Unpopular Opinions part II

[Errant Bard]

I just feel as though they needed their mother there with them to reassure them more than Robb needed her with him. But really I do have to admit that my distaste for Cat stems from the whole Jon thing. Jon did not deserve to have Cat's anger taken out on him.

Fair enough for Jon, though I find her every excuse for it, including the fact it happens only once, when she mourns her favourite kid, after being deprived of sleep for one week. Knowing what happens when people are having such nervous breaks, I even find her reaction extremely mild.

But for the rest, it's fact that they actually did not need their mother. We saw what happened to them in the direst circumstances. Robb did need his mother. He actually needed to listen to her more. She was constantly right, always, even for Jon.

Here's my unpopular theory. I like Arya best in AFFC/ADWD. She's kinda boring in ACOK and the first half of ASOS.

Agreed. I like her before AFFC, but she's only interesting in so far as she explores the transformation of a good kid into someone less good, because of circumstances and personality that other Fantasy stories usually shrug off.

The AFFC/ADWD chapters are better written, and have her become her own woman, rather than the sister of X or the daughter of Y, trying her best to stay in that subaltern role.

And huh. Anyone notice that these women who try to seize and/or wield power, and who also tend to fuck up at it, are all for some mysterious reason heavily sexualized? Like, having sex out of wedlock and/or committing adultery and/or just being totally sultry and sexified? HUH. I wonder why in the WORLD that could be!

Because using sex in a patriarchal society that promotes monogamous relationships is empowering for the character, in both meta and straight sense, mostly.

But then again, I can't remember Catelyn being heavily sexualized. Neither Lysa or Asha or Melisandre or Osha

or Lady Dustin, or Alys Kastark, or Val, or Maege/Lyanna Mormont, or that priestess in Meereen

Can't remember Taena Merryweather fucking up, or Ygritte, or Dany, truly,

her fucking up is actually presented as the result of her going against her sexual appetites.

How many examples are there for you? Cersei and Arianne? You want sexified guys who want power, look no further than Theon, Jaime, Loras, Walder Frey (heh) or Tyrion. Why are they heavily sexualized? I wonder why in the WORLD that could be. (Tyrion is in fact so much more sexualized than any other character that it becomes creepy)

She was a cold-hearted, manipulative, charming and calculating villain. In AFFC she acts as a psycho brainless moron. She was a caricature (you said it yourself) and that is what bothers me. She’s always been a little bit crazy but, before AFFC, she pretty much knew how to handle herself and not to cross a line.

You have me mostly in agreement, except that I never thought she was presented as that cunning in the first place. I cared more about that Maggy the frog stupidity though, that was really disappointing of GRRM to use such a bad plot writing. I have no problem with perceived geniuses proving they're not so genial and/or devolving into psycho madmen. After all I like Catelyn, and I like how her personality took a hit with the loss of all her family and how it's written in.

suddenly her brother (who has always been described as an impulsive warrior not interested in ruling) has turned in Einstein capable of giving her some advises for which she is apparently stupid enough not to figure it out by herself. Or even Kevin: practically her father’s running dog has turned in some kind of a capable and ultra-intelligent leader. And Cersei is now what? A laughable and pitiful enemy.

These custom font stuff sure are a pain to quote.

I feel you exaggerate a lot: Jaime is no Einstein, and giving a few tips here and there after being in the kingsguard all his adult life, and having cooled down due to war, childhood having been spent being taught to be heir of a fourth of a continent, is not out of character.

As for Kevan, being the right-hand man of a guy ruling an empire for decades implies competency.

The problem lies with GRRM's bad handling of Cersei's change in characterisation, even though everything is there: even great politics have been known to fail epically, but what he did was too rushed and not too believable: one could see the ropes.

I’m talking mostly about villains here. I just wish we had at least one formidable female villain. That’s all. I don’t ask for every female character to be a smart cookie and deny that there are no stupid males in these books.

