Unpopular Opinions IV

[brashcandy]

So these were some of the last unpopular opinions floating around the recently closed thread:

- Margaery Tyrell is a scheming little minx (we suspect) and needs to be found guilty of something.

- Some people actually like Daario - his affection for Dany seemed genuine.

- Arya can stay in Braavos - does she really matter anymore?

- It would be hilarious to hear the collective gasp from fandom when it is revealed that Jon Snow really is Ned Stark's son.

And my personal unpopular opinion for the day:

What's the big deal with Tommen? I think he's a sweet boy and all, but really he needs to grow the hell up. Signing things because you like to play with ink isn't going to cut it in this world. I don't think Tommen is a little kid that needs to grow up, I think Martin is clearly showing that even if he was older, Tommen would still be ineffective, wishy washy, and a pushover. Comparing him to Bran, it's night and day. Bran actually takes on his responsibilites properly and thinks critically. So no free pass for Tommen just because he likes to play with kittens. I'd rather Sweetrobin live, than Tommen; at least the former shows some spunk and spirit.

[eyeheartsansa]

I was one of the people who likes Daario. He may or may not be best for Dany, but I like him nonetheless. I hope he will be back for WoW.

I think jon is Ned's.

Sweetrobin is a little spoiled turd and is not going to amount to much of anything. Spunk and spirit? Hardly! He's a whiny little bitch and Sansa is a saint for putting up with him. It's not his fault, obviously, but

Agreed Tommen needs to grow up, but it is hardly his fault. I wouldn't say he's been surrounded by awesome role models. who is left in KL to look after him?

with kevan gone, Is Cercei still getting shipped to Casterly Rock, assuming she wins the trial?

. Maybe one day we'll see Jaime actually start acting like his father. That's something I'd like to see.

[Draeconite]

I think, as a part of his transformation, Jamie will tell Tommen he is his father.

[Alexia]

Sweetrobin is a little spoiled turd and is not going to amount to much of anything. Spunk and spirit? Hardly! He's a whiny little bitch and Sansa is a saint for putting up with him. It's not his fault, obviously, but

That's not unpopular; in fact, that is quite a popular opinion.

Here's an unpopular opinion for you -- I love Sweetrobin and I want him to survive LF's machinations. I want Sansa to stand up for him and not let LF kill him. She helped Lancel during the battle and he was her enemy, surely she can save her orphaned cousin's life from the man who is progressively killing and brutalizing more and more members of her family.

I think the Sweetrobin is just a spoiled kid who would do a lot better with proper discipline, fresh air and exercise. I actually thought LF would be good for him (the lord will eat porridge and be grateful for it) until I realized that LF planned to kill him.

[Silverin]

I don't really think it is bad that Tommen is yet that immature. Since according to Westeros laws he cannot rule for at least 5-7 (I don't know, from what age will he start practice ruling? 14, 16?) years, so his abilities now don't have any negative effect on the kingdom. He has years to learn how to rule, before he can practice it. And before anyone starts to say how bad he is, he at least wants to learn. It is Cersei that tries to put him back in his place as a child. But when he gets away from her (influence of Marg mainly), he showed that he wants to learn and wants to become a good King, and what is the most important (well at least in my opinion) he knows that until he is young and inexperiencend he shouldn't rule!

I think rulers who has no idea how ruling is done, yet already practicing their authority without realising just how hard and how big responsibility it means are far worse.

Back on unpopular. I love Margaery, I don't understand why so many wants her loose her head.

Was it so sinister that she influenced Tommen to wanting to become a good ruler?

Is it so bad that she is trying to infulence him to study and understand how ruling is done?

Why is it so bad that she wants to make a king from him who knows how to rule, and nice to the common folk and beloved?

Honestly I think out of all the female characters Marg is the one I think who has the best ability to rule and she has the biggest understanding about politics and image and those. She is capable, smart, knows how to deal with people, wants to be a beloved monarch.

What is this shemeng everyone talks about? The only sheming she was part of was Joff's death. And i don't fault her for that, he would have made a horrible husband and a horrible king.

So I don't get why would she deserve death.

Cersei was ordering the murder of innocent children, and was doing an extremly bad job as a queen, so i don't fault Marg for trying to take the power from Cersei. On the other hand I cheer for her in it.

[1234567]

Tommen has never been trained how to rule and with the current scheming in KL none of the remaining Lannisters were even bothering to try. The only people who did try to teach him anything were the Tyrells. The Tyrells will prove to be even more ruthless than the Lannisters.

The Tyrells will bend knee to Aegon and to show their loyalty and free up Margery for marriage number 4, they will kill Tommen. Or arrange an accident for him and the kittens.

Margery is a very sweet character. No rational reason for my dislike of her! The Tyrells play the Game and I would just like them to lose a few pieces for a change!

