How to kill a knight in full plate armour?

[viking warrior]

What type of mace is this called?

http://awoiaf.wester...13/MAEKAR_I.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_star_(weapon)

I would say its a morning star, which is a kind of mace.

[Coren82]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I know that the most important downside of a full metal armor is the heat produced inside the body.

A full metal armored knight could sustain two chivarly charges, then he had to rest a bit, because too fatigued by the heat.

We see that in Bronn vs Ser Wardis Egen duel, Bronn strategy is too avoid the combat and focus on defense until his opponent is too fatigued to carry on the fight.

Another proof is the light armor used by Dornishmen on its own country.

[viking warrior]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I know that the most important downside of a full metal armor is the heat produced inside the body.

A full metal armored knight could sustain two chivarly charges, then he had to rest a bit, because too fatigued by the heat.

We see that in Bronn vs Ser Wardis Egen duel, Bronn strategy is too avoid the combat and focus on defense until his opponent is too fatigued to carry on the fight.

Another proof is the light armor used by Dornishmen on its own country.

No need for endurance, most westerosi armies are rag tag groups, consisting of poorly trained an ill-disciplined levies and mercenaries, one charge should do the trick.

[King Aerys the Just]

No need for endurance, most westerosi armies are rag tag groups, consisting of poorly trained an ill-disciplined levies and mercenaries, one charge should do the trick.

Trololol

[WhatIsDeadMayNeverLive]

arrow to the knee... no wait, that will just turn him into a guard.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I know that the most important downside of a full metal armor is the heat produced inside the body.

A full metal armored knight could sustain two chivarly charges, then he had to rest a bit, because too fatigued by the heat.

We see that in Bronn vs Ser Wardis Egen duel, Bronn strategy is too avoid the combat and focus on defense until his opponent is too fatigued to carry on the fight.

Another proof is the light armor used by Dornishmen on its own country.

Sort of. An armored knight could fight going all-out on foot for ~1 minute before he had to catch his breath for a minute or five. But he could repeat that all day long.

No need for endurance, most westerosi armies are rag tag groups, consisting of poorly trained an ill-disciplined levies and mercenaries, one charge should do the trick.

And...

Courtesy of E-Ro:

The karstarks came in on a cold windy morning, bringing three hundred horsemen and near two thousand foot from their castle at karhold. The steel points of their pikes winked in the pale sunlight as the column approached.

Ser wylis and his brother ser wendel followed, leading their levies, near fifteen hundred men: some twenty odd knights and as many squires, two hundred mounted lances, swordsmen, and freeriders, and the rest foot armed with spears, pikes and tridents.

Behind her came ser jared frey, ser hosteen frey, ser danwell frey, and lord walders basterd son ronald rivers, leading a long column of pikemen, rank on rank of shuffling men in blue steel ringmail and silver grey cloaks...

The larger part of the northern host, pikes and archers and great masses of men at arms on foot, remained on the east bank under the command of roose bolton.

His uncle would lead the center. Ser kevan had raised his standerds above the kingsroad. Quivers hanging from their belts, the foot archers arrayed themselves into three long lines to east and west of the road, and stood calmly stringing their bows. Between them pikemen formed squares, behind were rank on rank of men at arms with spear and sword and axe. Three hundred heavy horse surrounded ser kevan and the lords bannermen lefford, lydden and serrett with all their sworn retainers. The right wing was all cavalry, some four thousand men, heavy with the weight of their armor. More then three quarters of the knights were there massed together like a great steel fist. Ser adam Marbrand had the command. Tyrion saw his banner unfurl as his standerd bearer shook it out, a burning tree, arange and smoke. Behind him flew ser flements purple unicorn the brindled boar of crakehall the bantam rooster of swyft, and more. His lord father took place on the hill where he had slept. Around him the resrve assembled, a huge force half mounted and half foot, five thousand strong. Lord tywin almost always chose to command the reserve...

