Did Jon find the Horn of Winter?

[Shaggydog Stark]

This is from ACOK:

A length of frayed rope bound the bundle together. Jon unsheathed his dagger and cut it, groped for the edges of the cloth, and pulled. The bundle turned, and its contents spilled out onto the ground, glittering dark and bright. He saw a dozen knives, leaf-shaped spearheads, numerous arrowheads. Jon picked up a dagger blade, featherlight and shiny black, hiltless. Torchlight ran along its edge, a thin orange line that spoke of razor sharpness. Dragonglass. What the maesters call obsidian. Had Ghost uncovered some ancient cache of the children of the forest, buried here for thousands of years? The Fist of the First Men was an old place, only...

Beneath the dragonglass was an old warhorn, made from an auroch's horn and banded in bronze. Jon shook the dirt from inside it, and a stream of arrowheads fell out. He let them fall, and pulled up a corner of the cloth the weapons had been wrapped in, rubbing it between his fingers. Good wool, thick, a double weave, damp but not rotted. It could not have been long in the ground. And it was dark. He seized a handful and pulled it close to the torch. Not dark. Black.

Even before Jon stood and shook it out, he knew what he had: the black cloak of a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch.

Again in the next Jon chapter in ACOK:

He had made a dagger for Grenn as well, and another for the Lord Commander. The warhorn he had given Sam. On closer examination the horn had proved cracked, and even after he had cleaned all the dirt out, Jon had been unable to get any sound from it. The rim was chipped as well, but Sam liked old things, even worthless old things. "Make a drinking horn out of it," Jon told him, "and every time you take a drink you'll remember how you ranged beyond the Wall, all the way to the Fist of the First Men."

I wonder why it was buried under the fist? Isn't the Fist of the First Men supposed to be protected by magic?

Maybe the horn will not bring down the wall, but have something to do with controlling the Others or the wights or the magic held by the Wall?

not sure it's a spoiler but

Like Eurons horn supposedly controls the dragons - and you die from sounding it

This is really interesting! It could be very possible, but I still think it is probably the horn of winter.

[Eyron]

But are we sure that the story of the Horn of Winter is true? How does it work? Is the Wall going to come down from loosing it's magic, or is it just going to crumble from the acoustics? Couldn't it be a euphemism for making the Wall useless in protecting the realm. That's what I was thinking.

Or is it a war horn that will sound the attack, and when it does the Others will come over the wall en masse?

[kephv]

I thought the horn was for "waking giants from the earth". I agree though, the stories don't necessarily have to be true. Maybe the horn is for something else entirely.

[Eyron]

Oh mix up on my part then... I had in mind the horn of Joramun, that was suppose to bring down the wall. So the horn of winter was a different one? Gotta re-read...

[Shaggydog Stark]

Okay now I am confused, isn't the horn of winter the same as the horn of Joramun?

BTW, I love the new skin :)

[Eyron]

Even the whole brain couldn't figure this one out Shaggydog ;)

[kephv]

Okay now I am confused, isn't the horn of winter the same as the horn of Joramun?

It is as far as I know. Maybe it has a few different functions (e.g. one blow to wake giants, two to bring down the wall, etc...).

[Eyron]

It is as far as I know. Many it has a few different functions (e.g. one blow to wake giants, two to bring down the wall, etc...).

Ok so maybe I'm not completely lost then. I'll do the re-read in tomorrow and see where it takes me, Remember the chapter it was mentioned anyone? I mean where we learned the story of it

[Shaggydog Stark]

It is as far as I know. Many it has a few different functions (e.g. one blow to wake giants, two to bring down the wall, etc...).

Aha...thanks.

Ok so maybe I'm not completely lost then. I'll do the re-read in tomorrow and see where it takes me, Remember the chapter it was mentioned anyone? I mean where we learned the story of it

I think the horn of Joramun was one of Old Nan's story, probably in one of Bran's chapters. But I don't know which book. I think it is easier to look it up in the wiki.

[Eyron]

On the wiki it says the horn of winter has both functions, and it is Joramuns horn. So I guess we can speculate in all directions :)

But we have already seen the giants, they didn't need waking. There must be another meaning of waking the giants from the earth, but we can only guess.

We can speculate in why the horn was meant to be found by Jon though, with a little more certainty. The horn and obsidian stuff was left for Ghost and Jon intentionally, I think most of us agree on this at least.

