Defending Cat, again

[Shaggydog Stark]

It was already posted on Page 3 of this thread, maybe even a few other times. Even without that, it's clear it's exceptional, because after all the circumstances were unique - the extreme grief, the lack of sleep, etc.

Thanks for the link, I read GRRM's response and it still makes sense and fits in with everything that we have said. As usual you bring up good points but I have to disagree with you this time. I agree that the circumstances were exceptional and I do not try to make light of her grief which was very real. However, it still does not excuse her behavior, IMO. GRRM says that she drew a sharp line of where Jon belonged and I think it is reflected in the text. His pleading with her "Please", speaks volumes. He is very aware of this.

Robb surely knew that Cat has spent days in extreme grief, without sleep, and one of the result of that was getting angry and lashing out at people she normally treated kindly, as we see later with Maester Luwin. So it's normal of Robb to expect that Cat might've done something more extreme than her usual ignoring and cold looks at Jon in this case, but this does not mean that behaviour is common. Note that when Jon denied it, Robb immediately believed him without asking "Are you sure"?

Here is where we disagree. I believe that Robb wanted to believe. Sometimes, when you have tension between two people you love, you don't want to see it and you don't want to deal with it, because it might end up hurting one or both parties. It's easier to turn a blind eye. Note how Jon pauses when he says that, "She was...very kind." Robb grasps it and he says "Good" and brushes the whole incident aside. I think Robb knows it for common behavior and is happy to be led off the hook therefore he chooses to believe what Jon says and that's why he doesn't question him further.

But he was a spoiled, ungrateful brat who whines about life even though he has had a much better upbringing than most. The scenes at the Wall before Donal Noye set him straight made this pretty clear. He didn't even realise he was being a bully and that he's had a way better and privileged life than 99,9% of the boys in Westeros. He decided to go to the Wall in big part because he was offended he couldn't sit at the royal table (which is reserved for only few dozen persons in the whole realm) - he had serious entitlement issues.

Once again, I beg to differ, he is a 14 year old boy, who has always been made aware that he is different than the rest of his siblings. It is natural for him to be angry. Yes he has had a better life than most even privileged, but a child needs more than just the material. Being ostracized as a child teaches you that it is okay to treat others in the same manner. If anything I saw him mimicking Cat's behavior towards the other boys. Donal setting Jon straight, just shows that this behavior is unacceptable and had Cat not been the Lady of the Castle, perhaps Mikken would have set her straight :). I think going to the Wall was actually a good thing for him, because it allowed him to be more than just the bastard of the house. He was an equal, and I think after his talk with Donel he realizes that the circumstances have changed.

I think to assume he decided to go to the Wall based on not being seated at the royal table for dinner is making light of Jon's issues. I think it was a culmination of things leading to that point, this is besides the fact that he had to think about his future. I don't think Jon had any entitlement issues. I think he was very aware that he was a bastard, because I don't think Cat ever allowed him to forget, even for a minute.

Thank you very much.

[oba]

Once again, I beg to differ, he is a 14 year old boy, who has always been made aware that he is different than the rest of his siblings. It is natural for him to be angry. Yes he has had a better life than most even privileged, but a child needs more than just the material. Being ostracized as a child teaches you that it is okay to treat others in the same manner.

I can completely understand Jon's reaction. I guess perhaps the difference is that I can also understand Catelyn's reaction, as well.

I also don't think Jon was ostracized. He would have been reminded of the difference between him and his half-siblings every time he was addressed/referred to as Jon Snow. Nothing Catelyn did or didn't do, would have made him a Stark.

If anything I saw him mimicking Cat's behavior towards the other boys.

Hmm. I don't really think it's accurate to say that Jon is mimicking Catelyn's behavior towards him. Jon doesn't hold himself aloof from the other boys in training, he basically goes out of his way to humiliate them.

"They're not my brothers," Jon snapped. "They hate me because I'm better than they are."

"No. They hate you because you act like you're better than they are. They look at you and see a castle-bred bastard who thinks he's a lordling." The armorer leaned close. "You're no lordling. Remember that. You're a Snow, not a Stark. You're a bastard and a bully."

