Theon Greyjoy; Azor Ahai Reborn?

[ghost the direwolf]

I would also point out a bit of foreshadowing that could support my theory that Jaime is a hidden Targ/AA reborn. When Catelyn confronts him while he's being held captive, Jaime utters the famous line, "There are no men like me. There's only me". Nothing more than Jaime's usual arrogance? Or could it be something more? There certainly aren't any men like Azor Ahai. There's only Azor Ahai.

Does AA needs to be a targ? I now believe that Jamie will be AA.

[Black Crow]

Comes back I think to the question of whether its a matter predestination. If it is then Dany wins the title hands down, having already fulfilled all the criteria, providing we accept that the sword is metaphorical and represented by her dragons. On the other hand if anybody has the potential to become AA, but hasn't yet passed all the qualifying rounds, then Jaimie has a good chance.

My only reservation, as discussed above, is this very string suspicion that AA is not necessarily a good guy at all. He is, remember, the champion of the Red lot, who are not very nice people, and while I can see Jaimie redeeming his past in some way, he has no connection with or affinity for the Lord of Light.

[The Mother of The Others]

I really like the idea of Jaime plunging Oathkeeper into the chest of Cersei, transforming it into Lightbringer. But that doesn't account for the fire part of it. Maybe it has to do with Catelyn?

What's great about this is it could happen as a natural continuation of the story, without Jaime ever giving a fig about the prophecy or even knowing about it except in dreams that perhaps guide him slightly. Jon stabbing a loved one for a "special sword" is something he'd never do, basically. The dragon queen has enough drama already, and lacks a really good candidate for someone worthy to sacrifice. But Jaime already has a situation brewing where he may come into conflict with the great love of his life and have to sacrifice her to save King's Landing from Cercei's renewed madness. It's perfect. If the BWB comes along, including Sandor & Cat, even better. Then once he's all magicked up that could explain his visions of a the golden hand coming to life again.

my very strong suspicion that AA is not necessarily a good guy at all. He is, remember, the champion of the Red lot, who are not very nice people, and while I can see Jaimie redeeming his past in some way, he has no connection with or affinity for the Lord of Light.

Jaime, then, works better as a complex AA character. The red priests would want AA to be their champion, but they'd discover that we don't always get what we want. They'd try to woo him and he'd show them the fig and call them all camel's _____s. In fact, the mysterious "AA energies" might even select Jaime as the hero of prophecy instead of Jon, Stannis, and Daeny BECAUSE no red priest is yet attached to him. (Their touch befouls?) That'd be an excellent reason for Quaithe's warning: "Daenerys, stay away from Moqorro's 'dark flame' or else you'll be disqualified from the race to be AA." !!!!!!! ) And, the AA phenomenon would be catching Jaime at just the right time, when his noble sensibilities are stirring awake again after years of resignation spent wallowing in guilt over kingslaying. But, you know what, he did the right thing when he kingslayed. You could almost say he "rose above his vows" at that moment to do what was right. He actually was the finest knight in the realm for real, only no one saw him as that after Aerys' murder--including himself. True, there was that kid-dropping incident as his low point. But he's since dissociated himself from Cercei and the moral slumming that went along with his secret relationship with her. So he's no longer a part of the mess that led him to drop a kid from a lethal height. Lately his focus is to be worthy again, and he's living up to it. Like in Christianity, will the seven give him a second chance as long as he's truly repented??? The loss of the sword hand was a complete loss of self definition. But then he rebuilt his identity, didn't he? The best knight in the realm perservered----it was only his connection to past misdeeds that had been severed. That woefully misguided knight was what got lopped off with the loss of the hand. When he rebuilt, he came back right, worthy of the gods' blessing.

He'd have the strength of character to do the right thing now, BlackCrow, perhaps being the one guy capable of 'handling' the AA burden without losing control and becoming a detriment to the realm like you foresee happening. He'd be willing to set aside the power, or throw himself off a cliff when necessary, or pass whatever steep AA challenge came along which most men would fail due to their inherent selfishness. (I'm not saying Jaime is Jesus, I'm just saying that he's in a very good place mentally right now, and would probably be the wise choice for the gods to settle on at present.)

[Boy and Girl Wadish]

Somebody with a significant ammount of the blood of dragons is AA reborn imo. So that leaves Dany, Aegon, and Jon Snow if you beilieve Jon is the daughter of Ned's Sister and Rhaegar. I'd be shocked if it wasnt one of them.

You mean son, right? :) I thought I was sleepy.