No can do. For one thing you would rant about the snow white Evil Queen archetype, for another the westerosi society is patriarchal on purpose: women cannot wield much power, in the end, this is inherent to fantasy.

This being said, women actually being accepted in all roles instead of being parked into the generic good guys camp with very rare exceptions is desirable. It's actually why I do hope that Martin will go further with Arya's personality.

Just look at the main male villains: Tywin, Euron, Littlefinger, Varys, Roose, Walder. Every single one of them is intelligent and capable; some of them are sufficient leaders and awed enemies. I just wish we had at least one female villain within their range. That’s all. After AGOT Cersei seemed to be perfect for that role but she has turned up to be some psycho lunatic and one of the stupidest characters.

Melisandre. Taena Merryweather. The Harpy. Dany. Lady Dustin. Olenna Tyrell. Margaery Tyrell. Sansa. Catelyn. Asha. All intelligent and capable, sufficient leaders, dangerous enemies.

But I feel you ask that women should have actual military power or something (the "awed enemies" part), in which case you're actually in disagreement with GRRM's world structure altogether. Even Asha, the most tomboy of them all, needs a man for political puppet.

[Bad Dog]

HashRouge, you're not alone. I hate Theon too.

[Errant Bard]

Well, that's kind of Theon's fault, because if he hadn't tried to take Winterfell for himself, it would never have happened.

It's your fault you were assaulted, you shouldn't have worn a short skirt.

But in any case, hating Theon is not an unpopular opinion (though it's not quite so vehement after ADWD)

ETA: Yeah, he's a dick and he's still pitiable, and has room for change yet. I easily relate to his situation and his choices too, when it comes to family and desire for acknowledgement.

[DoomPancakes]

Varys is my favorite character. The dude holds all the intelligence in Westeros, and most of it throughout the world. I feel like a team of him, Littlefinger, and Arya could do major damage to all the houses if they so choosed; moreso than any army.

[Many and More]

women cannot wield much power, in the end, this is inherent to fantasy.

Whoa, WHAT? :shocked:

[kephv]

Whoa, WHAT? :shocked:

Yeah, definitely not the case in this series anyway (e.g. Dany, Cersei, etc..).

[Winterfell is Burning]

It was a mistake to trust Varys there. Not really good, but it didn't hurt them that much in retrospective. At least she got rid of a man of questionable loyalty, gave the white cloak to Lannister's vassal and a seat in the Small Council to Jaime.

Jaime notoriously didn't wanted a Small Council seat, and Cersei knew that (plus there's the whole spending the war in a dungeon thing), Sandor left at the first battle. Barristan was the only competent military leader she had around, and one that had both prestige and knowledge of the inner workings in King's Landing.

Ned made a public confession of his crimes and acknowledged Joffrey as a true heir. If it hadn't been for Joff the war could have been finished. And noone could've predicted Joff's desicion there.

So, what do you think it would happen? Would the North simply believe that Ned was a traitor and that they were fooled all these years? Would Robb simply left the Riverlands for the Lannisters?

The answer obviously is never. They would have still gone to war against the Lannisters, only the King in the North part would change, they would support either Renly or Stannis. But had she just kept Ned prisioner, he would have been a key hostage.

And LF certainly played a factor in influencing Joffrey, so she obviously should have seen that this could happen. Someone like Tywin and Tyrion would simply never give the opportunity for it. Or if Joffrey did not followed the script, would have stopped it from happening, even if that means humilliating him in public- but Cersei would never do that to her golden boy.

I'm aware of some of her previous mistakes. But that is still far away from her ridiculous behavior from AFFC. Cersei faked her husband's death and had been capable of keeping a secret of her twincest and bastards for almost 15 years. She was quite charming and capable to manipulate people on her side. After AGOT it got worse. GRRM never gave her a chance to learn on some of her previous mistakes and evolve further. And that is all I asked for. One true female villain. That's all.