Were the right was a mailed fist of knights and heavy lances the vanguard was made up of the sweepings of the west: mounted archers in leather jerkins, a swarming mass of undisciplined freeriders and sellswords, fieldhands on plow horses armed with scythes and their fathers rusted swords half trained boys from the stews of lannisport, and tyrion and his mountain clansmen.

Now tell me, what apart from the last bit,(witch is the smallest part of the army and used to try and trick robb) says armies are composed of untrained men? Please note that when refering to the last part he says "half trained" not untrained, as well tyrions shock at the low quality of the troops is an obvious indication that most troops are not like this at all. Also for further reading on the subject http://www.wars-of-t...f_the_roses.htm

Here, a cursory search will yeild this(taken from wikepedia)

Defence of the realm was especially important and most English people are believed to have placed great value on success in arms: hence, the king had to be seen as a competent warrior. A crucial point about the series of conflicts that came to be known as The Wars of the Roses was that the king did not maintain a standing army. Rather, he relied upon his nobles to furnish him with troops when necessary, so it was vital that he maintained good relations with aristocracy and gentry who, if provoked, might use their armed strength against him. It followed that the king was duty bound to prevent power struggles between the magnates, especially if these could impact the stability of the realm.

The Wars of the Roses were fought primarily by the great magnates of the landed aristocracy. These were the royal dukes, marquesses and earls who were relatively few in number; and a greater number of barons, knights and landed gentry. Besides the huge estates they controlled, many enhanced their wealth by investment in trade and expanded their influence through political marriage alliances. They were supported by armies of feudal retainers and tenants, sometimes with the aid of foreign mercenaries; this practice of controlling large numbers of paid men-at-arms was known as "maintenance". Besides the size of his private army, a nobleman's prestige was measured by his "affinity" (i.e., those bound by contract to serve him). The retainer who became a member of an affinity wore the nobleman's "livery" (a uniform and badge) and accompany him on military campaigns; in return, the nobleman would pay him a pension, provide protection and grant rewards such as land or a lucrative office.This unofficial system of "livery and maintenance" largely came about through the decline of feudalism in the wake of the Hundred Years War to be replaced by what some historians call "bastard feudalism" whereby the retainer did not serve the nobleman as a feudal vassal but as a liveried retainer under contract or indenture.

Most armies fought entirely on foot. In several cases, the magnates dismounted and fought among the common foot-soldiers, to inspire them and to dispel the notion that in the case of defeat they might be ransomed while the common soldiers, being of little value, faced death.

