Marriage Alliances - Are they still relevant?

[Flockofwords]

I don't think GRRM has any general position like "marriage alliances are bad, marrying for love is better." Many marriage alliances have gone terribly wrong. But what happens when the people in power follow their hearts instead? Consider this passage:

So loveless marriage alliances can screw up a kingdom, but the failure to secure such alliances can have the same effect. I think GRRM's true theme about marriage alliances is that they are what is logistically necessary for stability, but that the human heart sometimes can't abide this.

My goodness, you expressed that beautifully.

Yes, THIS.

Let's face it, folks, a hefty chunk of people in the modern world still get together via arranged marriages - it's not a perfect scheme, but it's at least as likely to end in contentment as marriages founded on the belief that romantic love is the be-all and end-all. It's only VERY recently, as the nature of power and ruling has changed and multinationals have become the new superpowers in place of families, that this kind of dynastic marriage-making has calmed down; as recently as the 80s Britain's heir to the throne was obliged to contract what was essentially a marriage of convenience with a young woman of appropriate lineage and unblemished reputation rather than being allowed to marry the woman he loved.

I find it difficult to imagine GRRM trying to bend Westeros into a template that doesn't include marriage, for the aristocracy, primarily as a system of controlling land and wealth and consolidating power and allegiances, rather than as a private contract between two individuals. Whilst that can suck like hell for the individuals concerned, it's a very effective strategy.

[voodooqueen126]

Which marriage is best and why?

DIscuss!!!

observing some of my friends, I would say that marriages arranged between the parents to the mutual benefit of their children are often very happy. skyrocketing divorce rates in the Western world would suggest that romantic love is a very temporary thing...

Catelyn and Ned was a very happy marriage

Lysa and Petyr was not...

mind you every so often true love does come along and it is worthy of respect and should be encouraged.

[Silverin]

And I just want to add, that a love marriage that we know of went wrong. Doran married for love, but he and his wife live separetly for years now.

[voodooqueen126]

And I just want to add, that a love marriage that we know of went wrong. Doran married for love, but he and his wife live separetly for years now.

Anyone read "Daughter of Persia" by Sattareh Farman Farmaian?http://www.amazon.com/Daughter-Persia-Journey-Fathers-Revolution/dp/0307339742

Because my mother and I listened to it on talking book and I was really excited when Sattereh fell in love with an Indian man and got married because to my young self it seemed so romantic to be defying religious and national differences.

Except they basically ended up moving apart and living in different countries, like Mellario of Norvos and Doran Martell. I was so upset and surprised and my mother said that for them arranged marriages where better.

[brashcandy]

Let's face it, folks, a hefty chunk of people in the modern world still get together via arranged marriages - it's not a perfect scheme, but it's at least as likely to end in contentment as marriages founded on the belief that romantic love is the be-all and end-all. It's only VERY recently, as the nature of power and ruling has changed and multinationals have become the new superpowers in place of families, that this kind of dynastic marriage-making has calmed down; as recently as the 80s Britain's heir to the throne was obliged to contract what was essentially a marriage of convenience with a young woman of appropriate lineage and unblemished reputation rather than being allowed to marry the woman he loved.

I find it difficult to imagine GRRM trying to bend Westeros into a template that doesn't include marriage, for the aristocracy, primarily as a system of controlling land and wealth and consolidating power and allegiances, rather than as a private contract between two individuals. Whilst that can suck like hell for the individuals concerned, it's a very effective strategy.

Of course arranged marriages exist today. The point I am making is that since the series has opened we have perhaps seen two arranged marriages at most that have worked, and ironically these marriages have all been with Westerosi women and "foreigners":

- Alys Karstark to Magnar of Thenn

- Daenerys to Khal Drogo

Every other attempt at arranging a marriage - Sansa/Joffrey, Sansa/Willas, Sansa/Tyrion, Robb/Frey, Dany/Quentyn, Dany/Aegon, Arianne/Viserys, Margaery/Joffrey Asha/Pig :), Arya(Jeyne)/Ramsay, - has brought nothing but suffering, death and disaster down on the heads of those involved. Now, by no means is the solution to this: marry for love! Martin would never be so idealistic as to suggest such a false dichotomy anyways.

What I'm trying to tease out is if Martin is showing that these arranged marriages are no longer beneficial to the expressed purposes that they have traditionally been designed for. For example, Tywin married Sansa to Tyrion for the ostensible goal of gaining the North, but this would have been next to impossible for him to achieve based on what we've seen in the last book.