[eyeheartsansa]

I haven't' heard yet of the Tyrells doing anything as bad as the Lannisters have done. To me, laying the Riverlands to waste via Gregor & co. is pretty unforgivable. So far I like house Tyrell, and don't really have a problem with them taking over, the way things are going right now. I don't see any reason for them to kill Tommen if they can just rule through him, which it looks like is going to happen.

[brashcandy]

Sweetrobin is a little spoiled turd and is not going to amount to much of anything. Spunk and spirit? Hardly! He's a whiny little bitch and Sansa is a saint for putting up with him. It's not his fault, obviously, but

Agreed Tommen needs to grow up, but it is hardly his fault. I wouldn't say he's been surrounded by awesome role models. who is left in KL to look after him?

I just think Tommen is weak full stop. We can't blame Sweetrobin for the way he is - he grew up with Lysa as a mother! She spoiled him, and sheltered him completely, and made him believe that he's entitled to whatever he wants. Sure Tommen has a more quiet, tractable disposition, but that's the problem. I don't want him to turn into a bully or a monster like Joffrey, but he seems to have absolutely no awareness of the role that he has been thrust into, and doesn't even try to pretend to know what is going on around him.

If Tommen at least attempted to read the letters he was asked to sign, I would be happy. It would a show a little boy willing to learn and not be at the mercy of his advisors. And I do think that growing up in a royal court environment should have made him a lot more in tune with political intrigues and so on. He didn't have to be out like Bran watching heads get cut off, but surely he may have taken some interest in the role of the small council etc etc.

[Alexia]

Tommen is eight years old. I don't expect eight year old children to read legal documents; that is completely unreasonable. Also, Tommen tried to learn about what he was doing -- he wanted to sit in on the small council meetings to see what is going on. That is a young boy who is willing (indeed, anxious) to learn and not be at the mercy of his advisers.

[eyeheartsansa]

I'm not defending Tommen so much as saying that Robin would be worse - his fault or not. It's not really Tommen's fault either for not being especially bright; I think general intelligence is the issue in Tommen's case. It's not like he's 'special ed' dumb, but simply not bright or mature enough to learn what he needs to learn. He is going to be a puppet king, most likely.

Yeah, I think if you're properly educated and are being groomed to be king, you should be able to read some legal documents and understand the gist of them. If you're smart, that is. The trouble is nobody seems all that invested in Tommen's education, or at least none of the Lannisters.

[brashcandy]

I don't think Marg is sweet at all. Sansa Stark is sweet, Marg is conniving. Not that this is why I don't like her - I dislike the entire Tyrell family - and indeed one needs to be a little conniving to succeed in this type of environment.

My issue with the Tyrells is that on a whole, they all seem to be the most scheming, power hungry, do whatever it takes (no matter the cost to whom) family in Westeros. You have Mace as the head - a man who could be like Tywin if he had the smarts for it, and then there's Lady Olenna, another all- for- the family manipulator- who was fine with sacrificing Sansa for her precious Margaery.

Margaery, well, her desperation to be a Queen to any husband just puts me off the girl. I'm not buying the virginity story either.

[Eyron]

In tommens defence - he did stand up to Cercei when she said she wanted to rip Margaerys tongue out. He showed a little courage there, but ended up whipping Pate for it of course, not his fault though.

I'm not sure about Margaery, is she the scheming one or is she mostly a puppet to her family? I think she is in on some of the Tyrell-operations, otherwise she was really brave to marry Joffrey... But so far I have not seen her do anything too terrible, and I don't think she decides who she is to marry frankly.

Agree that it will be fun to see the uproar on the board if Jon is in fact Neds bastard! I can't wait...

[brashcandy]

Tommen is eight years old. I don't expect eight year old children to read legal documents; that is completely unreasonable. Also, Tommen tried to learn about what he was doing -- he wanted to sit in on the small council meetings to see what is going on. That is a young boy who is willing (indeed, anxious) to learn and not be at the mercy of his advisers.

Well if he wanted to sit in on the meetings then my statement that he's not willing to learn at all was obviously incorrect, and Marg does seem to be making an effort to teach him. However, he doesn't have to understand the legal documents to at least be interested in what they are saying. Ask someone to explain what he is signing instead of simply wanting to play with ink. Even if they lie to him, still show some interest. Being 8 or 9 cannot excuse wilful blindness.

[Alexia]

Margaery, well, her desperation to be a Queen to any husband just puts me off the girl.

I don't think Margaery wants to be queen and neither did LF. I thought it was obvious that she had no choice about it and was being used by her father and the various men in her life. Lady Olenna didn't support getting involved in the war with Margaery at all either, and the fact that they murdered Joffrey rather than let that marriage go forward shows that she didn't want to be queen to any husband at all. It seems like a bit of blame the victim, there.

Not that I care for Margaery all that much, especially after her treatment of Sansa both in framing her for the murder Margaery committed, and after her marriage to Tyrion. But Margaery didn't have a choice about becoming queen.