He had no time to think about it. The drums were so near that the beat crept under his skin and set his hands to twitching. Bronn drew his longsword, and suddenly the enemy was there before them, boiling over the tops of the hills, advancing with measured tread behind a wall of sheilds and pikes. Gods be damned, look at them all, tyrion thought, though he knew his father had more men on the field. Their captains led them on armored warhorses, standard bearers riding alongside with their banners. He glimpsed the bull moose of the hornwoods, the karstark sunburst, lord cerwyns battle axe, and the mailed fist of the glovers...and the twin towers of frey, blue on grey. So much for his fathers certainty lord walder would not bestir himself. The white of house stark was seen everywhere, the grey direwolves seeming to leap and run as the banners swirled and streamed from the high staffs. A warhorn blew. its voice long and low and chilling as a cold wind from the north. The lannister trumpets answered, brazen and defiant yet it seemed to tyrion they sounded smaller. As the horns died away, a hissing filled the air, a vast flight of arrows arched up from his right, where the archers stood flanking the road. The northerners broke into a run, shouting as they came, but the lannister arrows fell on them like a hail, hundreds of arrows, thousands, and shouts turned to screams as men stumbled and went down. By then a second flight was in the air, and the archers were fitting a third arrow to their bowstrings. Ser gregor waved his huge sword and bellowed a command, and a thousand other voices screamed back at him. Tyrion put his spurs to his horse and added one more voice to the cacophony, and the van surged forward."The river!" he shouted at his clansmen as they rode. "remeber, hew to the river." He was still leading when they broke a canter, untill chella gave a bloodcurdling shriek and galloped past him, shagga howled and followed. The clansmen charged after them, leaving tyrion in their dust. A crescent of enemy spearmen had formed ahead, a double hedgehog bristling with steel, waiting behind tall oaken sheilds marked with the sunburst of karstark. Gregor clegane was the first to reach them, leading a wedge of armored veterans. Half the horses shied at the last second, breaking their charge before the row of spears. The others died, sharp steel points ripping through their chests. Tyrion saw a dozen men go down. The mountains stallion reared, lashing out with iron shod hooves as a barbed spearhead raked across his neck. Madened, the beast lunged into the ranks. Spears thrust at him from every side, but the shield wall broke beneath his weight. The northernors stumbled away from the animals death throwes. As his horse fell, snorting blood and biting with his last red breath, the mountain rose untouched laying about him with his two handed greatsword. Shagga went bursting through the gap before the sheilds could close, other stone crows hard behind him. Tyrion shouted, "burned men! moon brothers! After me" but most of them were ahead of him. He glimpsed timmett son of timmet vault free as his mount died under him in full stride, saw amoon brother impaled on a karstark spear, watched connns horse shatter a mans ribs with a kick. A flight of arrows descended on them, were they came from he could not say, but they fell on stark and lannister alike, rattling off armor or finding flesh. Tyrion lifted his sheild and hid beneath it. The hedgehog was crumbling, the northernors reeling back under the impact of the mounted assault. Tyrion saw shagga catch a spearman full in the chest as the fool came on at a run, saw his axe shear through mail and leather and muscle and lungs. The man was dead on his feet, the axehead lodged in his chest, yet shagga rode on, cleaving a shield in two with his left hand battle axe while the corpse was bonellesly along on his right. By then the enemy was on him, and tyrions battle shrunk to the few feet of ground around his horse. A man at arms thrust at his chest and his axe lashed out knocking the spear aside. The man danced back for another try, but tyrion spured his horse and rode right over him...

His quarry met him sword in hand. He was tall and spare wearing a long chainmail hauberk and gauntlets of lobstered steel, but hed lost his helm and blood ran down into his eyes from a gash on his forehead. Tyrion aimed a swipe at his face but the man slammed it aside....

He saw ser kevan had bought up his center in support of the van, his huge mass of pikemen had pushed the northernors back against the hills. They were struggling on the slopes, pikes thrusting against another wall of sheilds, these oval and reinforced with iron studs. As he watched the air filled with arrows again, and the men behind the oak wall crumbled beneath the fire....

Tyrion watched his father fly past, the crimson and gold banner of lannister rippling over his head as he thundered across the field. Five hundred knights surrounded him, sunlight flashing off the points off their lances. The remnants of the stark lines shattered like glass beneath the hammer of their charge.

So we can see, it took tywin bringing in the reserve, and kevans pikes, and a hail of arrows to break the northmen. No hastily assembled peasent levy would last for a fraction of that time. Another interesting tidbit from all that that I had not considered, every north man tyrion fights is described as wearing mail. Mail is very expensive, just as expensive as plate and almost as good. At the end of the Middle Ages mail was more expensive then plate because plate could be mass produced. We can deduce from this that anyone wearing mail is a professional due to the expense of a mail hauberk.

Time and again we see references to training men to march them into combat. The lannisters at oxcross did not just raise men and march them off, they stayed back to train them. Rodrick cassel at the end of got is seen by bran to be training more men. The vast majority of westerosi forces will be well trained and equipped, as a force from the hundred years war and wars of the roses which grrm has based this on. The dothraki cant possibly face all that and hope to win unless they have a huge numerical advantage and they wont. Khal drogo has 40k men, all it would take is the north and riverlands teaming up to crush them. Or the north and west, or any combination of two kingdoms. In fact I would go so far as to say every kingdom on its own could destroy the dothraki, the only ones that would have a harder time of it would be the riverlords, but if the tullys manage to gather their levies before they can be destroyed piecmeal im sure they would be able to handle the dothraki. Combined arms forces composed of numerous elements(heavy cavalry, heavy infantry, archers, light cavalry, cavalry archers, etc) trumps an army of just light cavalry every single time.