[Danyl Stark]

I'm Azor Ahai reborn, the Prince that was Promised, the Stallion that Mounts the World, I'm the Hooded Figure, The last Targaryen & I'm Coldhands, I killed Balon Greyjoy, I destroyed Valyria, I'm Robb Stark's heir, I killed little Walder, I'm also the Night's King

[lyvyathan]

Jaime is the hidden Targ, equivalent to Egg (Aegon the Unlikely) and is AA reborn.

He was reborn amidst smoke and salt when his hand was cut off; the major turning point in his life that sent him down the path of redemption.

I disagree. Nearly everyone gets a reborn/redemption moment in the book.

Bran falls down, breaks his body but is reborn as a greenseer/warg

Ned turns down his honor to save Sansa

Beric gets killed then resurrected

Catelyn gets killed and gets an improvement on her sense of logic

Sansa gets transformed from Paris Hilton to LF's protege

Even Vargo gets a transformation too when he's turned into bear poop, a vast improvement.

Sandor goes down and becomes a monk tilling vegetables from hero to hippy

The idea that Cersei and Jamie are secret Targ is so far fetched to be beyond belief. Tywin saw them emerging out of his wife's vagina.

[The Mother of The Others]

Nice vagina reference. That would make them targ bastards. (Which they've certainly behaved like. :cool4: Cercei with the insanity. Jaime dragonish with some gold Lannister glitter and some darkness.)

[Pliskin]

The idea that Cersei and Jamie are secret Targ is so far fetched to be beyond belief. Tywin saw them emerging out of his wife's vagina.

We know Aerys actually loved Tywin's wife (and Joanna wasn't likely to tell Tywin, he would have killed her and both the twins I think :D ), so it's not so far fetched...

Though, I don't believe it.

[lyvyathan]

Nice vagina reference. That would make them targ bastards. (Which they've certainly behaved like. :cool4: Cercei with the insanity. Jaime dragonish with some gold Lannister glitter and some darkness.)

Cersei wasn't insane. She was just proud, stubborn, wilful, jealous, prone to rash and irrational decisions and considering any form of criticism a personal affront - those are very normal female traits :D

[tearloch]

This may be a bad place to mention this, but I just had a revalation of sorts on who will be AA reborn: Most think it is Dany, and the smoke and salt stuff is either from Dragonstone (island-salt & volcano-smoke) or the Dothraki sea (salt-tears & smoke-funeral pyre)....the Dothraki sea side also has the red comet going for it (which Dragonstone lacks). Alot think it is Jon, and the smoke and salt stuff is at the wall....smoking wounds, salt in the storerooms, knight with stary banner bleeding as Won Won cruches his bones [to make his bread]....and some other ideas on this one. Some think it is Jaime, although I don't know 100% follow the thinking on that with respect to the prophesy....salt at the table with Roose and smoke being steam in the bath with Brienne seems like a big leap on that one.... The point is, that those are the 3 best options for AA reborn based on what we know and/or want to believe. They all take a leap of faith here and there, and all involve fan favorite characters. But what if AA reborn is someone else? Someone none of us would expect? Someone that is not really a warrior in the classic sense. Someone who is not noble by birth. Someone who has lost almost everything, and is himself VERY skeptical of the AA prophesy..... What if AA reborn, is in fact..........wait for it............Davos Seaworth! What a classic storyline this would be......the red comet came at the start of the first book....and was in the sky when Davos SHOULD have died on the Blackwater. He was engulfed in fire, and swept out to sea. By all accounts, he should be dead, right? But then he mysteriously finds himself reborn on this little rock in the ocean.....he is changed. He is different somehow after this. He no longer has his bag of fingerbones, which seemed to define him before. He practically commits suicide with his open defiance of Melisandre and even Stannis at times. He is the one that pushed Stannis to go to the wall....to protect the realm. Thinking about the AA story, in the creation of Lightbringer, I found it odd that everyone seems to take AA as a noble. What if he wasn't. Would a noble lord be forging his own weapons? For weeks and months at time? That sounds like a blacksmith to me, more than any Lord, or even Knight, that I have ever heard of. I was also thinking about some possible future events. Davos loves Stannis more than any other example we have seen of a vassal to their lord. What if Davos ends up killing Stannis, and creating Lightbringer in the process? (BTW, I have never been sold on this since I don't think this needs to be done to get Lightbringer now, since it has already been made). Anyway, there it is. AA reborn = Davos Seaworth, The Onion Knight, Lord of [some obscure place]

[EDIT: I noticed someone already mentioned this idea briefly on page one of this thread, so I can't take full credit for it, but my explanation still stands.)