Everyone that matter saw she was responsible for Robert's death for the start. Nearly all the powerful players- Tyrion, Varys, LF, Kevan, Stannis, probably Pycelle- knew about her and Jaime as well, and it's implied that most of the Lannisters knew. If Robert didn't had the habit to turn a blind eye to things he doesn't want to see, he would have realized that too.

And of course, a smart woman doesn't have 3 children born of incest if her husband is the King (and a King known to have killed children), and to think she would have gotten away with it forever and ever shows she wasn't that intelligent in the first place.

[Jerry Cornelius]

The Kettleblacks -- she was only sleeping with Lancel out of lonliness in ACOK, but suddenly she's banging all three Kettleblacks?

I don't agree with your assessment of Cersei's relationship with Lancel in ACoK. When I first read the book, I thought it was pretty clear that she was sleeping with Lancel to better manipulate him; that having sex with him also satisfied her physical needs with a poor man's Jaime was an added bonus.

Before the Lancel revelation, Cersei had already been shown as willing to use the promise of sex to sway Ned ("Her fingers brushed lightly against his thigh, the gentlest of promises" followed by "Your wife is a thousand leagues away, and my brother has fled. Be kind to me, Ned. I swear to you, you shall never regret it"), just as Varys later revealed in ASoS that she repeatedly dangled the possibility of sex in front of Osmund Kettleback as additional compensation for his obedience ("...perhaps on the morrow, or when the wedding's done...").

Since the first three books established a clear and consistent pattern of Cersei using her sexuality to manipulate men and gratify her own desires, it seems almost prudish when some readers complain about her sexual behavior in AFfC; the only difference between the latter and the former are new POV chapters that reveal the follow through of her sexual strategies and indulgences in more detail.

[Tyrionthebest]

Here's an unpopular opinion . I really don't care about the Tower of Joy crap and all of the R+L=J whatever thing . It's one of the lowest points in the series imo . It's like I am supposed to care about Lyanna and Rhaegar even though they are only told through flashbacks . Oh, and i think Rhaegar is a massive douchebag for leaving his wife just for some prophecy that he didn't even know for sure if it was real .

[Errant Bard]

Yeah, definitely not the case in this series anyway (e.g. Dany, Cersei, etc..).

And we see that they are exceptions, and meet heavy resistance at every turn, while still needing a man to derive power from, in the case of anyone without dragons.

[Raksha the Demon]

The flashbacks and hints about the Tower of Joy and the Rhaegar/Lyanna relationship carry a lot of poignancy and a romantic glow only because we don't know what really happened, and because we are introduced to Lyanna as a haunting memory via her brother's grieving memory, complete with imagery of blue roses and blood. The idea of a handsome, brooding, musically inclined prince riding off into the sunset with the girl he loves is sweet (if cliched), but the knowledge that the handsome prince abandoned a wife and two small children to run off with the young beauty, and that their elopment (or whatever) caused the horrible deaths of several innocent men and a rebellion (in which the handsome prince's wife and kids were slaughtered and he met his own death) is far less appealing. Not to mention the young beauty's dying too.

We still don't know whether Lyanna was a willing participant in the escapade; though I suspect she was. But it was folly; because in taking her, Rhaegar automatically made his own House, and the Crown, a party to the insult to two other Houses - Stark and Baratheon, hence Aerys' over-reacting (since he was crazy) by torturing Rickard and Brandon (and others) to death, and the rebellions of Robert and Ned (with their supporters) and the deaths of so many others, soldiers, lords, knights, and women and children.

Of course, I never was much of a fan of Helen and Paris in greek mythology, either.

[Queen Cersei I]

Moving on, since I'm a man, am I allowed to declare that not a single male character in ASOIAF is realistic?

Of course. You can do whatever the hell you want. And not just because, as you put it, “since I’m a man.” You could certainly put forth the opinion that the male characters in the series are not realistic—or, more to the point, multidimensional, lifelike, and believable in their particular setting. (You could do the same for the women, for that matter, which I did myself, knowing that it would spark some lively debate.) However, I would disagree with you on this point—I find several of the adult male POV characters—Jaime and Tyrion in particular—to be wholly complex and believable. (Though, of course, not always likeable or sympathetic, but that’s a different issue entirely.)