So the one who left it wanted him to find it specifically, not the wildlings, the Others or the rest of the NW. That someone

a thousand eyes and one

knew that Jons loyalty was to the NW, but could also have known that he was about to leave them for a while, and that the horn was to go to Sam or someone else in the NW or even Mance. So it's still unclear why the horn was left for him.

Thee are five possible outcomes from Jon finding the Horn:

1) Jon keeps it for himself, but goes out in the wild and would have no use for it, broken as it is.

2) Jon goes back to the wall, keeping the horn for himself, but can't use it.

3) If Jon left it with random NW, say the LC, it would still have been useless but in the hands of the NW.

4) If Jon was to give it to Mance or random Wildling, it would still be useless, and it looks like they wouldn't have the means to fix it, but it's possible they could.

5) Jon could pass it on to Sam, who has knowledge and means to find out all possible about the horn.

* If the horn can't be repaired, it was no point in having Jon find it at all. It could have been kept wherever it was before. So the horn can be fixed and used.

* If the Others were meant to have it, what was the point in hiding it in the first place. Since it was intentionally given to Jon, someone knows that the horn can be repaired, and the point of Jon finding it must be to take it south to hide it or to get it fixed and used. Either way it had to go somewhere else, that means it must go to either the wildlings or south of the Wall.

* If Mance or some Wildling was meant to have it, the purpose must be that they can repair it and use it, why else should they have it? But why go about the business of hiding it and having Jon find it? It could have been transported to them directly, though the delivery could of course have been intercepted by the Others. So in this case, the safest way was possibly to have Jon "deliver" it, (but not knowing what he was delivering) or that there was no one else who could do it at that point. However, the possibility of the horn ending up with the wrong person and not being used, because nobody knew what it was, is too big. The possibility that they can't fix it, being on the march for war, also speaks for them not recieving it. So I find it improbable that it was meant for the Wildlings.

* So what would the difference be if Mance used it or the Others did (or Jon for that matter), if it in fact brings down the wall or whatever it does? If the point was to use it just to bring down the wall or whatever, this could have been more easily arranged with Mance or the Others if they in fact have the knowledge to repair it. This suggest that either it is important who actually blows the horn (that it can be used for different purposes) and was meant for Jon himself or that it was not meant to be used at all.

* If it was meant to go south, it needs to be hidden or it needs to be fixed there. Given that Jon is permanently stationed at the Wall or ranging north of it (at that point) and he didn't have any particular knowledge about the horn, I think it is likely it was meant for Sam to take with him south. The probability that the horn will be repaired and come back north any time soon is small, so most likely is that it's supposed to hidden away.

And this could have been foreseen by Bloodraven and put in place for this purpose. Coldhands is working with Bloodraven, he probably was the one hiding the obsidian and the horn (in his black cloak) and he was the one helping Bran and co to find the cave. Sam also had help from Coldhands to get back south of the Wall and this would suggest to me that he and Bloodraven is not in league with the Others or the forces of Winter and meant for the horn to go south

What do you think?

[Flockofwords]

The horn is not obsidian. It's a horn. A horn is made of horn. You would need to find an animal made of obsidian to get an obsidian horn.

I also think the small one Jon found is the real deal. And it would have been hilarious if they had been able to make it sound and had heard a certain big rumble...

OMG, I just laughed out loud. That would have been SUPERB!

Anyway, yes - as soon as Jon discovered the cache I was all "...and? And? And clearly these arrowheads and knives and this horn are all going to be Very Useful at some point in the near future...?" and of course the weapons are flagged as great for killing Others, but then NOBODY SEEMS TO WONDER ABOUT THE HORN!

!!!!

Even though there is then all this kerfuffle about an ancient mysterious horn of great power that was buried oooh so long ago!!!!

I mean, come ON, lads! I know that they don't send you chaps up to take the black because you're intellectual giants, but for the love of little green apples, if it were any more blatant it would be jumping around doing a tap-dancing routine whilst singing "I'm the Horn of Winter, I am! I am! Come on now and blow me, young Sam! Young Sam! I'm a great big plot device! Pucker up, boy, kiss my ice! I'm the Horn of Winter, I am! I am!"