[tearloch]

Sorry, I forgot this part: Melisandre seems to have came directly to Dragonstone becuase she believed AA reborn would be found there. We have seen Melisandre misread visions before. She naturally would assume that AA would in fact be a Lord....one with King's blood in his veins....er go Stannis. But Davos is also linked to Dragonstone as Stannis' man, and by most accounts, his only real friend and trusted advisor. Mel had it right that she would find AA on Dragonstone, but it is not who she thought it would be.

[mikehendo]

As I said before, I think its a double-bluff, in that she is indeed AA. Yes she looks too obvious to be true, but from the outset the assumption has been that the prophecy is neutral in saying that the world is in danger and that AA will save the day, when in fact its the followers of R'hllor, the Lord of Light predicting that their champion will arise and win the final battle against the darkness (and Ice).

What GRRM has said of course is that nothing is as clear cut as it seems and there are plenty of indicators that while Mel and her compatriots are followers of the light there's precious little sweetness to go with it and a glorious victory by AA could turn well out to be a bad thing and that's where I think the double bluff comes in because while everybody is, quite naturally, focussing on the question of who is AA, they're not paying enough attention to the real question of what is AA - really.

Oh, I completely agree that nothing is clear cut in the books. And I Think you are probably correct in believing that AA is not the hero that will save the day, mostly because I do not trust the red priests. They are too self-righteous, and too willing to burn anything that stands in their way, which does make them a good ally for Dany if she stops fighting the instincts of her dragons.

Sorry, I forgot this part: Melisandre seems to have came directly to Dragonstone becuase she believed AA reborn would be found there. We have seen Melisandre misread visions before. She naturally would assume that AA would in fact be a Lord....one with King's blood in his veins....er go Stannis. But Davos is also linked to Dragonstone as Stannis' man, and by most accounts, his only real friend and trusted advisor. Mel had it right that she would find AA on Dragonstone, but it is not who she thought it would be.

That is indeed an interesting theory. I hadn't thought about Davos in terms of the coming AA, but you do make a strong case. His trials and rebirth make him just as likely as any of the others to be AA. He is also on his voyage to save Rickon, who could unite the North and expel the influence of KL. I am very curious to find out how Rickon has changed since he was last mentioned. GRRM has focused a lot on Bran and has seemingly forgotten that Rickon even exists. I expect Rickon to emerge as a power player of sorts, even if he is still rather young.

[raenasnow]

i hate to break it to you guys but the ghost of high heart prophesied that azor ahai would come from aerys' and rhaella's line, which is why their dad paired them together. in that case, the options are:

jamie and cersei, if you are crack pot enough to actually believe that they're aerys' bastard, which i absolutely don't.

rhaegar or viserys, who are both dead

aegon, if he is real, which i do think

dany, who is the logical candidate, but too obvious

and jon, if you think r+l=j, which i do, considering it wasn't that obvious and therefore it would happen. plus, we all know he isn't dead, which means he needs a reason to come back.

davos, bran, etc. out of the question

[Pliskin]

i hate to break it to you guys but the ghost of high heart prophesied that azor ahai would come from aerys' and rhaella's line, which is why their dad paired them together. in that case, the options are:

jamie and cersei, if you are crack pot enough to actually believe that they're aerys' bastard, which i absolutely don't.

Well, you said it, it's Aerys & Raella's line. So it couldn't be Jaime or Cersei since they are Joanna's children.

[raenasnow]

people think that they're aerys' bc "he took liberties with the bride" (paraphrase, paraphrase) on tywin's wedding night. i don't think they're bastards, just appeasing some speculators.

[mikehendo]

Actually it is the Prince who was Promised and not Azor Ahai that the Ghost of High Heart prophesied. Which means that any one of the characters could be AA, but the Prince has to be either Jon, or Jaime.

pg 300, bottom of the page.

"Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince that was promised would be born of their line."

Nice try though, raenasnow.

edit: or rather, the prince has to be either Jon, Jaime, Aegon, or thew now dead Viserys. I really hope that it is not Viserys though because it would be yet another broken prophecy.

[ARYa_Nym]

We haven't heard the PWWP prophecy yet except for the clue that it's a song of Ice and Fire. I think it might be the same as AA because Dany fits that better than anyone else so far. It would be coincidental if they're different prophecies.

[mikehendo]

Pg 300 of ADWD mentions the PWWP prophecy. Bottom of page 300.

[ARYa_Nym]

We know that the PWWP will be born from Aerys and Rhaella's line but we don't know anything specific about the actual prophecy. What is the song of Ice and Fire? What is the PWWP supposed to do? Aemon thinks that Dany is the PWWP so he must have known what it says.

[mikehendo]

Or he is desperate at the thought of another Targ ruling. Especially after he finds out about the dragons. However, she is not a prince.