Did Cersei murder Melara?

[sansadaenerys]

i'm not sure whether i believe that cersei killed melara but i think that if she did, her motive is clear: no one could know that cersei was to be overthrown by a younger queen who was better than her

[Prince of Dragonstone]

Was Cersei's mother still alive at this point or had she died already? I feel like Cersei wouldn't have done this if Joanna was still around. Joanna was the rock that kept The Rock together. After she died, the family began to spiral downward dramatically. Tywin was a great manager of realms and a poor manager of families.

[ambi76]

Was Cersei's mother still alive at this point or had she died already?

IIRC Cersei is 10 when this happens so it's after Joanna's death. I never doubted she killed Melara. During Cersei's walk of shame some bad conscience comes up when she sees Melara dripping wet and looking at her accusingly.

[mrunderhill]

Was Cersei's mother still alive at this point or had she died already? I feel like Cersei wouldn't have done this if Joanna was still around. Joanna was the rock that kept The Rock together. After she died, the family began to spiral downward dramatically. Tywin was a great manager of realms and a poor manager of families.

Not really sure this is particularly accurate. Tywin went downhill after the death of his wife, but Jaime grew up to be a fairly good lad, at least until he joined the kingsguard. Cersei was already a cruel, girl before this. The way she speaks to the servants and how early she starts abusing a baby seem to hint to this.

I don't see Joanna as a saint, but a female version of Kevan.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

Not really sure this is particularly accurate. Tywin went downhill after the death of his wife, but Jaime grew up to be a fairly good lad, at least until he joined the kingsguard. Cersei was already a cruel, girl before this. The way she speaks to the servants and how early she starts abusing a baby seem to hint to this.

I don't see Joanna as a saint, but a female version of Kevan.

The baby she abuses is Tyrion, meaning that this event was definitely after Joanna's death since it was Tyrion's difficult birth that killed her. Jaime was always a good lad except for fooling around with his sister. Joanna was more conscious of what was going on with her children than Tywin was but that's how it usually is with mothers. They have the "mother's intuition" while the father is off being aloof somewhere. What I specifically want to know is if the Melara incident happened before or after Joanna's death. I have a feeling it was after. The girls were 11 and I believe Cersei and Jaime were 9 at the time of their mother's passing.

[Kuther2000]

The baby she abuses is Tyrion, meaning that this event was definitely after Joanna's death since it was Tyrion's difficult birth that killed her. Jaime was always a good lad except for fooling around with his sister. Joanna was more conscious of what was going on with her children than Tywin was but that's how it usually is with mothers. They have the "mother's intuition" while the father is off being aloof somewhere. What I specifically want to know is if the Melara incident happened before or after Joanna's death. I have a feeling it was after. The girls were 11 and I believe Cersei and Jaime were 9 at the time of their mother's passing.

Melara's death did happen after Joanna's death.

[Katkara]

I am absolutely convinced that Cersei killed Melara. Maggy's prophecy is really obvious, and this is exactly how GRRM's prophecies work. I wondered for a moment whether Cersei made someone else push/throw her into the well, since I'm not convinced Cersei could physically do it at that age, but I don't think she would risk that.

I like how Maggy doesn't make any weird, unsolvable prophecies, but simply states everything like it is (or rather, will be), but makes it sound somewhat mysterious.

[The Girl King]

Cersei thinks of her as a "stupid girl" when she blurts out if she'll marry Jaime. Then thinks of her as a "greedy little schemer" my guess is that she might have blackmailed Cersei or little Cersei wanted Jaime all to herself and removed potential competition. Remember Cersei's greedy for love and power. I'd bet the gold of Casterly Rock she killed Melara.

[WinterWarrior]

Cersei killed her because she wanted Jamie. Not that she would have gotten him but Cersei killed her anyway. Cersei is portrayed as always being a loathsome creature, even as a child.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Hey, I'd like to shed a bit of light on
- wells
- falling into wells

- killing in a well
- the evolving of "evil" ways and childlike behaviour

...if I can.