...er, sorry, got a bit carried away with myself there. (Oh, God, suddenly The Horn of Winter has the voice of Austin Powers in my head. "Do I make you horny, baby? Go on, blow me, baby! Raaar!"....)

Ahem. Anyway, yes - Sam's still carrying it around with him, even though he has absolutely no good reason to do so. Wouldn't it be awesome if it did something different, like control dragons or something?

(Incidentally, a dragon could be a good source of an Obsidian horn? We don't know what their skeletons are made of, but it doesn't sound much like bone. Just a thought?)

[Shaggydog Stark]

What do you think?

I think we found our next topic to analyze to death ;)

On the wiki it says the horn of winter has both functions, and it is Joramuns horn. So I guess we can speculate in all directions :)

But we have already seen the giants, they didn't need waking. There must be another meaning of waking the giants from the earth, but we can only guess.

Yeah I checked wiki too and it seems they are both one and the same.

We can speculate in why the horn was meant to be found by Jon though, with a little more certainty. The horn and obsidian stuff was left for Ghost and Jon intentionally, I think most of us agree on this at least.

So the one who left it wanted him to find it specifically, not the wildlings, the Others or the rest of the NW. That someone

a thousand eyes and one

knew that Jons loyalty was to the NW, but could also have known that he was about to leave them for a while, and that the horn was to go to Sam or someone else in the NW or even Mance. So it's still unclear why the horn was left for him.

Thee are five possible outcomes from Jon finding the Horn:

1) Jon keeps it for himself, but goes out in the wild and would have no use for it, broken as it is.

2) Jon goes back to the wall, keeping the horn for himself, but can't use it.

3) If Jon left it with random NW, say the LC, it would still have been useless but in the hands of the NW.

4) If Jon was to give it to Mance or random Wildling, it would still be useless, and it looks like they wouldn't have the means to fix it, but it's possible they could.

5) Jon could pass it on to Sam, who has knowledge and means to find out all possible about the horn.

This is very possible. To be honest I never considered

Bloodraven

, I always thought perhaps Benjen had discovered the stuff and buried the stuff before he disappeared. However, I prefer your take and if

Benjen is coldhands then it is even better.

* If the horn can't be repaired, it was no point in having Jon find it at all. It could have been kept wherever it was before. So the horn can be fixed and used.

Definitely! But not just anybody can fix a magical horn.

* If the Others were meant to have it, what was the point in hiding it in the first place. Since it was intentionally given to Jon, someone knows that the horn can be repaired, and the point of Jon finding it must be to take it south to hide it or to get it fixed and used. Either way it had to go somewhere else, that means it must go to either the wildlings or south of the Wall.

I agree that the horn might have been left there to be found later, but I am not so sure that Jon was the one meant to find it. I think that was a coincidence because of Ghost. I think it was buried at the Fist because as a landmark it is not difficult to find again when whoever buried it comes back for it.

* If Mance or some Wildling was meant to have it, the purpose must be that they can repair it and use it, why else should they have it? But why go about the business of hiding it and having Jon find it? It could have been transported to them directly, though the delivery could of course have been intercepted by the Others. So in this case, the safest way was possibly to have Jon "deliver" it, (but not knowing what he was delivering) or that there was no one else who could do it at that point. However, the possibility of the horn ending up with the wrong person and not being used, because nobody knew what it was, is too big. The possibility that they can't fix it, being on the march for war, also speaks for them not recieving it. So I find it improbable that it was meant for the Wildlings.

Okay, I don’t necessarily agree with this but I see where you are going with it. The reasons Jon found the horn don’t really matter now that he did and Sam has it. It’s what Sam does with it now that he has it, that’s important.

* So what would the difference be if Mance used it or the Others did (or Jon for that matter), if it in fact brings down the wall or whatever it does? If the point was to use it just to bring down the wall or whatever, this could have been more easily arranged with Mance or the Others if they in fact have the knowledge to repair it. This suggest that either it is important who actually blows the horn (that it can be used for different purposes) and was meant for Jon himself or that it was not meant to be used at all.

This is really good thinking. I too think that not just anyone can blow the horn. If that were the case, whoever buried it could have blown it. I think if the wrong person blows it, it can have repercussions, like the guy who blew the dragon horn. If we do the parallel thing we did in the other thread, perhaps if the wrong person blows it, he is burned out by cold and turned into something like a wight but not exactly a wight? Something like coldhands?

