assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 I don't think so, these quotations are taken from Cersei's thoughts, her mind in other words. She was basically recalling the past for herself, why would she try to cover this up in that case? Doesn't make sense to me at all. That doesn't necessarily mean that she killed her. Melara was the person who died, her prophecy was fulfilled and she was watching (or rather Cersei imagined it) another part of prophecy becoming real. Her being there just reminded Cersei her fear about Maegi. We know, from how Cersei's have unfolded, that Maggy's predictions tend to unfold literally — there's no symbolism or metaphors. She says what she means. She told Melara that her "death" was "right here in the tent," or however it was worded. "Can you feel HER breath?" Melara's DEATH is in the tent and is given the possessive pronoun of HER. It's not just that Melara will die young; someone's responsible for it, someone in that tent, someone who's female. I can't think of any other explanation than for Cersei to have killed her. As to why Cersei never outright says it, I'd argue that that's not really proof or disproof of anything. Ned never says in his POV that Jon is really his nephew, does that make it not true? It's also possible that Cersei mentally blocked out Melara's murder and disconnected herself from it, and seeing her face in the crowd was a way of her guilt coming to the forefront again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azerate Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 We know, from how Cersei's have unfolded, that Maggy's predictions tend to unfold literally — there's no symbolism or metaphors. She says what she means. She told Melara that her "death" was "right here in the tent," or however it was worded. "Can you feel HER breath?" Melara's DEATH is in the tent and is given the possessive pronoun of HER. It's not just that Melara will die young; someone's responsible for it, someone in that tent, someone who's female. I can't think of any other explanation than for Cersei to have killed her. I think you are over-analyzing this one, this could as well mean that her death is really close, that she could probably feel her breath if death were a person. Most popular personification of death is an old hooded woman with a scythe so um, yeah that's where "her" came from. As to why Cersei never outright says it, I'd argue that that's not really proof or disproof of anything. Ned never says in his POV that Jon is really his nephew, does that make it not true? Oh please, not this here... But yes it pretty much makes it not true, this and various other things but lets leave it. It's also possible that Cersei mentally blocked out Melara's murder and disconnected herself from it, and seeing her face in the crowd was a way of her guilt coming to the forefront again. I guess that could be possible, but Cersei didn't look like a person that wants to block someone's murder because she felt bad about it, I just don't see it, sorry. Assuming a cold, ruthless person lies to herself about not killing someone so hard that she actually begins to believe it is just too far fetched for my liking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Except that, like I said, Maggy's other prophecy up to this point has unfolded pretty literally. Why would Cersei's prophecy be so straightforward and Melara's rely on symbolism? I don't think I'm reading too much into it at all — Maggy was straight-up telling Melara that the living, breathing, female cause of her death was there in the tent. Simple as that, no more, no less. You're the one talking about symbolism and personifications. EDIT: I take it from your post that you don't subscribe to R+L=J, in which case there's probably very, very little we're going to agree on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Assuming a cold, ruthless person lies to herself about not killing someone so hard that she actually begins to believe it is just too far fetched for my liking. I don't think Cersei is lying to herself, I think she's just being cagey. Plenty of other characters are cagey about important events in their lives, even in their own thoughts. Ned never once identifies the promises he made to Lyanna, despite the fact that they clearly haunt him. Aerion never once tells us what that damn rusty hinge is about. Jon Connington never once identifies himself as being gay or being in love with Rhaegar in his own thoughts, but we can still very much infer it. The point is, it is GRRM's style to use a character's internal monologue to hint at things, but never fully reveal them. So I'm sorry, but I don't find your argument persuasive. I think you are over-analyzing this one, this could as well mean that her death is really close, that she could probably feel her breath if death were a person. Most popular personification of death is an old hooded woman with a scythe so um, yeah that's where "her" came from. The most well-known personification of death for English-speaking people is the Grim Reaper, who is most emphatically not a woman. And in Westerosi culture, the most common personification of death is the Stranger, who is not explicitly a woman. That said, since Maggy is from the East, it's possible that death is personified by a woman in her culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Poem Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 She killed her.Frog said to Melara "Your death is here". Cersei was her death. Poor Melara. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red fork Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Yep - I'm 100% with Cersei being a killer as a 10 year old.The interesting thing is that this parallels Arya's own childhood killing spree. Yet we cheer for Arya as a spunky survivor just doing what she has too, and condemn Cersei as a sociopathic megalomaniac.Moral relativity, literary dichotomy... fun storytelling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sun Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Yes, Cersie most likely killed Melara. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damar Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Yep - I'm 100% with Cersei being a killer as a 10 year old.The interesting thing is that this parallels Arya's own childhood killing spree. Yet we cheer for Arya as a spunky survivor just doing what she has too, and condemn Cersei as a sociopathic megalomaniac.Moral relativity, literary dichotomy... fun storytelling!Well, you'd have a point if there wasn't a difference between murdering a friend out of jealousy and arrogance, and murdering an attacker in self-defense.I'm sincerely getting sick of this Arya-is-a-maniac-killer bullcrap while others defend Theon Greyjoy for murdering children to avoid embarassment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slurms McKenzie Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Oooh Tywin should have given Cersei a sharp lesson! :angry2: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinebreaker Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I don't think so, these quotations are taken from Cersei's thoughts, her mind in other words. She was basically recalling the past for herself, why would she try to cover this up in that case? Doesn't make sense to me at all. I guess that could be possible, but Cersei didn't look like a person that wants to block someone's murder because she felt bad about it, I just don't see it, sorry. Assuming a cold, ruthless person lies to herself about not killing someone so hard that she actually begins to believe it is just too far fetched for my liking. How many times in Cersei's mind do we see her justifying her behaviour? From her relationship with JAmie to her parenting skills? "It's just for the children", "I do love my children" and it's absolute BS. UTTER crap, she USES her children to gain power as the queen. HEr EVERY motherly action isto cement her role as the queen, while telling herself she's just 'looking out for her children'. When she gains weight, it isn't her fault, it's washerwomen washing her clothes so they shrink but ONLY in the middle... Cersei is delusional. She will justify ANY behaviour to herself, to make herself seem innocent, EVEN in her own mind.Most popular personification of death is an old hooded woman with a scythe so um, yeah that's where "her" came from. Nope. Discworld, Ingmar Bergman, Poe, Stephen King, Shakespeare, Bill and Ted... Death as a hooded, scythe wielder is almost ALWAYS male. The imagery is based on Saturn/Kronus of Roman/Greek mythology. Again a bloke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buried Treasure Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I also think Cersei killed Melara and here is what I think is the reason why: Melara had begged her never to speak of the things they heard that night in the maegi's tent. If we never talk about it we'll soon forget, and then it will just be a bad dream we had, Melera had said. Bad dreams never come true. The both of them had been so young, that had almost sounded wise. - Cersei VIIII think Cersei took this idea and went one further, by killing Melara so no-one else knows her secret. She did not so much as ask her Septa what Valonqar means until Melara was safely dead.I like the idea that idea that it was Melara's murderer with her rather than her going to die that very night. Melara dying later is possibly supported by this line;IMelara had turnes out to be a greedy schemer with ideas above her station. I should not think of her. She's dead and drowned and she taught me never to trust anyone but Jaime. - Cersei VSo Melara may have lived long enough to scheme against Cersei, or she may not have, as Cersei is an unreliable narrator. Her mechanism for avoiding feeling guilt over those she has wronged, is to think about how they betrayed her first -regardless of whether it is true or not: [senelle] repaid my kindness with betrayal. Sansa Stark had done the same. So had Melara Heatherspoon and fat Jeyne Farman when the three of them were girls. I would never have gone inti that tent if not for them. I would never have allowed Maggy the Frog to taste my blood - Cersei VII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelly Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Cersei, in my mind, without a doubt murdered Melara. She is capable of many things even at an early age. At first I thought maybe Cersei indirectly killed Melara by doing nothing for her when she fell in the well, but the part about Melara being a greedy schemer and how Cersei is all like "I should not think of her", sounds like she is repressing something and the way she justifies it by thinking Melara proved she could never trust anyone plus Maegi telling Melara that her death is this very room leads me to believe that Cersei murdered her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red fork Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Well, you'd have a point if there wasn't a difference between murdering a friend out of jealousy and arrogance, and murdering an attacker in self-defense.I rather think that you've precisely re-stated my point - bravo ser! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silmarien Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Yep - I'm 100% with Cersei being a killer as a 10 year old.The interesting thing is that this parallels Arya's own childhood killing spree. Yet we cheer for Arya as a spunky survivor just doing what she has too, and condemn Cersei as a sociopathic megalomaniac.Moral relativity, literary dichotomy... fun storytelling!Um, every person Arya killed in Westeros (other than the guard at Harrenhall when they escape) was in self-defense. And she was struggling to survive.How does this relate to Cersei killing her friend over jealousy? :huh:ETA: I realize I left out the "killings" Arya does in Essos. -Daeron, the NW deserter (she was dispensing her father's justice, there)-The insurance salesman, whom she killed under the influence of a crazy death cult.I do believe she's on a morally dangerous path if she continues her training, and hope someone gives her a metaphorical smack in the face that makes her recall her roots. And then she grabs Needle and returns home to save her family. But thus far, her morality has shown itself to be far less ruthless and evil than Cersei. The comparison boggles my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revan Baratheon Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Well, Martin wouldn't be the first author to treat prophecies in this manner. Cersei's own actions in attempting to prevent/forestall this