Quentyn came to Dany offering a pact to secure the help of Dorne in her conquest of Westeros, but besides the fact that the real place she needed it was not in Westeros but in Meereen, there's a valid argument to be made that she won't even need Dorne's assistance. Further, Aegon seems to be making significant inroads in Westeros without Dany's dragons, something that he had hitherto considered impossible.

The Joffrey/Sansa union - that was arranged because of the solid friendship between the Stark and Baratheon Houses - was ironically undone by the callous actions of Robert's wife, not to mention the absolute cruelty of his son, Joffrey.

So I really do think that there's been a trend from AGOT onwards that has shown that these arranged marriages are failing to live up to their own purposes for whatever reason.

[voodooqueen126]

Of course arranged marriages exist today. The point I am making is that since the series has opened we have perhaps seen two arranged marriages at most that have worked, and ironically these marriages have all been with Westerosi women and "foreigners":

- Alys Karstark to Magnar of Thenn

- Daenerys to Khal Drogo

Every other attempt at arranging a marriage - Sansa/Joffrey, Sansa/Willas, Sansa/Tyrion, Robb/Frey, Dany/Quentyn, Dany/Aegon, Arianne/Viserys, Margaery/Joffrey Asha/Pig :), Arya(Jeyne)/Ramsay, - has brought nothing but suffering, death and disaster down on the heads of those involved. Now, by no means is the solution to this: marry for love! Martin would never be so idealistic as to suggest such a false dichotomy anyways.

What I'm trying to tease out is if Martin is showing that these arranged marriages are no longer beneficial to the expressed purposes that they have traditionally been designed for. For example, Tywin married Sansa to Tyrion for the ostensible goal of gaining the North, but this would have been next to impossible for him to achieve based on what we've seen in the last book.

Quentyn came to Dany offering a pact to secure the help of Dorne in her conquest of Westeros, but besides the fact that the real place she needed it was not in Westeros but in Meereen, there's a valid argument to be made that she won't even need Dorne's assistance. Further, Aegon seems to be making significant inroads in Westeros without Dany's dragons, something that he had hitherto considered impossible.

The Joffrey/Sansa union - that was arranged because of the solid friendship between the Stark and Baratheon Houses - was ironically undone by the callous actions of Robert's wife, not to mention the absolute cruelty of his son, Joffrey.

So I really do think that there's been a trend from AGOT onwards that has shown that these arranged marriages are failing to live up to their own purposes for whatever reason.

Also

Ned/Catelyn is a hugely successful marriage that is like a lot of real life arranged marriages.

[brashcandy]

Also

Ned/Catelyn is a hugely successful marriage that is like a lot of real life arranged marriages.

Ned and Catelyn were married before the series started, and yes whilst we can still discuss them at length - I'm mostly interested in the various pacts that have we seen in play from AGOT.

But hey- the Robert/Cersei arrangement provides a useful example of how marrying for "love" doesn't guarantee success either. Robert believed he was in love with Lyanna, but would probably have made just as big a disaster of it as his Cersei arrangement. And Cersei was certainly more enamoured of Rhaegar, but knowing Cersei's attitude that was doomed to fail as well.

But those are the past... and at the time they did serve a relevant purpose-- The Lannisters took care of Aerys for Robert, and he would have been certainly obliged to take Cersei as his wife in the wake of Lyanna's death. And we know that Hoster Tully entered the war to help with the rebellion on condition of the marriage of his daughter to the Stark heir. So these marriages, though perhaps they didn't work out so well, at least worked in terms of their initial objectives.

But what of the ones that we're now seeing in the books first hand? Should Robb have honoured his arrangement with the Frey girl instead of marrying Jeyne? Would the Freys have still not stabbed in him in the back? And what have the Freys gained from their betrayal? Little and less.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Ned and Catelyn were married before the series started, and yes whilst we can still discuss them at length - I'm mostly interested in the various pacts that have we seen in play from AGOT.

But hey- the Robert/Cersei arrangement provides a useful example of how marrying for "love" doesn't guarantee success either. Robert believed he was in love with Lyanna, but would probably have made just as big a disaster of it as his Cersei arrangement. And Cersei was certainly more enamoured of Rhaegar, but knowing Cersei's attitude that was doomed to fail as well.

This has been discussed before, but I don't think Robert's marriage with Lyanna would be such a big disaster as his with Cersei's, simply because Lyanna is a better person. Robert and Cersei were completely inadequate for each other, and made each other a worse person. Even in the worst case scenario, a Robert/Lyanna marriage would end up like Doran and his wife- Lyanna away at home (Winterfell) and not talking to each other, but without beatings and murder attempts.

