in front of his seven year old daughter.

I think Obara was twelve actually. But now I have more justification for hating him!

[Alexia]

Sansa is one of my favourite characters and has been through as much as Arya IMHO. Daily beatings by the Kingsguard are not easy to deal with. Also I think Tyrion's treatment of Sansa was awful and his treatment of women in general is not great.

:agree:

I couldn't believe that he sat around feeling sorry for himself in the whole matter. Just... :stillsick:

[Verboten]

Arya would never have survived in Sansa's situation. Sansa would never have survived in Arya's situation. They are both strong, but they express it in different ways.

[Bourne]

Continued on from the previous "Unpopular Opinions" thread. I had some more I wanted to post:

2. I think that the Viper was a total ass to punch that prostitute who mothered Obara. That was disgusting, nasty, and the farthest thing from "badass" in the world. Extra points for the fact that he did it in front of his seven year old daughter.

Does anybody disagree with that?

[Alexia]

Does anybody disagree with that?

I don't know if its an unpopular opinion, but I've had arguments with people who say that he was in the right.

[1234567]

I don't know if its an unpopular opinion, but I've had arguments with people who say that he was in the right.

Really? I mean, that was such an awful thing to do to a mother, who the drank herself to death!

[Bad Dog]

I get why he did it, but it still was a very ugly thing to do.

[voodooqueen126]

Really? I mean, that was such an awful thing to do to a mother, who the drank herself to death!

It was actually the right thing to do, just not the nice thing to do.

It's a bit like taking a child into foster care because her mother is raising her to become a prostitue.

except he was her father.

Surely we're not going to claim that poor Obara is part of the Stolen Generation? Lol.

[mediocre cheese]

Well he could have provided for the mother and the child to ensure neither would have to be a prostitutes. Giving them servants and what not, would've been fairly easy for a prince of Dorne.

[seanbean4lyfe]

Sansa is one of my favourite characters and has been through as much as Arya IMHO. Daily beatings by the Kingsguard are not easy to deal with. Also I think Tyrion's treatment of Sansa was awful and his treatment of women in general is not great.

Also I'm female and I can't empathize with Cat at all. I feel sorry for her, but she was quite stupid.

:agree:

Sansa is my second favorite character. i think she is a very interesting character. loss of innocence and growing from that. she seems real to me. arya is more two dimensional IMO

how was Sansa supposed to react to what ahppened to her?some people think she's week, but she did good with what she could. i think she was smart the way she handled it. her being the "little bird" and being obedient probably saved her life.

i agree about Tyrion too. in GoT and ACoK he was awesome. then he got creepy and all "pity me" pretty fast.

[voodooqueen126]

Frankly seeing these board posts (that I happen to agree with) think Tyrion is like Tommy Tiernan's friend "Declan Moffat"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ph7XHGmj1NA

who he starts talking about from 10.19 of that video.

[Queen Cersei I]

Does anybody disagree with that?

Uh huh.

People have said, "the Viper was trying to rescue his daughter/ prove to her that her mother was a bad, bad person. (Well, knowing these books and their treatment of whores thus far, I would not be the least bit surprised if she turned out to be PURE EVIL (or just bad) in future books, and the one to blame for Obara's anger. Someone mentioned that we may well get a Obara POV in TWoW. If that happens, I can only fear that we are going to learn some stuff about Obara's mom that makes the punch look "harsh but justified," or whatever. Like she was always encouraging Obara to take start taking customers herself, or having client transactions in front of Obara, or drunkenly abusing Bara, or was trying to blackmail the viper, or some combination of these things.)

At any rate-- yeah, people HAVE argued that it was justified (under the circumstances). I've actually heard more people argue that it was okay/ understandable than people calling it disgusting. And, few mention this when they note how cool/ badass Oberyn was.

My argument was athat I pretty much think this instance of disgusting abuse disqualifies Oberyn from being "badass." However, he seems to be just yet another Westeros male who is all in favor of abusing hookers because he can, so... :dunno:

[Buckwheat]

1. I think that Doran Martell is perhaps the most annoying leader man/ patriarch figure we've gotten thus far in a long line of such figures. I hope he dies, so Arrianne can rule, and so readers will no longer have to tolerate his lazy, self-indulgent, gouty self.

Agree 100%. I pity him for suffering constant pain, but I also think that Arianne should rule Dorne. Stop doing nothing, old man!

[holding]

I think Sansa is one of the most courageous characters in these books. (Rather than being Arya's foil, she is, in all honesty, Arya's "other half." She is everything Arya is-- brave, loyal, in need of love/ companionship, grappling with, and losing, her identity, etc.-- only passive, rather than active.)

Agree with pretty much everything (although the thing about Robert's bed didn't make me cheer, so much as throw the book across the room in fury because WTF happened to that Jaime?) but especially this. I will never understand why Sansa gets so much hate; she's been one of my favourites since the beginning and her arc is flawless.

With the exception of book 1-3 Cersei, I don't think there is a single wholly believable, realistic ADULT female character in these books.