I am also very curious about how a magical horn can be cracked? Perhaps Benjen blew it and cracked it as a result?

Btw, I have a strong suspicion that the horn doesn’t wake giants but controls them like the dragon one controls dragons. I think the horn doesn’t literally bring down the Wall but that by controlling the giants, whoever blows the horn can bring the Wall down. …it’s a wild guess, I know, but it keeps popping into my head. The reason I think this is a possibility is because Bran the Builder used giants to build Winterfell and I think he used giants to build the Wall itself. So maybe Bran the Builder used the horn to force giants to build these things.

* If it was meant to go south, it needs to be hidden or it needs to be fixed there. Given that Jon is permanently stationed at the Wall or ranging north of it (at that point) and he didn't have any particular knowledge about the horn, I think it is likely it was meant for Sam to take with him south. The probability that the horn will be repaired and come back north any time soon is small, so most likely is that it's supposed to hidden away.

Like I said, it doesn’t matter how it got south, but now that it is, this is interesting. But I wonder if just anyone can fix a magical horn? I think perhaps Marwyn would have been the perfect guy but he has left. I don’t know if anyone apart from the CoTF can fix it now, because I think the CoTF are the ones who made it magical? Maybe Sam brings it back north in the future and Bran can fix it?

And this could have been foreseen by Bloodraven and put in place for this purpose. Coldhands is working with Bloodraven, he probably was the one hiding the obsidian and the horn (in his black cloak) and he was the one helping Bran and co to find the cave. Sam also had help from Coldhands to get back south of the Wall and this would suggest to me that he and Bloodraven is not in league with the Others or the forces of Winter and meant for the horn to go south.

This is very possible. They now know that Sam has the horn so they help him get past the Wall. Very interesting.

[Eyron]

This is very possible. To be honest I never considered

Bloodraven

, I always thought perhaps Benjen had discovered the stuff and buried the stuff before he disappeared. However, I prefer your take and if

Benjen is coldhands then it is even better.

I agree that the horn might have been left there to be found later, but I am not so sure that Jon was the one meant to find it. I think that was a coincidence because of Ghost. I think it was buried at the Fist because as a landmark it is not difficult to find again when whoever buried it comes back for it.

I also have a secret hope that Benjen is Coldhands, maybe he warged a wight or is undead or something. It does not seem to be a popular opinion though :) However my theory does not need Benjen, he would just be icing on the cake.

The CoTF used to give the NW obsidian weapons in the past (perhaps the First men too?). It's not very far fetched to think they would reach out and do it again, but they are stuck in the cave. Since Bloodraven is their present greenseer, I think he sent CH to place the bundle. There is some speculation on this on another thread so that's where it comes from.

There is also speculation on the connection between Ghost and Bloodraven, there is so much that makes me think there is a special bond between them, I can't shake it off. The albinos in Westeros seem to have much in common, Bloodraven is a greenseer bound to life by magic of the north, the Starks and Jon are wargs and Ghost and the other direwolves were not found by coincident in my opinion. It's all connected to magic and the north and mr Rivers is the puppetmaster in the north.

I really buy into the idea that he has been beside the Starks and Jon from the beginning and acted to empower their dormant abilities, by sending them the wolves, and through their dreams.

Now the horn was not in the bundle by accident, who would need to keep a broken horn, and why would anyone hide it if it was useless? I think it was meant to be found with the obsidian, for the reasons I argued in the previous post. Ghost found the bundle, he ran off into the woods and Jon followed, and Ghost does not do much without good reason.

So I think it was meant to be found by Jon and nobody else, that's the basis of my whole theory really. :)

This is really good thinking. I too think that not just anyone can blow the horn. If that were the case, whoever buried it could have blown it. I think if the wrong person blows it, it can have repercussions, like the guy who blew the dragon horn. If we do the parallel thing we did in the other thread, perhaps if the wrong person blows it, he is burned out by cold and turned into something like a wight but not exactly a wight? Something like coldhands?

I am also very curious about how a magical horn can be cracked? Perhaps Benjen blew it and cracked it as a result?

Yep it's wierd that it is broken, and I think there must be a good reason for that, either someone powerful broke it so it couldn't be used, or it simply broke at some point (I think the latter is very unlikely). Also why I think the horn is important. It needs to be hidden away or repaired.