Meanwhile, Tyrion is about as eye-rolling bad as Cersei.

Far from it. You personally may not like or agree with Tyrion’s current downward spiral, but his behavior is never unbelievable, nor inconsistent with the way he’s been presented since book one. He’s headed in the logical direction that books one and two began. And, as far as I can see, the author has never stopped giving him the lion’s share of empathy, and encouraging readers to do the same.

Not so with Cersei. Nor are her actions in AFFC a logical progression from her characterization in the first novel, as Tyrion’s are.

Actually this is another thing I’m confused about. I see this complaint a lot, and I have absolutely no idea what it means. What do you mean by realistic? The only thing I can think is your judging that based off of the average women you know and that you can't see any of them doing the things that the female characters do in the books. But that makes no sense to me. Nothing about these books is realistic, not the setting, events or characters (male or female).

What are your criteria for "wholly believable, realistic ADULT"? I really want to know, because I don't get what the big differences are here.

When I wrote “realistic,” I was obviously not thinking about a character being someone you could see yourself having daily interactions with, or see walking down the street. Because if that were the criteria, than no character (male or female) would be believable. When I said “real,” I was not speaking in terms of commonness, but of verisimilitude. Jaime, Tyrion, and numerous other male characters feel “real.” They are complex, ambiguous; they surprise me constantly, never fail to elicit visceral reactions of hatred, and affection, fear and anger; in short, they draw me in, arouse my sympathies (and disgust) and keep me guessing—just like real people. And when they do so (and here’s the key), it feels believable and organic to their character, rather than something just thrown in, to make the character seem more real/ complex/ evil. I don’t necessary sympathize with them, but they are believable and interesting.

Not so with the adult females. (And by adult, I guess I mean pretty much everyone, save Arya and Sansa. Dany is not an adult, but she is treated as one, and is constantly in adult situations.) They are, as Errant Bard notes, generally an admirable lot. Dany is brave and successful and strong, almost to a supernatural extent (and this is before she gets her dragons); Cat is steadfast and loving (except if your initials are J.S.); Asha is apparently a paragon of modernity and modern values in an archaic culture, to the extent that it appears she’s been dropped out of some kind of time machine/ spaceship device. All these women are clearly supposed to be morally good… but they are not “real” for me in the way that the males are.

This is due to a number of factors—for one, they do not seem to be allowed the moral ambiguity of the males. Tyrion, Jaime, and others frequently do horrible, selfish things, but the reader is given (in depth) an understanding as to why the men acted as they did, to the extent that readers often end up defending the most horrible actions as morally just. (Jaime throwing Bran, or Tyrion murdering Symon Sylvertongue and Shae come to mind. The latter deed was actually called “extra legal justice” by one poster.)

In contrast, the “good” women are pretty much unselfish, moral, conventionally good paragons. Asha is, though her code of morality is (considering her background) both strange and inexplicable. Sansa is, Cat is, Dany is. Even Danerys, who seems to be the author’s attempt at a morally ambiguous female character, falls short. She does “bad” things, but for the greater good. Furthermore, considerably less time is spent making the reader understand her motives than there is with the male morally ambiguous characters. Her actions often end up simply looking simultaneously ruthless and inexplicable.

For another, I do not find their responses to their situations believable. The good Asha emerges from a patriarchal, raping culture independent, self-sufficient, saucy, not the least bit resentful against men in general and (here’s the kicker) apparently instinctively opposed to the sort of casual violence that forms the bedrock to her culture. (Also, she never thinks “hey, this sucks, and they’re all totally mistreating me/ banning me from power because I’m a woman. None of the good women do, ever. (Arrianne does a few times, but that is before her plans blow up in her face, and she learns her lesson and starts obeying papa Doran.) Only Cersei does, and we (the audience) are clearly supposed to respond with “no, Cersei, it’s not because you’re a woman, it’s because you’re STUPID!”)