Well, it's hard to say any of the characters, male or female, are wholly believable and realistic, but I'm not sure why you discount Cersei in the later books. Actually, that's an unpopular opinion in itself - I have no problem with the characterisation of Cersei in AFFC and I kind of love it in ADWD. She's falling apart, yes, but in a way that's totally self-consistant and makes sense. I don't get why everybody expects her to be another Littlefinger and is annoyed when she makes stupid decisions. She is a terrible politician and always has been. Like Jaime, she's at her best when she's fighting, like in GOT and like in ADWD. She doesn't have the patience or subtlety to rule well, but that's pretty much always been true. She couldn't control Joffrey even a little bit; Tywin had to intervene right at the beginning because she was already making bad decisions. Tyrion and Tywin think and plan; Jaime and Cersei act, usually on impulse and out of emotion. I also don't get why, when every Lannister sibling is currently breaking down in identical awesome mirrored ways, Cersei's arc is the one that's bad.

Another unpopular opinion - I kind of ship Brienne and Ser Hyle and their awesome Westeros romcom. If he's dead I'll be genuinely sad.

[-jelena-]

Uh huh.

People have said, "the Viper was trying to rescue his daughter/ prove to her that her mother was a bad, bad person. (Well, knowing these books and their treatment of whores thus far, I would not be the least bit surprised if she turned out to be PURE EVIL (or just bad) in future books, and the one to blame for Obara's anger. Someone mentioned that we may well get a Obara POV in TWoW. If that happens, I can only fear that we are going to learn some stuff about Obara's mom that makes the punch look "harsh but justified," or whatever. Like she was always encouraging Obara to take start taking customers herself, or having client transactions in front of Obara, or drunkenly abusing Bara, or was trying to blackmail the viper, or some combination of these things.)

True, indeed :D

I’m kind of sick of portraying some characters as pure evil so we can justify bad behavior of our precious little fantasy heroes. That is one of the reasons why I don’t like Tyrion anymore. With him it’s like “if you have any problem with his attitude and behavior just blame it on Tywin, Cersei or Shae”. Well, how about taking a responsibility for your own actions once in a while?

Well, I have to admit I like Oberyn. Not because he is “cool” or “badass” (I hate those words) but I find him interesting and enjoy reading about him. I certainly don’t approve or justify his treatment of Obara’s mother. I wish he had not acted that way.

Well, it's hard to say any of the characters, male or female, are wholly believable and realistic, but I'm not sure why you discount Cersei in the later books. Actually, that's an unpopular opinion in itself - I have no problem with the characterisation of Cersei in AFFC and I kind of love it in ADWD. She's falling apart, yes, but in a way that's totally self-consistant and makes sense. I don't get why everybody expects her to be another Littlefinger and is annoyed when she makes stupid decisions. She is a terrible politician and always has been. Like Jaime, she's at her best when she's fighting, like in GOT and like in ADWD. She doesn't have the patience or subtlety to rule well, but that's pretty much always been true. She couldn't control Joffrey even a little bit; Tywin had to intervene right at the beginning because she was already making bad decisions. Tyrion and Tywin think and plan; Jaime and Cersei act, usually on impulse and out of emotion. I also don't get why, when every Lannister sibling is currently breaking down in identical awesome mirrored ways, Cersei's arc is the one that's bad.

Look, I don’t want to sound as some raging feminist here, but the thing is…

Cersei is impatient and impulsive, we all know that. But the way GRRM portrays her in AFFC it looks like Hot Pie would do better job as a ruler. I was really looking forward to her chapters because I was hoping to see her as a formidable enemy and a ruthless but sufficient leader; a great counterpart to the male villains. Being impatient and impulsive is one thing, her “work” in AFFC completely another; it was just plain ridiculous. Why are the male villains also sufficient leaders and great strategists but the main female villain acts as a moron? And who is another female antagonist in this story? Lysa Arryn, portrayed as a lunatic obsessed over some teenage crush.

And for Jaime… he is also portrayed as impatient and hasty but he’s been doing pretty fine in the Riverlands without dropping any blood. That much about his impulsive behavior…

Another unpopular opinion - I kind of ship Brienne and Ser Hyle and their awesome Westeros romcom. If he's dead I'll be genuinely sad.

I’ve just reread AFFC and I totally support this idea. I kind of like Ser Hyle.

[Bad Dog]

I’m kind of sick of portraying some characters as pure evil so we can justify bad behavior of our precious little fantasy heroes. That is one of the reasons why I don’t like Tyrion anymore. With him it’s like “if you have any problem with his attitude and behavior just blame it on Tywin, Cersei or Shae”. Well, how about taking a responsibility for your own actions once in a while?

Well, I have to admit I like Oberyn. Not because he is “cool” or “badass” (I hate those words) but I find him interesting and enjoy reading about him. I certainly don’t approve or justify his treatment of Obara’s mother. I wish he had not acted that way.

Agreed. Tyrion was screwed over something dreadful for most of his life, but that's no excuse for everything he does, and the same holds true for every single character. Hell, Sandor is one of my favourite characters, and I still don't think everything he did is automatically excused due to him being traumatized and all that. I understand why he is the way he is, but it's no excuse.

What I'm trying to say is, one can like a character despite his flaws. I find it annoying when people try to justify everything their favourite character does. Oberyn is cool (sorry about the word, Jelena :)), but he still has his flaws. Tyrion is witty and bright, and I enjoy his POV, but he can still be one hell of a git. Sandor is Teh Ultimate Badass (sorry again, Jelena ;)), but yeah, he is a cold-hearted bastard, not a big fluffy misunderstood puppy.

But I digress. :)