prophecy may have guaranteed that it will come true.Star wars deja vu,GRRM is george lucas who is actually a FM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raksha the Demon Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Well, you'd have a point if there wasn't a difference between murdering a friend out of jealousy and arrogance, and murdering an attacker in self-defense.I'm sincerely getting sick of this Arya-is-a-maniac-killer bullcrap while others defend Theon Greyjoy for murdering children to avoid embarassment.I see Arya as a scared, angry child who kills first out of self-defense and then later because it is the quickest way out of danger, and still later because she wants to please her Faceless Men mentors (and to become more powerful herself). The merchant she murdered was no threat to her or, as far as we know, to anyone; she did it because the murder of a human being was a training assignment; even though she rationalized her actions by telling herself that he was a bad man. I don't blame Arya; she is a child who has been either on her own or warded by men with questionable morals (with the exception of poor Yoren) while struggling to survive, and witnessing terrible danger, hardship and cruelty. I will blame Arya if she is still murdering strangers as an adult; but for now she gets a pass from me.Theon does not. He was a grown man; and as difficult as his childhood had been, both his native culture and his upbringing as a Stark 'ward' would have disapproved of slaughtering children to save face - even his sister called him on it. I was sorry for Theon throughout ADWD, but that still does not change the fact that he committed a heinous crime for no good reason. Back to the topic - I agree that Cersei murdered poor Melara. GRRM drew the dots for us to connect; I doubt he would have set up that particular pattern - adult Cersei remembering Melara with such scorn, remembering Maggy's warning to Melara, remembering Melara's screams from the well, and being haunted by her during Cersei's 'walk of shame' when she remembered others she had wronged - if he meant to convey that Cersei did not harm Melara. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arland Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I don't think Cersei purposefully murdered Mallara - to do this would have advanced the prophecy Cersei dreaded. But I think she was either glad or non caring when Mallara fell and didn't help her. Malara's life didn't worth for her enough to do something about it. So she did actually contributed to her death by not rendering her assistance. By modern legal standarts if would still be considered manslauther, but probably not premidiated murder. That why Ceresei could be considered Malara's death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always_En_Garde Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I always figured Maggy pushed her into the well to "prove" that her prophecies come true.Advertising, as it were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dark sister Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I see Arya as a scared, angry child who kills first out of self-defense and then later because it is the quickest way out of danger, and still later because she wants to please her Faceless Men mentors (and to become more powerful herself). The merchant she murdered was no threat to her or, as far as we know, to anyone; she did it because the murder of a human being was a training assignment; even though she rationalized her actions by telling herself that he was a bad man. I don't blame Arya; she is a child who has been either on her own or warded by men with questionable morals (with the exception of poor Yoren) while struggling to survive, and witnessing terrible danger, hardship and cruelty. I will blame Arya if she is still murdering strangers as an adult; but for now she gets a pass from me.Theon does not. He was a grown man; and as difficult as his childhood had been, both his native culture and his upbringing as a Stark 'ward' would have disapproved of slaughtering children to save face - even his sister called him on it. I was sorry for Theon throughout ADWD, but that still does not change the fact that he committed a heinous crime for no good reason. :bs: :bs: :bs: -- to just about everything you said.We know, from how Cersei's have unfolded, that Maggy's predictions tend to unfold literally — there's no symbolism or metaphors. She says what she means. She told Melara that her "death" was "right here in the tent," or however it was worded. "Can you feel HER breath?" Melara's DEATH is in the tent and is given the possessive pronoun of HER. It's not just that Melara will die young; someone's responsible for it, someone in that tent, someone who's female. I can't think of any other explanation than for Cersei to have killed her.As to why Cersei never outright says it, I'd argue that that's not really proof or disproof of anything. Cersei is possibly the most delusional character in the series (aside from Theon, who may or may not be insane from his flaying). She's an expert at hiding things from herself, suppressing guilt (Falyse, anyone?) and the question of logic must be begged: HOW DOES SOMEONE FALL INTO A WELL?That NEVER happens, unless the well happens to be on ground level. But GRRM describes all his wells as the normal type we see in most situations. There's a Dunk & Egg story where someone tries to force Dunk into going down a well. I won't spoil it for anyone but let's just say that someone forces you to fall down a well, you don't just trip over backwards and "oops!" you're gone.I also totally agree with Apple Martini that the pronoun use of "she" and "breath" is highly suggested. As another poster said, death is always referred to as male.It's also rather suspect that Cersei refers to Melara as a "schemer" and she gets very angry in the tent when Melara asks if Jaime will marry her...raging psychotwin, mayhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost the direwolf Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I as well believe that Cercei pushed her friend in the well. this shows us how evil she was from a very young age and how she has no problem with her actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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