/end essay

...you're plain wrong.

[Poody Doo]

Alot of water. Not even a lake or a pond, but like a decent sized pit.

[Northern Nomad]

Try to make him fall over and then sit on him.

[SeanF]

Bright Blue Eyes, even a peasant levy could be useful, if it contained experienced fighters, and was officered by knights and men at arms. Essentially, that was the English force at Neville's Cross.

[The Night's Prince]

I'd say it's extremely difficult since aiming at one spot will be almost impossible. What dummy wouldn't realize what you're doing and also if the Knight just stands there like an idiot while you take pot shots at him doesn't deserve to live anyway. You have to try and hit vulnerable spots that they absolutely know about while trying to survive from getting punched in the face with a plated fist. Good luck with that. It's not as easy as it sounds from melee range, albeit nearly impossible. Great topic OP!

[Lord Reaver]

That is why you have manuals describing techniques to do just those maneuvres (and of course, defend against them). Such a shame hardly anyone knows about them anymore, though.

[SeanF]

I'd say it's extremely difficult since aiming at one spot will be almost impossible. What dummy wouldn't realize what you're doing and also if the Knight just stands there like an idiot while you take pot shots at him doesn't deserve to live anyway. You have to try and hit vulnerable spots that they absolutely know about while trying to survive from getting punched in the face with a plated fist. Good luck with that. It's not as easy as it sounds from melee range, albeit nearly impossible. Great topic OP!

Massed volley fire from archers would kill relatively few men at arms. What it could do is completely disrupt and disorganise their attack, as horses were killed, men knocked off their feet etc.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Bright Blue Eyes, even a peasant levy could be useful, if it contained experienced fighters, and was officered by knights and men at arms. Essentially, that was the English force at Neville's Cross.

So what? Never seen one of those in books before the sparrows. As depicted in E-Ro's essay, the men-at-arms shown in virtually every battle carry equipment worth the livestock of an entire village and are very disciplined. Therefore professional fighters, anything but peasant levies.

[viking warrior]

Sort of. An armored knight could fight going all-out on foot for ~1 minute before he had to catch his breath for a minute or five. But he could repeat that all day long.

And...

Courtesy of E-Ro:

Now tell me, what apart from the last bit,(witch is the smallest part of the army and used to try and trick robb) says armies are composed of untrained men? Please note that when refering to the last part he says "half trained" not untrained, as well tyrions shock at the low quality of the troops is an obvious indication that most troops are not like this at all. Also for further reading on the subject http://www.wars-of-t...f_the_roses.htm

Here, a cursory search will yeild this(taken from wikepedia)

Defence of the realm was especially important and most English people are believed to have placed great value on success in arms: hence, the king had to be seen as a competent warrior. A crucial point about the series of conflicts that came to be known as The Wars of the Roses was that the king did not maintain a standing army. Rather, he relied upon his nobles to furnish him with troops when necessary, so it was vital that he maintained good relations with aristocracy and gentry who, if provoked, might use their armed strength against him. It followed that the king was duty bound to prevent power struggles between the magnates, especially if these could impact the stability of the realm.

The Wars of the Roses were fought primarily by the great magnates of the landed aristocracy. These were the royal dukes, marquesses and earls who were relatively few in number; and a greater number of barons, knights and landed gentry. Besides the huge estates they controlled, many enhanced their wealth by investment in trade and expanded their influence through political marriage alliances. They were supported by armies of feudal retainers and tenants, sometimes with the aid of foreign mercenaries; this practice of controlling large numbers of paid men-at-arms was known as "maintenance". Besides the size of his private army, a nobleman's prestige was measured by his "affinity" (i.e., those bound by contract to serve him). The retainer who became a member of an affinity wore the nobleman's "livery" (a uniform and badge) and accompany him on military campaigns; in return, the nobleman would pay him a pension, provide protection and grant rewards such as land or a lucrative office.This unofficial system of "livery and maintenance" largely came about through the decline of feudalism in the wake of the Hundred Years War to be replaced by what some historians call "bastard feudalism" whereby the retainer did not serve the nobleman as a feudal vassal but as a liveried retainer under contract or indenture.