I tried to imply what you said about not just anybody being able to use it, in a previous post, just like the dragonhorn. So that is another good reason for Jon to have it (if he is reborn from ice or undead or a conscious wight or something), if it was meant to be sounded again.

I don't think Coldhands turned the way he did because of sounding the horn, firstly something should have happened shouldn't it (giants, wall falling, somekinda crap anyhow) Secondly I think he should be really dead-dead if he had done it (if we go with the theory that only "special people" can use it ;)

Btw, I have a strong suspicion that the horn doesn’t wake giants but controls them like the dragon one controls dragons. I think the horn doesn’t literally bring down the Wall but that by controlling the giants, whoever blows the horn can bring the Wall down. …it’s a wild guess, I know, but it keeps popping into my head. The reason I think this is a possibility is because Bran the Builder used giants to build Winterfell and I think he used giants to build the Wall itself. So maybe Bran the Builder used the horn to force giants to build these things.

This is very good speculation! The one who can control the giants have the power to do a lot of damage, so it's important that it does not come into the wrong hands. Maybe a giant broke the horn or Brandon himself did it so it could never be used again... I don't think the Wall will just fall down either, but somehow be destroyed and the horn will enable this, like you suggest above.

Like I said, it doesn’t matter how it got south, but now that it is, this is interesting. But I wonder if just anyone can fix a magical horn? I think perhaps Marwyn would have been the perfect guy but he has left. I don’t know if anyone apart from the CoTF can fix it now, because I think the CoTF are the ones who made it magical? Maybe Sam brings it back north in the future and Bran can fix it?

If it could be fixed by the CoTF and they wanted this, I think Bloodraven would be able to find it and have it done, but that's just my assumption from what we know of him. It could of course just have gone missing and they never found it again, but the thousand eyes and one does not seem to miss a lot. That their little helper CH brought Sam and co under the Wall makes me think so even more. One other option I see is that CH hid it in the first place, that he is a dubbleagent, and didn't want it to go to back to the CoTF. But then why did he bring Bran and co back to the cave, if he didn't want to help the CotF?

I'm thinking it's very important that it came south and the how and why is what I'm really trying to figure out :) My underlying premiss for the whole theory is that it was intentionally placed to be found by Jon, and my conclusion is that it was for the purpose of having it taken south of the wall.

This is very possible. They now know that Sam has the horn so they help him get past the Wall. Very interesting.

And it's what made me think of what reason Coldhands and in extension Bloodraven (in my mind they work toghether) would have to get Sam south of the wall. I know they wanted his help to get Bran and co through too, but CH could have taken the horn if it was important somehow and taken it with him back to the CoTF, or sent someone else. Sam was chosen by CH for some reason, and he had the horn. Thats another thing that my idea came from.

BTW It's so good that we don't need spoilers any more!

[fassreiter]

Shaggydog. Just one, one thing I really couldn't cope with in this series (and believe me, I am preparing myself right now to take a lot of such in TWOW) would be a magic horn that would control the giants!!! THE. FREAKING. GIANTS. Freaking enslaved giants! That is sad and horrible beyond my worse expectations. Please don't say things like that.

And if Bran the Builder truly used enslaved giants to build his pryamids Winterfell, I hope the whole thing burns down again.

But I think this story was probably a nod to the Nibelungen and as that I like it a lot.

[Eyron]

Fassreiter!

Are we upsetting you again? :)

[Tin Pony]

Come on now and blow me, young Sam! Young Sam!

Posting a quote out of context FTW

[Shaggydog Stark]

I also have a secret hope that Benjen is Coldhands, maybe he warged a wight or is undead or something. It does not seem to be a popular opinion though :) However my theory does not need Benjen, he would just be icing on the cake.

The CoTF used to give the NW obsidian weapons in the past (perhaps the First men too?). It's not very far fetched to think they would reach out and do it again, but they are stuck in the cave. Since Bloodraven is their present greenseer, I think he sent CH to place the bundle. There is some speculation on this on another thread so that's where it comes from.

There is also speculation on the connection between Ghost and Bloodraven, there is so much that makes me think there is a special bond between them, I can't shake it off. The albinos in Westeros seem to have much in common, Bloodraven is a greenseer bound to life by magic of the north, the Starks and Jon are wargs and Ghost and the other direwolves were not found by coincident in my opinion. It's all connected to magic and the north and mr Rivers is the puppetmaster in the north.