Dany is forcibly married to a man who is kind to her once, then proceeds to screw her roughly without foreplay every night thereafter, interacting very little with her otherwise. She ends up falling deeply, unambiguously in love with him, and desires only to stay married to him/ have his kids. Cat is married to a guy who kicks off the nuptials by (he tells her) getting another girl knocked up while at war (whose identity he refuses to divulge), then proceeding to bring home the kid to be raised alongside her kids. When she asks about the identify of the mother, he flips out on her, and commands her never to say some other chicks name again. And she responds… by instantly obeying, and coming to love, submit to, and obey Ned in everything, continually thinking that he is so wonderful, honorable, etc, and professing that “it would be impossible for me to love anyone more than I loved him.”

Both these women’s reactions are presented as a. good, and b. believable. (Interestingly, Dany and Cat’s general submission to and adoration of their husbands, as well as their inexplicable forgiving of these men for all things, is presented as clearly “good;” whilst Cersei’s loathing for, rebellion against, and “unnatural” attempts to influence/ control Robert is clearly presented as further proof of her wickedness and unnaturalness.) However, I find both Dany and Cat’s relations to their menfolk to be without nuance, and wishful thinking to the point of being ridiculous. In contrast, Cersei’s very understandable (though hardly admirable) resentment for her husband is a study in realism.

Overall, adult female characters like Asha, Cat, Dany et. Al strike me as unbelievable.

In contrast, Cersei of books 1-3, while far from sympathetic, always struck me as compelling, believable, and, thus, somehow “real.” Her actions, while often wrong, strike me as a far more believable response to her surroundings and the situation she’s in than do, say, those of Danerys. One can see how the combination of her natural character, what’s she’s been through, and her primary values have combined to cook up her actions.

And then there’s the issue that, in Aspects of the Novel, E.M. Forester claims is essential to make a “round” character—that the character can surprise you, and still be utterly believable. (He says that if the surprise is unbelievable, then it is merely a flat character attempting to be round.) Cersei surprised me. Dany, Cat, Asha Greyjoy—never once. (Though Asha did surprise me for her ridiculous characterization alone. She thinks, speaks, and acts like a poorly drawn, unbelievably modernized character out of a piece of fan fiction. She’s wonderfully likeable, totally admirable—and utterly unbelievable.)

[Queen Cersei I]

Cersei changed too. The character in AFFC is in not consistent with the character of AGOT-ASOS. Cersei was never a political genius, but she was turned into a raving lunatic in AFFC.

Examples:

The Kettleblacks -- she was only sleeping with Lancel out of lonliness in ACOK, but suddenly she's banging all three Kettleblacks? Now I want to bang them too, to find out what the heck kind of magnetic appeal they have that she'd suddenly decide to sleep with all three of them in a short period of time.

She never did. She only slept with two of them. She slept with Osmund in ASOS, Osney twice in AFFC.

In ADWD, she "confesses" to sleeping with all three to the high septon because (according to inexplicable CRAZY!Cersei reasoning,) it is better to "confess to too much than too little," or something like that.

The Kettleblacks -- she was only sleeping with Lancel out of lonliness in ACOK, but suddenly she's banging all three Kettleblacks? Now I want to bang them too, to find out what the heck kind of magnetic appeal they have that she'd suddenly decide to sleep with all three of them in a short period of time. Not only that, but she let one of them humiliate and dominate her with that "I like you with the crown on" crap. WTF?

You know, I've heard a lot of people objecting to Cersei's sexual manipulations of the Kettleblack's in AFFC, and I'm not sure why this is. Perhaps it's because many people unquestioningly view Cersei's sexual behavior in Feast as PURE EVIL and an unforgivable betrayal of Jaime, as the text so successfully encourages the reader to do. Perhaps it is because, in our culture, female fidelity is still held as an all important, often defining element of a woman's character. At any rate, whatever the reason, imo, such a summation is incorrect-- her willingness to use sex as a weapon to get what she wants from Osney and co. is one of the few things that is believable in Cersei's characterization in AFFC.