Most armies fought entirely on foot. In several cases, the magnates dismounted and fought among the common foot-soldiers, to inspire them and to dispel the notion that in the case of defeat they might be ransomed while the common soldiers, being of little value, faced death.

So we can see, it took tywin bringing in the reserve, and kevans pikes, and a hail of arrows to break the northmen. No hastily assembled peasent levy would last for a fraction of that time. Another interesting tidbit from all that that I had not considered, every north man tyrion fights is described as wearing mail. Mail is very expensive, just as expensive as plate and almost as good. At the end of the Middle Ages mail was more expensive then plate because plate could be mass produced. We can deduce from this that anyone wearing mail is a professional due to the expense of a mail hauberk.

Time and again we see references to training men to march them into combat. The lannisters at oxcross did not just raise men and march them off, they stayed back to train them. Rodrick cassel at the end of got is seen by bran to be training more men. The vast majority of westerosi forces will be well trained and equipped, as a force from the hundred years war and wars of the roses which grrm has based this on. The dothraki cant possibly face all that and hope to win unless they have a huge numerical advantage and they wont. Khal drogo has 40k men, all it would take is the north and riverlands teaming up to crush them. Or the north and west, or any combination of two kingdoms. In fact I would go so far as to say every kingdom on its own could destroy the dothraki, the only ones that would have a harder time of it would be the riverlords, but if the tullys manage to gather their levies before they can be destroyed piecmeal im sure they would be able to handle the dothraki. Combined arms forces composed of numerous elements(heavy cavalry, heavy infantry, archers, light cavalry, cavalry archers, etc) trumps an army of just light cavalry every single time.

/end essay

...you're plain wrong.

It seems I'll have to excuse my half-assed comment, I'm perfectly aware of the fact the armies have some quality and good armor, but do b no means underestimate a heavy cavalry charge against an unprepared position. Thank you for the essay nonetheless. :cool4:

[The Black Hawk]

Personally it depends how you approach I would keep my distance with a sword. When see opening of chai mail stab through that as chainmail protects slashes and cuts. As for the helmet if it is wide enough stab through the eye slit. Try to move faster then your enemy wear him down as it gives you more openings to kill. I would also recommend knocking his sword out of his hand and put him on his knees. I would also do what Bronn did to Ser Vardis in the TV seris. Knocking off his helmet is also a good tactic

[Balerion-The-Black-Dread]

First of all, thank you for a very nice post. Saved myself a lot of trouble there.

That being said, I have to disagree that cuirassiers were what killed medieval knights. They don't really appear at all until the late 15th century, so you're talking very late medieval here. This is of course due to the fact blackpowder guns weren't reliable enough to be deployed in that fashion until then. What you're talking about is actually more the transition of heavy cavalry from the traditional knight in plate to that which we all know from the Napoleonic wars etc.

If we are talking about the High-to late Medieval period (the glory days of plate, if you like, before that most knights wore mainly chainmail), then what killed them was indeed either getting knocked to the ground and subsequently finished with some form of highly concentrated force (dagger, sword half-handed, warhammer) at some weak point (eyes, neck, groin, armpit). Some highly specialized weapons such as the warhammer (and we're talking a small, one handed thing made completely from steel here, not a mallet) or the flanged mace were constructed specifically to penetrate armor. The late medieval fencing manuals show numerous techniques designed for use on armored opponents.

The other alternative is some form of pike or lance with sufficient power behind it to outright penetrate the armor. But, as you point out, this could only happen given very specific conditions, and the efficiency of the pike against armored cavalry has been quite overrated by later historians and laypeople.