"A bully?" Jon almost choked on the word. The accusation was so unjust it took his breath away. "They were the ones who came after me. Four of them."

"Four that you've humiliated in the yard. Four who are probably afraid of you. I've watched you fight. It's not training with you. Put a good edge on your sword, and they'd be dead meat; you know it, I know it, they know it. You leave them nothing. You shame them. Does that make you proud?"

Donal setting Jon straight, just shows that this behavior is unacceptable and had Cat not been the Lady of the Castle, perhaps Mikken would have set her straight :). I think going to the Wall was actually a good thing for him, because it allowed him to be more than just the bastard of the house. He was an equal, and I think after his talk with Donel he realizes that the circumstances have changed.

Well, it's interesting that one part of Donal Noye's argument is to remind Jon that he's a Snow and not a Stark and to emphasize that, no matter how he's been acting, he's a bastard and not a lordling.

I think to assume he decided to go to the Wall based on not being seated at the royal table for dinner is making light of Jon's issues. I think it was a culmination of things leading to that point, this is besides the fact that he had to think about his future. I don't think Jon had any entitlement issues. I think he was very aware that he was a bastard, because I don't think Cat ever allowed him to forget, even for a minute.

In Westeros society, no one was really going to let Jon forget he's a bastard. This doesn't make it "right", but I think it's a stretch to try and act as though, if not for Catelyn, Jon wouldn't have been keenly aware that he was a Snow and not a Stark.

[brashcandy]

Misconstrue because they interpret him differently than you do?

Is that what we call beating the crap out of people who are unable to fight back these days?

Misconstrue because they interpret him differently than you do?

Is that what we call beating the crap out of people who are unable to fight back these days?

Well I'm glad to know that you draw the line at physical abuse, but emotional abuse gets a free pass. Catelyn can be a bully for 14 yrs to a child, refuse to call his name and be nasty to him, but Jon can't be a bully for a few days to boys his own age. Right, ok.

[brashcandy]

In Westeros society, no one was really going to let Jon forget he's a bastard. This doesn't make it "right", but I think it's a stretch to try and act as though, if not for Catelyn, Jon wouldn't have been keenly aware that he was a Snow and not a Stark.

No one ever made that contention. Of course people would have let Jon know that he's a bastard and should take his place. But growing up as a child in an environment where your father's wife refuses to acknowledge you by name, ignores you and basically attempts to act like you're nonexistent does not help that child's development. This wasn't about reminding Jon that he's a bastard, it was about treating him as though he's not even alive or human or worthy of notice. If people think that it's cool to treat someone like this because they're a bastard then I think those people need to check their value system. Immediately.

[Tyrionthebest]

It never fails to amaze me how people can misconstrue Jon's character. Jon is one of the good guys in Westeros - one of the very very few. When he went to the wall he was sullen and withdrawn and prone to showing off a bit with the other recruits but so what. He had just been separated from his siblings, he grew up thinking he ain't much, and he's now in a place where he can actually be credited for being good at something. After Donal talks to him he realises what he was doing was wrong and corrected it. No more, no less. He doesn't walk arouns sulking at the wall for 14 bloody years. As for having entitlement issues... where, when!? Please tell me where Jon has ever shown "entitlement issues" You must have the wrong bastard. I think you were meaning Ramsay Snow... oops Bolton. :eek:

Look , I like Jon as well but stop trying to defend him like he is a saint . GRRM makes all his characters have flaws and that's what we like about this series .

[brashcandy]

And for all those who want to deny that what Cat is doing is emotional abuse, please see the following link: http://eqi.org/eabuse1.htm

I've also provided an excerpt from that for those who can't be bothered:

Abuse is any behavior that is designed to control and subjugate another human being through the use of fear, humiliation, intimidation, guilt, coercion, manipulation etc. Emotional abuse is any kind of abuse that is emotional rather than physical in nature. It can include anything from verbal abuse and constant criticism to more subtle tactics, such as repeated disapproval or even the refusal to ever be pleased.