From the Godwoods convo with Ned Stark onwards, we know Cersei is willing to use sex to get ahead. IMO, this eternal devotion to Jaime that some seem to see as essential to a "good" Cersei has never been part of her character, not even in Thrones. In this conversation with Ned, I think we learn what's most important to her. And Jaime, though she loves him and considers him essentially a part of her, is not, imo, one of those things. What matters most to Cersei is her fierce pride and her equally fierce devotion to her children.

[Tyrionthebest]

The flashbacks and hints about the Tower of Joy and the Rhaegar/Lyanna relationship carry a lot of poignancy and a romantic glow only because we don't know what really happened, and because we are introduced to Lyanna as a haunting memory via her grieving memory, complete with imagery of blue roses and blood. The idea of a handsome, brooding, musically inclined prince riding off into the sunset with the girl he loves is sweet (if cliched), but the knowledge that the handsome prince abandoned a wife and two small children to run off with the young beauty, and that their elopment (or whatever) caused the horrible deaths of several innocent men and a rebellion (in which the handsome prince's wife and kids were slaughtered and he met his own death) is far less appealing. Not to mention the young beauty's dying too.

We still don't know whether Lyanna was a willing participant in the escapade; though I suspect she was. But it was folly; because in taking her, Rhaegar automatically made his own House, and the Crown, a party to the insult to two other Houses - Stark and Baratheon, hence Aerys' over-reacting (since he was crazy) by torturing Rickard and Brandon (and others) to death, and the rebellions of Robert and Ned (with their supporters) and the deaths of so many others, soldiers, lords, knights, and women and children.

Of course, I never was much of a fan of Helen and Paris in greek mythology, either.

Yes, i bet if Martin wrote a prequel and showed their relashionship together there wouldn't be so much love for them , especially Rhaegar .

[Queen Cersei I]

Melisandre. Taena Merryweather. The Harpy. Dany. Lady Dustin. Olenna Tyrell. Margaery Tyrell. Sansa. Catelyn. Asha. All intelligent and capable, sufficient leaders, dangerous enemies.

Wow... Dany, Margary Tyrell, Catelyn, Asha, and SANSA... all villains? Wow.

Can't argue with you, man. :rolleyes:

[Raksha the Demon]

Yes, i bet if Martin wrote a prequel and showed their relashionship together there wouldn't be so much love for them , especially Rhaegar .

I blame Rhaegar more than Lyanna, in terms of responsibility; since Lyanna was 15 and less emotionally mature than the mid-twenties Rhaegar; also Rhaegar, as heir to the throne, had a moral duty to set an example to his kingdom (an example which would not include running off with another lord's fiancee). Rhaegar was also married, in openly favoring Lyanna at the tournament, he insulted his wife; and he insulted poor Elia even more by abandoning her and their children to play house with Lyanna at the Tower of Joy or wherever they lived.

[Errant Bard]

Wow... Dany, Margary Tyrell, Catelyn, Asha, and SANSA... all villains? Wow.

Quoting: "All intelligent and capable, sufficient leaders, dangerous enemies.", where do you see the word "villain" in that?

(but of course, The "villain" category is pretty vague. Dany did crucify random people in anger, watched her brother burn, supported a raider/slaver warlord, margaery poisoned her husband, sacrificed Sansa and Tyrion and otherwise plays the game of throne very well, Catelyn... remember Pod? Asha... Deepwood Motte was not hers, she wanted to burn Winterfell, she left her brother to die, she's generally aggressive and mean. You say those are no villain, then you bring up Eurona s villain? Weird.

ETA: Anyway, rereading, I think I totally missed the point, last night. So much for posting drunk. I'm a fool. Apologies, too, for thinking that you were trying to prop up your position on the women characters by pointing at who defended those female characters, and hinting you (they) knew what made a female character better than others.