LOL, sorry I guess I didn't explain myself clearly enough in the post. What I meant was that it was the cuirassiers or reiters who ended the reign of lance-armed cavalry, or figuratively speaking "kill" the knights. Obviously before the invention of firearms no knights could be felled by a lead ball fired from a cuirassier's wheel-lock pistol :D.

Like has been said so many times in this forum, before the adoption of firearms the preferred method of defeating combatants clad in plate armor was to either 1) blunt trauma or 2) stabs in areas that weren't clad in armor. Aside of very high poundage crossbow at very close range, very few hand-held weapons were capable of reliably piercing plate armor before the invention of firearms.

However:

1) A solid lance strike against a knight's helmet would most likely knock him out cold; in fact the helmet's visor was the number one target for participants of jousting as a good strike practically ensured a knockout blow.

If the knight's head wasn't properly braced by a bevor riveted to his breastplate the impact would likely break his neck. Also slivers of wood from a broken lance (or perhaps even small lance point) could get through a visor and injure the wearer's eyes. A king of France was killed in this manner during a joust.

2) As already said so many times by others, strikes from a warhammer, mace or similar weapons could inflict significant blunt trauma to the wearer without compromising the armor. A solid blow to the head could likely floor the stoutest knight. Any body parts with prominent bone lying close to skin surface (head, kneecap, elbow, shoulder) would be the best target for maximum damage.

3) Daggers to the groin, armpit, visor was the most common way tin-can knights were killed, usually after they were knocked out cold by some blunt trauma weapons.

[Balerion-The-Black-Dread]

Despite the huge respect I have for the historical accuracy of ASOIAF, GGRM seemed to make a number of misconceptions about armor in his novels. Or he used magical effects to excuse these occurrences, which I supposed was alright considering he created the universe:

1) He seemed to be significantly underestimating the protective qualities of mail. During Littlefinger's duel with Brandon Stark the latter was described as ripping apart Littlefinger's mail hauberk from collar bone to navel with a single powerful blow.

Unless Littlefinger was wearing completely crappy butted mail or Brandon was wielding a Valyrian steel sword (was he?), or was magically super powerful, that would be a practically impossible feat. Cutting through good quality mail worn over padding was extremely difficult, rending a mail hauberk open from breastbone to navel.....well a bit too much artistic license for my taste.

Good quality riveted mail worn over a padded garment provided an excellent protection against most attacks, otherwise people all over the world from all sorts of cultures wouldn't be wearing this very expensive and laborious-to-make form of armor for millennias. Check out this article about mail at the myarmoury site, it's quite educational.

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_mail.php

2) At the same time he also seemed to overestimate the weight of plate armor. Again during the duel between Brandon Stark and Littlefinger, the collection of armor that Littlefinger wore (I believe it included hauberk, half helm, plus plate arm and leg defenses) would almost equal the weight of Brandon's high quality plate armor. And cost almost as much; by the time plate armor was available in such completeness enhancement in manufacturing process has brought down its price to the point that mail was actually more expensive to produce.

Also, during the duel between Oberyn and Gregor Clegane, Oberyn was described as wearing a scale breastplate over a mail hauberk plus arms and leg defenses. That would weigh almost the same as a suit of good quality plate armor, and wouldn't have given the Red Viper some sort of inherent mobility advantage over the Mountain.

[TargaryenFanatic]

A dagger in the back of the spine. If men in plate couldn't die in battle, then Bronn would have died a the Eyrie and Tyrion would have flown.

[Lord Reaver]

Anyone can die when the Author decides to drop a statue on you, mate.

Another excellent post. Very true, chainmail fitted (over/under or both) textile armor is virtually impenetrable to edged weapons such as a sword. This is a fact repeatedly ignored by GRRM (the aforementioned duel with Littlefinger vs Brandon, the fight with Jorah vs. the Bloodrider etc.). In fact, the main advantages of plate over chainmail wasn't just protection afforded (though it is significantly improved against pointed weapons such as bodkin arrows), but the price (it's actually cheaper to make plate, once you have the technology) and the weight.

[Leif]

Pop out a shadow-baby. They have experience in this department.