Water wells used to be everywhere in dense populated areas with not enough access to good clean fresh water. Meaning nearly everywhere. While they have been around for 9500 years,
in Western Europe they started waning in importance with the arrival of steam driven and electrical pumps some 120 years ago until 50 years ago when people started to forget about them altogether.

Once they were the main source for life, health and hygiene¹ in dense settlements, so everybody had to go there several times a day unless they had servants for the job.
(1: Agriculture and industry needed vast amounts of water too but did not require great water quality in the way people's health did)

Wells being that important and frequented, they were a more important meeting place than pubs, at least for the people who did not delegate the fetching of water. It was a place to trade news, to meet friends and probably your future spouse.

Water quality being that important, a frequented well would have a tiny protection around it, made of clay or stone or wood to protect things, animals or people, toddlers, children, drunk... from falling in. That would not only endanger the life of the first victim, but through water contamination everyone's life. That is another reason for a hip-high wall around it. It would facilitate cleaning and other maintenance work about the well... and it would allow the young girls and waterbearers to sit on it and take a rest (water is heavy) to chat or dream.

That's our medieeval fairy-tale well and it has been around until the time of our grandparents. Some are still kept in public places and museums.

the question of logic must be begged: HOW DOES SOMEONE FALL INTO A WELL?
That NEVER happens, unless the well happens to be on ground level.

So how would anybody fall into such a well? According to folklore, fairy tale, our grandparents memories of actual happenings and archaeology, it happened all the time.
Imagine you are a much-too-young girl and you are on your 5th trip for the day, it is about noon and you are worn out from the heavy labour and hungry. Lunch will not be too soon so there's no hurry, but a story to hear. You sit don on the well's balustrade and listen to the favourite voice of the story-teller and tired as you are, fall asleep and slip. You fall into it, if nobody is alert enough to catch you while you fall. Maybe you are lucky and the water level is high. You will be pulled out soon...
but if it isn't you might hurt yourself on the way down or when you hit something near the bottom. Tricky!
The air down there may be less than healthy. Do you scream? Take in a lot of gas? Ugh.

Now think of being the Grim Reaper: why not just pull the girl's feet up, doesn't need much of an effort, she'll lose balance and there's nothing to stop her fall. Not much of a job, was it?

As I said, that happened much too often so people were probably well trained in rescuing from wells. So it needs the absence of other people to lose a life to a well ... and you'd lose that well, too.

Nice kick in the teeth to the people who swear up and down what a poor put-upon girl Cersei was before Robert ruined her — physically assaulting her newborn brother and murdering a fellow child.

Have you seen children building small groups and acting against the other group? Have you seen how careless they can be?

On this continent at this time, you cannot hold 13 year-olds responsible for manslaughter or murder, because they aren't conscient enough to fully understand what they are doing nor endure a punishment. It is well reasoned, I assume.

The enumeration of the acts alone does not blacken Cersei's soul as it is. It is the lack of community control: no one notices and tells her that it is wrong, nobody around to explain or excerce consequences. She's getting away with it! Wrong deeds going well and somewhat unreflected. So there's the down spiral.

Cersei's definitely wicked.

But the argument is also valid: part of the responsibility is in her upbringing. So she did neither evolve a moral set of values nor an economic one.²
She is the logical product of her own world.
Yes, she is murderously insane: She is the shining mirror image of that particular cage she is living in.
(2: Compare to Stannis and Davos talkinf about doing justice for treason: Putting lots of people to death or have them raided and raped for the treason of their liege lord may be justifyable within the law, yes, but it does you no good, whatsoever. Not in future alliances. nor economically (catch a cow for milking, o.k. but do not kill it). So they don't do it. Stannis says he will have take up the matter with only the lord's person, not with his kin)

[tl;dr]

Wells were in the centre of community attention.

Falling into wells did happen universally and often, but did not need to be fatal.

Killing in a well was particularly unwise as you'd lose the well, but otherwise easy peasy.

Cersei definitely lacked moral authority and guidance as a child - she still has a kid's moral compass.