As for Jon as Ned's bastard -- small hope, but I would love it. But as long as he never gets within a mile of any throne at all, I'll be happy.

However, he doesn't have to understand the legal documents to at least be interested in what they are saying.

Were you interested in reading credit card contracts or mortgage loan documents when you were 8-9, or in what they were saying? If so, I hate to tell you this but you were a veritable prodigy.

Unpopular opinion: One of my favorite things about ASOIAF is that most of the child characters act like children, and undergo growth arcs into maturity.

[eyeheartsansa]

I'm not sure about Margaery, is she the scheming one or is she mostly a puppet to her family? I think she is in on some of the Tyrell-operations, otherwise she was really brave to marry Joffrey... But so far I have not seen her do anything too terrible, and I don't think she decides who she is to marry frankly.

It seems like Olena is pulling most of the strings here. It is so far unclear to the reader to just what degree Marg herself is involved in the Tyrell scheming. I'm kind of defending the Tyrells, because, so far, none of this ambitious "scheming" has resulted in the widespread death/rape/starvation of smallfolk. Most of the scheming involves getting their people on the small council and making the best possible match for Marg.

[Lemon Cake]

Being 8 or 9 cannot excuse wilful blindness.

I have to disagree; I think it does. Well, maybe it doesn't make it excusable, but I do think it makes it quite understandable and forgivable.

[Bourne]

Yeah, I think if you're properly educated and are being groomed to be king, you should be able to read some legal documents and understand the gist of them. If you're smart, that is. The trouble is nobody seems all that invested in Tommen's education, or at least none of the Lannisters.

He's 8. How much economics did you understand when you were 8? What 8 year-old child is going to read congresses next healthcare bill? I understand what your saying, but I think it's too much to ask an 8 year-old kid to take an interest in politics, king or not. He's too young to really understand his position.

[brashcandy]

I don't think Margaery wants to be queen and neither did LF. I thought it was obvious that she had no choice about it and was being used by her father and the various men in her life. Lady Olenna didn't support getting involved in the war with Margaery at all either, and the fact that they murdered Joffrey rather than let that marriage go forward shows that she didn't want to be queen to any husband at all. It seems like a bit of blame the victim, there.

Blame the victim? This is absurd. When has Margaery Tyrell ever played the victim. She waltzed into Kings Landing, proceeded to court the smallfolk and try to manipulate Sansa. She probably knew Renly was gay, made a pact with him and Loras and was quite happy to be Queen to a man that could never love her. I don't know how Margaery Tyrell is a victim in any form or fashion. She seems to be quite happy with the Tyrell quest for dominance.

As for Jon as Ned's bastard -- small hope, but I would love it. But as long as he never gets within a mile of any throne at all, I'll be happy.

And who should sit the Throne? Is Jon somehow lacking in some way that you would like to share?

Unpopular opinion: One of my favorite things about ASOIAF is that most of the child characters act like children, and undergo growth arcs into maturity.

As said, Tommen might not understand what he reads, but it isn't farfetched to expect him to show some interest in documents being that he's a King.

No one has a problem with children acting like children. But Tommen has been placed in an important role. He has to show some awareness of it.

[Shaggydog Stark]

In tommens defence - he did stand up to Cercei when she said she wanted to rip Margaerys tongue out. He showed a little courage there, but ended up whipping Pate for it of course, not his fault though.

I'm not sure about Margaery, is she the scheming one or is she mostly a puppet to her family? I think she is in on some of the Tyrell-operations, otherwise she was really brave to marry Joffrey... But so far I have not seen her do anything too terrible, and I don't think she decides who she is to marry frankly.

Agree that it will be fun to see the uproar on the board if Jon is in fact Neds bastard! I can't wait...

I like Tommen, but he is talking of "outlawing beets" while you have Bran and even little Rickon acting much older than their ages. I have to agree with Brash, when Bran was sitting in as Lord of Winterfell, he was actually very insightful on certain matters.

I think all the Tyrells are schemers, and I for one think that is why GRRM does not give us a Tyrell POV, to keep us guessing ;)

I too would cheer if Jon turns out to be anyone's but Lyanna's and Rhaegar's but unfortunately, I don't think that will happen so I have resigned myself to the theory....sigh!

[eyeheartsansa]

really, I think ti's a combination of a) intelligence, or lack thereof, and B) lack of good role models/education.

Tommen is roughly Bran's age. Compare Bran, in Robb's absence, holding court and listening to Maester Luwin explain how things work, and then making informed decisions. And then Tommen - this is boring, when do I get to play with the ink stamp?

Bran shows (perhaps) insight and intelligence for his age, Tommen does not. Luwin at Winterfell seems personally invested in Bran's upbringing; whereas most everyone in King's Landing is just using him as a pawn to rule through.