• Denying a person's emotional needs, especially when they feel that need the most, and done with the intent of hurting, punishing or humiliating (Examples)
  

• The other person may deny that certain events occurred or that certain things were said. confronts the abuser about an incident of name calling, the abuser may insist, "I never said that," "I don't know what you're talking about," etc. You know differently.
  

• The other person may deny your perceptions, memory and very sanity.
  

• Withholding is another form of denying. Withholding includes refusing to listen, refusing to communicate, and emotionally withdrawing as punishment. This is sometimes called the "silent treatment."
  

• When the abuser disallows and overrules any viewpoints, perceptions or feelings which differ from their own.
  

• Denying can be particularly damaging. In addition to lowering self-esteem and creating conflict, the invalidation of reality, feelings, and experiences can eventually lead you to question and mistrust your own perceptions and emotional experience.
  

• Denying and other forms of emotional abuse can cause you to lose confidence in your most valuable survival tool: your own mind.
  

[oba]

No one ever made that contention.

Um, the post I was responding to said, in part:

I think he was very aware that he was a bastard, because I don't think Cat ever allowed him to forget, even for a minute.

Of course people would have let Jon know that he's a bastard and should take his place. But growing up as a child in an environment where your father's wife refuses to acknowledge you by name, ignores you and basically attempts to act like you're nonexistent does not help that child's development. This wasn't about reminding Jon that he's a bastard, it was about treating him as though he's not even alive or human or worthy of notice. If people think that it's cool to treat someone like this because they're a bastard then I think those people need to check their value system. Immediately.

And no one's said that Catelyn's behavior was "cool", simply that, given the circumstances, it's both unfortunate and understandable. I like Jon as a character. I like Catelyn as a character. I think they're both well written and human. One of the things I liked about the series from the beginning was that while Catelyn wasn't the archetypal evil stepmother, neither was she a saint by any stretch.

If you think this constitutes thinking Catelyn's treatment of Jon was "cool", I think perhaps you need to actually go back and read over the majority of posts in this thread. Understanding how or why a character might react in a particular manner doesn't mean one thinks those actions are "cool".

[David Selig]

It never fails to amaze me how people can misconstrue Jon's character. Jon is one of the good guys in Westeros - one of the very very few. When he went to the wall he was sullen and withdrawn and prone to showing off a bit with the other recruits but so what. He had just been separated from his siblings, he grew up thinking he ain't much, and he's now in a place where he can actually be credited for being good at something. After Donal talks to him he realises what he was doing was wrong and corrected it. No more, no less. He doesn't walk arouns sulking at the wall for 14 bloody years. As for having entitlement issues... where, when!? Please tell me where Jon has ever shown "entitlement issues" You must have the wrong bastard. I think you were meaning Ramsay Snow... oops Bolton. :eek:

I never said Jon is not one of the good guys, so you arguing against a strawman in this respect. But he was a bully for a time - Donal said it straight out and Jon agreed. And he certainly was behaving like a spoiled lordling at the early part of AGOT. To his credit, he took to heart Donal's words and corrected his behaviour, but that doesn't mean his bullying and whining never happened.

Thanks for the link, I read GRRM's response and it still makes sense and fits in with everything that we have said. As usual you bring up good points but I have to disagree with you this time. I agree that the circumstances were exceptional and I do not try to make light of her grief which was very real. However, it still does not excuse her behavior, IMO. GRRM says that she drew a sharp line of where Jon belonged and I think it is reflected in the text. His pleading with her "Please", speaks volumes. He is very aware of this.

Here is where we disagree. I believe that Robb wanted to believe. Sometimes, when you have tension between two people you love, you don't want to see it and you don't want to deal with it, because it might end up hurting one or both parties. It's easier to turn a blind eye. Note how Jon pauses when he says that, "She was...very kind." Robb grasps it and he says "Good" and brushes the whole incident aside. I think Robb knows it for common behavior and is happy to be led off the hook therefore he chooses to believe what Jon says and that's why he doesn't question him further.