[Sansa_Stark]

Given that Maggy flat-out told Melara that her death was "in the tent," the death is anthropomorphized to be female and Cersei explicitly remembers the sounds Melara made when she was drowning in the well, I think this is one of the more obvious implied events in the series. I highly doubt it's ever outright confirmed, but everything adds up. Nice kick in the teeth to the people who swear up and down what a poor put-upon girl Cersei was before Robert ruined her — physically assaulting her newborn brother and murdering a fellow child.

You should also look at Cersei's behavior whenever she interacts with Maggi.

Seriously, there was something wrong with her from an early age.

Don't blame Robert for "ruining" Cersei people

Blame Cersei for being Cersei.

And another gem. "And you're just a milk cow, you can't tell me what to do. Be quiet or I'll have my father cut your tongue out. A cow doesn't need a tongue, only udders." Oberyns account of Cersei.

[The Sleeper]

It can be inferred but I'm not sure to be honest. About Maggy referring to death as she, she is not the only one. When Barristan sees Belwas after he had been poisoned he thinks

Last to come, Strong Belwas lumbered into the hall.

The eunuch had looked death in the face, so near he might have kissed her on the lips.

Martin has refferring to death in the feminine is not exclusive in Cersei reminiscing the prophecy, so the choice of gender may or may not point to Cersei.

[Mikkel]

Martin has refferring to death in the feminine is not exclusive in Cersei reminiscing the prophecy, so the choice of gender may or may not point to Cersei.

That may be, but there's nobody else in the tent with them - so the use of "she" in reference to Melara's death may not "prove" it's referring to Cersei, but the fact that there's only Melara and Cersei there does prove it. Assuming you assign Maggy's prophesies any value at all of course.

[Winter's Knight]

Not really sure this is particularly accurate. Tywin went downhill after the death of his wife, but Jaime grew up to be a fairly good lad, at least until he joined the kingsguard. Cersei was already a cruel, girl before this. The way she speaks to the servants and how early she starts abusing a baby seem to hint to this.

I don't see Joanna as a saint, but a female version of Kevan.

Jaime spent a large portion of his childhood away from Tywin though. He went off squiring at ten or so.

[Sansa_Stark]

Jaime spent a large portion of his childhood away from Tywin though. He went off squiring at ten or so.

Cersei was already cruel and arguably a monster by ten or so years old though.

[The Sleeper]

That may be, but there's nobody else in the tent with them - so the use of "she" in reference to Melara's death may not "prove" it's referring to Cersei, but the fact that there's only Melara and Cersei there does prove it. Assuming you assign Maggy's prophesies any value at all of course.

Not if the feminine is common usage for death in ASoIaF world.

[Mikkel]

Not if the feminine is common usage for death in ASoIaF world.

Considering her death is "there that night", but Melara doesn't die until some time later, it only makes sense if Maggy is referring to the person causing her death when she talks about "her being there". Otherwise she should have said something like "your death will be here soon", not that she's present right now.

[The Sleeper]

Considering her death is "there that night", but Melara doesn't die until some time later, it only makes sense if Maggy is referring to the person causing her death when she talks about "her being there". Otherwise she should have said something like "your death will be here soon", not that she's present right now.

I'm sorry, I misunderstood. I though you were speaking about the gender not the proximity. Still, couldn't the proximity be metaphorical? The impression I had was that Melara died that same night.

Though, I suppose these could still point to Cersei.

[Mikkel]

I'm sorry, I misunderstood. I though you were speaking about the gender not the proximity. Still, couldn't the proximity be metaphorical? The impression I had was that Melara died that same night.

Though, I suppose these could still point to Cersei.

Ah, no I agree that referring to death as she doesn't necessarily mean it's Cersei. I mean I do believe that she's referring to Cersei here, but not because of the use of she. It's strange though, because I seem to remember The Stranger ("Death") is supposed to be male - but maybe that's just my own preconceptions playing in!

[Sansa_Stark]

Ah, no I agree that referring to death as she doesn't necessarily mean it's Cersei. I mean I do believe that she's referring to Cersei here, but not because of the use of she. It's strange though, because I seem to remember The Stranger ("Death") is supposed to be male - but maybe that's just my own preconceptions playing in!

We actually don't know what gods the Maggi believed in though?

Aren't there lots of different "deaths" in the series?