But those are the past... and at the time they did serve a relevant purpose-- The Lannisters took care of Aerys for Robert, and he would have been certainly obliged to take Cersei as his wife in the wake of Lyanna's death. And we know that Hoster Tully entered the war to help with the rebellion on condition of the marriage of his daughter to the Stark heir. So these marriages, though perhaps they didn't work out so well, at least worked in terms of their initial objectives.

Robert wasn't really forced to take Cersei as a wife. Politically wise, it was the best choice, but if he hadn't, there wasn't much they could do- the only viable candidate for the throne was Viserys, but they destroyed their chances with the Targaryens.

But what of the ones that we're now seeing in the books first hand? Should Robb have honoured his arrangement with the Frey girl instead of marrying Jeyne? Would the Freys have still not stabbed in him in the back? And what have the Freys gained from their betrayal? Little and less.

There would be no Red Wedding if Robb had married the Frey girl because they would have no reason for their petty vengeance. And a granson heir of Winterfell is a better deal than anything Tywin can offer them.

[King Harren]

Note that, despite being married to a Florent, Randyll Tarly begins killing Florents just after Renly dies.

[1234567]

Note that, despite being married to a Florent, Randyll Tarly begins killing Florents just after Renly dies.

But that is the same Tarly who also gave his oldest son the choice of the Wall or Death, because he wasn't manly enough for him.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I think Tarly wanted his wife to inherit Brightwater Keep, but then got screwed by the Tyrells, who made Tywin give it to Garlan. Now, I think he'll back stab them.

[1234567]

I think Tarly wanted his wife to inherit Brightwater Keep, but then got screwed by the Tyrells, who made Tywin give it to Garlan. Now, I think he'll back stab them.

Tarly is in a good position to bend knee to Aegon then. If he has his portion of the Tyrell forces change sides, it could become quite interesting. Also nothing has been heard from the Hightowers yet: perhaps they will declare for Aegon. The Golden Company will have marriage and family links throughout Westeros.

[Tini]

The Golden Company is a threat to many noble families of Westeros especially because of old marriage and family links. They want ownesrhip lands and possessions that have passed to different branches of their families. There will be conflicts if those branches bend the knee to Aegon because they will not agree to part with their lordships and family heirlooms.. (Of course there will be conflict, too, if they don't.)

[The Bloody Boar]

Apparently, in GRRM's world, marriage alliances are worth shit if they're with the Starks. Their marriage alliance with the Tullys brought them nothing but trouble: troops who were defeated, lands they had to defend at cost to themselves, and bannermen who would only help if they were allowed a marriage alliance the same as their liege lords had had. Their ties by marriage with House Arryn brought them no help whatsoever. But even though marriage alliances did them more harm than good, to actually break off a marriage alliance brought death and disaster. For the Starks, marriage alliances were something of a mixed curse.

There would be no Red Wedding if Robb had married the Frey girl because they would have no reason for their petty vengeance. And a granson heir of Winterfell is a better deal than anything Tywin can offer them.

There would also be no Red Wedding if Catelyn hadn't set Jaime free, and perhaps not also if Robb hadn't sent Theon home. What is it with Starks and just throwing away hostages? Snatching them up one minute, and throwing them away the next?

Basically, marriages are important to set the seal on alliances that are based on other things such as mutual advantage, as with the Tyrell/Lannister marriage. Without those other things, they don't mean much. Marriages can also confer legitimacy on a claim to land, as with Ramsay and fake Arya, but, again, without force to back up the claim, the marriage may not be worth much.

[The King in the South]

Numbers are grossly incorrect, and you don't consider the strategic advantage of Moat Cailin (which we know to have thrown back armies much larger than the North's).

Also, if you have read aDwD, then you'd be able to imagine what happens to a Southron host when marching through the North? Remember how the Northmen faired relatively?

How are they grossly incorrect? They would have all of the Lannister strength if need be+a large portion of the Riverlands.

Tywin said he wouldn't have moved Tyrion north until Bolton was dead, so any of the remaining northerners would have fought themselves to the death.

And they can just land ships behind Moat Caitlin.