And indeed there's a dearth of moderate female villains. I know why when I look at the shit Catelyn gets for a few words against the boy hero. I hope GRRM pulls through with Arya, Sansa or Dany, they have the making of great Tywin-like villains. (though of course having PoV means people will think them good guys even as them pull the worst actions you can imagine.)

I still disagree that female characters are unbelievable, or that Tyrion is so much more believable believable. His descent into booze, murder and out and out jerkiness is even less subtle than what Cersei goes through. Plus Cersei's last chapter in ADWD

and it continue through Kevan's PoV, shows her back in form

[-jelena-]

Jaime notoriously didn't wanted a Small Council seat, and Cersei knew that (plus there's the whole spending the war in a dungeon thing), Sandor left at the first battle. Barristan was the only competent military leader she had around, and one that had both prestige and knowledge of the inner workings in King's Landing.

She couldn’t have predicted Sandor’s leaving; he had always been Joff’s “loyal dog”. I may be biased when it comes to Barristan. It seems to me that he would have brought them more harm than use with his “honorable actions and behavior” and a true king BS. I can be wrong, though.

So, what do you think it would happen? Would the North simply believe that Ned was a traitor and that they were fooled all these years? Would Robb simply left the Riverlands for the Lannisters?

I can not predict what would have happened. At least they would have had a better ground for negotiations. In Cat and Tyrion’s POV (IIRC) it is implied that a peace could have been settled if Ned hadn’t been killed.

Everyone that matter saw she was responsible for Robert's death for the start. Nearly all the powerful players- Tyrion, Varys, LF, Kevan, Stannis, probably Pycelle- knew about her and Jaime as well, and it's implied that most of the Lannisters knew. If Robert didn't had the habit to turn a blind eye to things he doesn't want to see, he would have realized that too.

And of course, a smart woman doesn't have 3 children born of incest if her husband is the King (and a King known to have killed children), and to think she would have gotten away with it forever and ever shows she wasn't that intelligent in the first place.

Everyone knew but she still remained the Queen. Noone has still accused her for that crime and gave her a death sentence for that murder.

I haven’t read her chapter in ADWD yet, so I don’t know if that has changed. I know what happens, but I don’t know any details.

Look, I don’t say she was a genius, but she did show some capability and intelligence during AGOT. And instead to grow her further and make her to learn more and become more formidable, GRRM increased exponentially only her biggest disadvantages (her arrogance and hatred, hence the bastards; thinking that she is better and smarter than anyone else, etc.), flavored it with some paranoia and made her look the worst way possible in AFFC.

Of course, it’s GRRM’s character and therefore his choice, but I don’t have to like it.

ETA: Anyway, rereading, I think I totally missed the point, last night. So much for posting drunk. I'm a fool. Apologies, too, for thinking that you were trying to prop up your position on the women characters by pointing at who defended those female characters, and hinting you (they) knew what made a female character better than others.

And indeed there's a dearth of moderate female villains. I know why when I look at the shit Catelyn gets for a few words against the boy hero. I hope GRRM pulls through with Arya, Sansa or Dany, they have the making of great Tywin-like villains.

No need to apologize. It was never my point to argue that there are no capable and strong females in ASOIAF (quite the opposite) I was only speaking about Cersei’s “fail” in the villain category. I agree that the category itself is pretty vague. Many factors need to be considered. I personally like to take their main intentions and reasons to act “bad”; existence of any moral fights in their head, consciousness etc. But, I digress, that is for the other thread.

[TheCasualObserver]

Oh god - Tyrion's sex scenes. In COK there's one in every other chapter. Don't get me wrong, I try to tow the "beauty is only skin deep" line but when GRRM makes it abundantly clear how ugly Tyrion is, over and over again, and then thrusts another sex scene on us it gets a bit much. Also the length of the novels and the length of time it takes to write them. Everybody complains about this and maybe if the novels were perfect pieces of literature I could understand the wait but - to wait five years for ADWD to come out and be as bloated and muddled as it was? Shame on you GRRM.

[Alexia]

NVM