Once again, I beg to differ, he is a 14 year old boy, who has always been made aware that he is different than the rest of his siblings. It is natural for him to be angry. Yes he has had a better life than most even privileged, but a child needs more than just the material. Being ostracized as a child teaches you that it is okay to treat others in the same manner. If anything I saw him mimicking Cat's behavior towards the other boys. Donal setting Jon straight, just shows that this behavior is unacceptable and had Cat not been the Lady of the Castle, perhaps Mikken would have set her straight :). I think going to the Wall was actually a good thing for him, because it allowed him to be more than just the bastard of the house. He was an equal, and I think after his talk with Donel he realizes that the circumstances have changed.

I think to assume he decided to go to the Wall based on not being seated at the royal table for dinner is making light of Jon's issues. I think it was a culmination of things leading to that point, this is besides the fact that he had to think about his future. I don't think Jon had any entitlement issues. I think he was very aware that he was a bastard, because I don't think Cat ever allowed him to forget, even for a minute.

Of course Jon didn't go to the Wall only because of not being seated on the royal table, but it's telling that was the final drop that made him decide to go. We see later him thinking how he had always wanted to inherit Winterfell, we see that he consider the common born boys at the Wall to be inferior to him and unworthy of his respect. Sure, his behaviour wasn't a surprise given the circumstances (it's natural to feel superior and to have intitlement issues after being raised alongside the heir of the North and he was your best friend) and customs of Westeros, but then the same can be said about Cat's behaviour.

And as oba said, nobody in Westeros was going to allow Jon to forget he's a bastard. That's the type of society he lives in. Even his siblings, who lived him, made sure to point that often, and so did many people even at the Wall, where this isn't supposed to matter.

As for Robb's reaction, I just think my explanations fits better with what we see of Cat as a person throughout the series, and Martin's explanation of how the things were between Jon and Cat.

[Shaggydog Stark]

I can completely understand Jon's reaction. I guess perhaps the difference is that I can also understand Catelyn's reaction, as well.

I also don't think Jon was ostracized. He would have been reminded of the difference between him and his half-siblings every time he was addressed/referred to as Jon Snow. Nothing Catelyn did or didn't do, would have made him a Stark.

But that's the thing, I do understand Cat's resentment but I think it should have been directed towards Ned. IMO, she chose the wrong target. I don't get how she can be so forgiving of Ned and have a basically warm and loving relationship with him and at the same time direct so much coldness towards Jon, who had no say in the matter of where he was to be raised. It makes no sense. Jon was not ostracized by the rest of his family but he certainly was by Cat. She doesn't want him around and makes it clear that that is how she feels. The constant reminder that he is a bastard is a form of exclusion.

Hmm. I don't really think it's accurate to say that Jon is mimicking Catelyn's behavior towards him. Jon doesn't hold himself aloof from the other boys in training, he basically goes out of his way to humiliate them.

Jon followed the rest back to the armory, walking alone. He often walked alone here. There were almost twenty in the group he trained with, yet not one he could call a friend. Most were two or three years his senior, yet not one was half the fighter Robb had been at fourteen.

Then later:

The more time he spent with them, the more Jon despised them.

Inside, Jon hung sword and scabbard from a hook in the stone wall, ignoring the others around him.

Later...

Afterward he sought Ghost in the loneliness of his cell, and buried his face in his thick white fur.

If he must be alone, he would make solitude his armor.

He doesn't intermingle, he sleeps alone, he despises the others...I would call this being cold and aloof, reminiscent of Cat's behavior toward him.

The second part is when Cat lashed out she lashed out with cruel words, when Jon lashes out it, he does it with the practice swords. I would call this mimicking. The act of lashing out.

Well, it's interesting that one part of Donal Noye's argument is to remind Jon that he's a Snow and not a Stark and to emphasize that, no matter how he's been acting, he's a bastard and not a lordling.

Exactly, he is after all mimicking Lady Stark, so I guess he does come off as a bastard acting like a lordling.

n Westeros society, no one was really going to let Jon forget he's a bastard. This doesn't make it "right", but I think it's a stretch to try and act as though, if not for Catelyn, Jon wouldn't have been keenly aware that he was a Snow and not a Stark.

Well at least we partly agree here. All I am saying is that Cat made him very aware of his status and took it a bit too far, blaming him in essence, it seems to me, for existing.