I really buy into the idea that he has been beside the Starks and Jon from the beginning and acted to empower their dormant abilities, by sending them the wolves, and through their dreams.

Whoa! This is great! How did I never see the connection between ghost and Bloodraven???? I also thought that the Starks finding the direwolves was no coincidence, but this is really a great theory. I like it a lot! It makes sense too since we know he is the 3EC as well. I am buying into this as well, but I really need to process it. Something is nagging at me though, why is Bloodraven the 3EC? I mean he is half Targ so why is he the one that controls the ice/north side of things? Have you guys discussed this in the other thread?

Now the horn was not in the bundle by accident, who would need to keep a broken horn, and why would anyone hide it if it was useless? I think it was meant to be found with the obsidian, for the reasons I argued in the previous post. Ghost found the bundle, he ran off into the woods and Jon followed, and Ghost does not do much without good reason.

So I think it was meant to be found by Jon and nobody else, that's the basis of my whole theory really.

Now your previous post makes sense! :)

Yep it's wierd that it is broken, and I think there must be a good reason for that, either someone powerful broke it so it couldn't be used, or it simply broke at some point (I think the latter is very unlikely). Also why I think the horn is important. It needs to be hidden away or repaired.

I tried to imply what you said about not just anybody being able to use it, in a previous post, just like the dragonhorn. So that is another good reason for Jon to have it (if he is reborn from ice or undead or a conscious wight or something), if it was meant to be sounded again.

The last time the horn was used, it was by Joramun. Maybe something went wrong and he broke it so that nobody would ever use it again.

I am quite convinced that not anyone can use the horn, but someone like Jon or Bran.

I don't think Coldhands turned the way he did because of sounding the horn, firstly something should have happened shouldn't it (giants, wall falling, somekinda crap anyhow) Secondly I think he should be really dead-dead if he had done it (if we go with the theory that only "special people" can use it

You are right..it was a wild theory ;)

This is very good speculation! The one who can control the giants have the power to do a lot of damage, so it's important that it does not come into the wrong hands. Maybe a giant broke the horn or Brandon himself did it so it could never be used again... I don't think the Wall will just fall down either, but somehow be destroyed and the horn will enable this, like you suggest above.

It couldn't have been Bran the Builder because Joramun came after Bran. He fought the Night's King with the Stark in Winterfell. The Night's King was the 13th LC of the NW, so this is way after Bran the Builder. I think either Joramun or the Stark in Winterfell might have broken it. As I suggest above, something might have gone wrong and they wanted to ensure that nobody could use it again.

If it could be fixed by the CoTF and they wanted this, I think Bloodraven would be able to find it and have it done, but that's just my assumption from what we know of him. It could of course just have gone missing and they never found it again, but the thousand eyes and one does not seem to miss a lot. That their little helper CH brought Sam and co under the Wall makes me think so even more. One other option I see is that CH hid it in the first place, that he is a dubbleagent, and didn't want it to go to back to the CoTF. But then why did he bring Bran and co back to the cave, if he didn't want to help the CotF?

I'm thinking it's very important that it came south and the how and why is what I'm really trying to figure out My underlying premiss for the whole theory is that it was intentionally placed to be found by Jon, and my conclusion is that it was for the purpose of having it taken south of the wall.

Now that I understand your theory about Bloodraven, that is a good point. Perhaps Sam was supposed to give it to Maester Aemon? He seemed very knowledgeable. Probably not since he is dead...but still maybe the plan didn't go according to plan?

And it's what made me think of what reason Coldhands and in extension Bloodraven (in my mind they work toghether) would have to get Sam south of the wall. I know they wanted his help to get Bran and co through too, but CH could have taken the horn if it was important somehow and taken it with him back to the CoTF, or sent someone else. Sam was chosen by CH for some reason, and he had the horn. Thats another thing that my idea came from.

Yes now it makes sense, but oh my god am I confused! :lol:

BTW It's so good that we don't need spoilers any more!

It's wonderful! Now I can say..."hey everyone Ramsay gelded Theon" without being scared! :leaving:

Shaggydog. Just one, one thing I really couldn't cope with in this series (and believe me, I am preparing myself right now to take a lot of such in TWOW) would be a magic horn that would control the giants!!! THE. FREAKING. GIANTS. Freaking enslaved giants! That is sad and horrible beyond my worse expectations. Please don't say things like that.