And once again, the winters wouldn't be as damaging because they would just sit inside winterfell and the loyal forts. It's the northerners in this case who are trying to remove them.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Apparently, in GRRM's world, marriage alliances are worth shit if they're with the Starks. Their marriage alliance with the Tullys brought them nothing but trouble: troops who were defeated, lands they had to defend at cost to themselves, and bannermen who would only help if they were allowed a marriage alliance the same as their liege lords had had. Their ties by marriage with House Arryn brought them no help whatsoever. But even though marriage alliances did them more harm than good, to actually break off a marriage alliance brought death and disaster. For the Starks, marriage alliances were something of a mixed curse.

Well, those alliances allowed them to win the rebellion. And for all their problems, if Lysa had not betrayed them, it's quite likely they would win the war anyway. Tywin would have been crushed between Robb's forces and the ones from the Vale coming from the East.

There would also be no Red Wedding if Catelyn hadn't set Jaime free, and perhaps not also if Robb hadn't sent Theon home. What is it with Starks and just throwing away hostages? Snatching them up one minute, and throwing them away the next?

Yeah. although if Jaime had not been released, the RW would have still happened. Tywin gave up on him after Ned was killed.

Basically, marriages are important to set the seal on alliances that are based on other things such as mutual advantage, as with the Tyrell/Lannister marriage. Without those other things, they don't mean much. Marriages can also confer legitimacy on a claim to land, as with Ramsay and fake Arya, but, again, without force to back up the claim, the marriage may not be worth much.

The problem with Ramsay and "Arya" is that everyone knew this was a forced marriage, so even it was the real one, it wouldn't work, as we have seen in ADWD.

[brashcandy]

It was incredibly ridiculous that Lysa Tully was able to keep the Vale out of the war. Had Jon Arryn been alive... well had Jon Arryn been alive we would not be having this discussion :) But yeah, she screwed the Starks over big time. Lysa Tully wasn't mentally right for a long time it seemed, I'm just wondering why no one tried to have her removed from power after Jon Arryn's death? Or did someone? I can't remember...

[Winterfell is Burning]

It has been mentioned that the Vale had been close to open revolt, and most lords wanted to fight for Robb.

[Flockofwords]

Of course arranged marriages exist today. The point I am making is that since the series has opened we have perhaps seen two arranged marriages at most that have worked, and ironically these marriages have all been with Westerosi women and "foreigners":

- Alys Karstark to Magnar of Thenn

- Daenerys to Khal Drogo

Every other attempt at arranging a marriage - Sansa/Joffrey, Sansa/Willas, Sansa/Tyrion, Robb/Frey, Dany/Quentyn, Dany/Aegon, Arianne/Viserys, Margaery/Joffrey Asha/Pig :), Arya(Jeyne)/Ramsay, - has brought nothing but suffering, death and disaster down on the heads of those involved. Now, by no means is the solution to this: marry for love! Martin would never be so idealistic as to suggest such a false dichotomy anyways.

What I'm trying to tease out is if Martin is showing that these arranged marriages are no longer beneficial to the expressed purposes that they have traditionally been designed for. For example, Tywin married Sansa to Tyrion for the ostensible goal of gaining the North, but this would have been next to impossible for him to achieve based on what we've seen in the last book.

Quentyn came to Dany offering a pact to secure the help of Dorne in her conquest of Westeros, but besides the fact that the real place she needed it was not in Westeros but in Meereen, there's a valid argument to be made that she won't even need Dorne's assistance. Further, Aegon seems to be making significant inroads in Westeros without Dany's dragons, something that he had hitherto considered impossible.

The Joffrey/Sansa union - that was arranged because of the solid friendship between the Stark and Baratheon Houses - was ironically undone by the callous actions of Robert's wife, not to mention the absolute cruelty of his son, Joffrey.

So I really do think that there's been a trend from AGOT onwards that has shown that these arranged marriages are failing to live up to their own purposes for whatever reason.

I see your point. I don't really see these individual marriages as evidence of an overall trend, though, myself - but ymmv.

Sansa/Joffrey - well, Joff WAS a vicious and psychotic s.o.b, so that wouldn't have been a happy match if it had gone ahead, but it would have served to bind together the North and South effectively if Robb had managed to hold the North.

Sansa/Willas sounded like it had a fair bit going for it, but of course Cersei sabotaged it.

Sansa/Tyrion - you know, I do think this one could have worked, given time, and if Sansa could just get over herself. Potential happiness aside, it was a perfectly sound piece of strategy: it removed Sansa from the board, even if Tyrion's chances of claiming the North were small. As a (beautiful young) unmarried Stark heir, Sansa was a ripe plum for the Tyrells or anyone else to use to consolidate their own claim on the North; by marrying her to Tyrion, her power to move against the Lannisters was neutralised. (Or it would have been, if Littlefinger weren't so damn good at playing the game of thrones himself.)