And if Bran the Builder truly used enslaved giants to build his pryamids Winterfell, I hope the whole thing burns down again.

Sorry if I upset you fassreiter but there are no nice guys in ASOIAF :cool4:

But I think this story was probably a nod to the Nibelungen and as that I like it a lot.

Excellent analogy! :thumbsup:

[Eyron]

I know I really don't make sense sometimes, like I said before, my fingers don't keep up with my thoughts, and sometimes I forget that other people don't know exactly what's lurking in my mind :lol:

I just checked the thread about Bloodraven and ghost and of course it was in the ADWD forum! So you haven't seen it yet... I read through it but have not gotten involved, sometimes there is nothing more to add. But I have thought about why Bloodraven is the greenseer, and why he is involved with the CotF.

Brynden Rivers' mother is Mylessa Blackwood (Missy) from Raventree Hall.

check this http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Raventree_Hall

That is where that huge dead weirwood is in the godswood, that is covered with crows every night (remember when Jaime met the Blackwoods and the Brackens and the argument about the hills name, should it be called Missys or Barbas teats?) That's the place.

I'm not sure but it suggests that they kept the old gods, when most other riverfolk took to the Seven. I think he has been using those crows since he was young, when he was Hand of the King he was already known to find out things nobody could possibly know, hence the epithet "A thousand eyes and one".

So maybe he knew his destiny a long time ago, or maybe he learned it when he came to the wall, he could have found out about the CotF from spying on them and somehow came to meet them. Or maybe they could contact him like he contacted Bran.

So even if he's a Targ it is not so strange that he ended up in that cave!

Good homework on Brandon, Joramun and the Nights King! We can cross one from the list. The horn was broken by someone, but not Brandon.

Hehe I feel like "screaming" all the spoilers I've been hiding. Those boarders that have avoided the spoilers are in for some chocking truths!

[Shaggydog Stark]

I know I really don't make sense sometimes, like I said before, my fingers don't keep up with my thoughts, and sometimes I forget that other people don't know exactly what's lurking in my mind :lol:

I just checked the thread about Bloodraven and ghost and of course it was in the ADWD forum! So you haven't seen it yet... I read through it but have not gotten involved, sometimes there is nothing more to add. But I have thought about why Bloodraven is the greenseer, and why he is involved with the CotF.

Brynden Rivers' mother is Mylessa Blackwood (Missy) from Raventree Hall.

check this http://awoiaf.wester.../Raventree_Hall

That is where that huge dead weirwood is in the godswood, that is covered with crows every night (remember when Jaime met the Blackwoods and the Brackens and the argument about the hills name, should it be called Missys or Barbas teats?) That's the place.

I'm not sure but it suggests that they kept the old gods, when most other riverfolk took to the Seven. I think he has been using those crows since he was young, when he was Hand of the King he was already known to find out things nobody could possibly know, hence the epithet "A thousand eyes and one".

So maybe he knew his destiny a long time ago, or maybe he learned it when he came to the wall, he could have found out about the CotF from spying on them and somehow came to meet them. Or maybe they could contact him like he contacted Bran.

So even if he's a Targ it is not so strange that he ended up in that cave!

Good homework on Brandon, Joramun and the Nights King! We can cross one from the list. The horn was broken by someone, but not Brandon.

Hehe I feel like "screaming" all the spoilers I've been hiding. Those boarders that have avoided the spoilers are in for some chocking truths!

This is excellent! I swear sometimes I can be so daft! Of course, his mother was a Blackwood and they worshiped the old gods because they are descendants of the First Men! This entire thread is fascinating. I really need to finish AFFC, so that I can reread ADWD and check out the boards. However, instead of reading I spend most of my time here lol.

Hehe I feel like "screaming" all the spoilers I've been hiding. Those boarders that have avoided the spoilers are in for some chocking truths!

Same here, I feel sorry for them but still the spoiler tags were really irritating.

[Eyron]

Aha!

I found the theory of 3EC

http://awoiaf.wester...d_crow/Theories

The Blackwoods were descendants of the First Men, and kept the Old Gods

Edit: you beat me to it :)