Robb/Frey - bought them a shitload of Frey soldiers and would have worked to consolidate that allegiance, if only Jeyne whatserface hadn't been moved by the guy's devastation at hearing about his little brothers' "murders" at the hands of his bannerman, and decided that nothing says "I'm sorry for your loss" like jumping into somebody's pants. And if Robb hadn't been so much his father's son that he felt he had to put her honour ahead of his own. The daft bugger.

Dany/Quentyn - I'm pretty sure she'd have been well up for it if he'd brought her something USEFUL; she's prepared to be pragmatic about marriage, after all. Unfortunately he showed up with nothing but empty promises at a time when she actively needed to consolidate her powerbase with a useful marriage then and there, so she had to stick to what she'd got and settle for an allegiance with whatsisface. (Which, granted, was a poisoned chalice.)

Dany/Aegon - presently she has no idea he exists. Pity.

Arianne/Viserys - what? Did I miss this?

Margaery/Joffrey - worked very well for the Tyrells, and indeed Sansa. Worked pretty well for the Lannisters too, actually, in terms of politics. As happy matches go, not so much, but I think we're all probably quite pleased with how that worked out.

Asha/Pig :) - again, very effective decision on her uncle's part; he successfully consolidated the Pig's loyalty whilst pulling the rug out from under his neice.

Arya(Jeyne)/Ramsay, - crap for fake!Arya, but did a fair bit to consolidate Ramsay's claim position.

....I guess the thing is that I'm not seeing these kind of marriages as successful based upon personal happiness; they're about consolidating power over land & money and buying potential allies. And for all that we've seen some spectacular messes, and indeed the total violation of the entire concept (courtesy of the Freys), I don't see that the underlying PREMISE is unsound.

[edited to add: that's to say, the premise isn't unsound within the context of a patriarchal culture. In an ideal world, women would be enfranchised & not used as chattal and bartering tools by their menfolk. In this world & in Westeros, however, I don't see much hope of that paradigm ending any time soon.]

But ymmv.

[brashcandy]

....I guess the thing is that I'm not seeing these kind of marriages as successful based upon personal happiness; they're about consolidating power over land & money and buying potential allies. And for all that we've seen some spectacular messes, and indeed the total violation of the entire concept (courtesy of the Freys), I don't see that the underlying PREMISE is unsound.

[edited to add: that's to say, the premise isn't unsound within the context of a patriarchal culture. In an ideal world, women would be enfranchised & not used as chattal and bartering tools by their menfolk. In this world & in Westeros, however, I don't see much hope of that paradigm ending any time soon.]

But ymmv.

I do agree with the part that I bolded in your response, but the ironic thing is that whilst personal happiness may not count, it's actually the thing that has doomed a lot of the marriage pacts in the series.

Consider:

Joffrey and Margaery - a good union intended to strengthen the Tyrell/Lannister alliance - but it is the truth of Joffrey's cruelty and sadism (which would have led to Margaery's personal unhappiness) that causes the Tyrells to plot to kill him.

Sansa/Harry the Heir - This may indeed work as LF predicts, but I don't see Sansa as being too eager to get involved in another marriage to claim her birthright.

Sansa/Tyrion- slim chances of working even if the bride was happy - but it is Sansa's lack of happiness and interest in him that prevents him from consummating the marriage and now Sansa has credible grounds for an annulment.

Robert/Cersei - need we say more? Her deep unhappiness with him causes her to cheat on him with Jaime, conceive bastards, and ultimately kill him. Same thing with Lysa/Jon Arryn.

Asha certainly isn't going to sit back and let Euron destroy her chances of ruling because he married her off to some stranger. She's most likely going to use Theon to invalidate the Kingsmoot.

As for the Ramsay/fake Arya marriage, isn't it arguable that it was the knowledge of the Bolton's cruelty, particularly Ramsay's, and the deep suffering of Jeyne, that spurs so many people to help her? Now the Boltons are in deep shit in a hostile North.

As for Dany, she does look at marriage practically, but she benefitted from a happy union with Drogo. Compare this now to the disaster of her marriage with Hizdahr - when again she tried to put her personal happiness and principles aside, and in the end realises that it was all a sham and that she could not abide by the reality of such a union.

So whilst political marriages are about consolidating land, titles and more power, I don't think we can discount the very real importance of personal happiness. When people aren't happy things can go very very wrong.