Poisons that Cause Insanity

[Shaggydog Stark]

As I was rereading AFFC, I came across the Arya chapter where the waif is teaching her about poisons.

"Sweetsleep is the gentlest of poisons," the waif told her, as she was grinding some with mortar and pestle. "A few grains will slow a pounding heart and stop a hand from shaking, and make a man feel calm and strong. A pinch will grant a night of deep and dreamless sleep. Three pinches will produce that sleep that does not end. The taste is very sweet, so it is best used in cakes and pies and honeyed wines. Here, you can smell the sweetness." She let her have a whiff, then sent her up the ladders to find a red glass bottle. "This is a crueler poison, but tasteless and odorless, hence easier to hide. The tears of Lys, men call it. Dissolved in wine or water, it eats at a man's bowels and belly, and kills as a sickness of those parts. Smell." Arya sniffed, and smelled nothing. The waif put the tears to one side and opened a fat stone jar. "This paste is spiced with basilisk blood. It will give cooked flesh a savory smell, but if eaten it produces violent madness, in beasts as well as men. A mouse will attack a lion after a taste of basilisk blood."

This information bothered me. The two poisons that were mentioned prior to the basilisk paste have both been used in Westeros. For example, sweetsleep is being used on little Robert Arryn and the tears of Lys has been used on Jon Arryn. So we are familiar with both those poisons. Therefore, it is possible that the third poison or a variation of it has also been used that causes insanity, except we, the readers, are unaware of it.

Does anyone else suspect that some of the people who seem insane in ASOIAF, might actually have been poisoned into insanity? Perhaps even some of the Targs for all we know? The fact that there are poisons that cause insanity bothers me in a book basically filled with many insane people. Lets not forget that the entire series is about how to play the game of thrones, so I am beginning to get a nagging suspicion that some of these people were not meant to be insane but were poisoned.

What do you guys think?

[Eyron]

I had never thought about this before you brought it up, but it would make so much sense.

The ones I am suspecting most to have been poisoned are Viserys and Aerys.

About Viserys: Illyrio and Varys could not kill him for some reason, maybe because Illyrio or Varys is related to Viserys and didn't want to be a kinslayer? Given that Illyrio always seemed to add his voice to Viserys overreaching dreams and plans, spoiled him with encouragement and slippery compliments, it's not far fetched to think he poisoned him to make him crazy.

Aerys maybe had Varys to whisper in his ear and make him suspicious of Rhaegar, and he was mad. I think it's very likely that he was poisoned. Where the Targs really SO crazy before Aerys?

Another one that could have been poisoned is Catelyn, at the RW. But there is not any good ground for this, she could have gone mad from trauma too, it's just that she went from rather stabil to completely insane over the time the wedding dinner lasted, and I'm not sure they intended to kill her from the start.

[Stannis the Great]

I had never thought about this before you brought it up, but it would make so much sense.

The ones I am suspecting most to have been poisoned are Viserys and Aerys.

About Viserys: Illyrio and Varys could not kill him for some reason, maybe because Illyrio or Varys is related to Viserys and didn't want to be a kinslayer? Given that Illyrio always seemed to add his voice to Viserys overreaching dreams and plans, spoiled him with encouragement and slippery compliments, it's not far fetched to think he poisoned him to make him crazy.

Aerys maybe had Varys to whisper in his ear and make him suspicious of Rhaegar, and he was mad. I think it's very likely that he was poisoned. Where the Targs really SO crazy before Aerys?

Another one that could have been poisoned is Catelyn, at the RW. But there is not any good ground for this, she could have gone mad from trauma too, it's just that she went from rather stabil to completely insane over the time the wedding dinner lasted, and I'm not sure they intended to kill her from the start.

If Viserys were poisoned to become mad then it would ruin the story for me. I like to believe that he was driven into madness by a traumatic childhood, moving around in constant fear of being killed and being laughed and mocked by all but his sister. It's tragic and enough to make a lot of people crazy. Removing that aspect of his backstory with - oh he was poisoned into madness - just doesn't seem right.

Quite a lot of the Targs were mad. Wasn't it one of them who said something along the lines of "Every time a new Targ is born, a coin is flipped with one side greatness and the other madness"? Baelor the Blessed comes to mind as being a man who is batshit crazy.

[Shaggydog Stark]

I had never thought about this before you brought it up, but it would make so much sense.

The ones I am suspecting most to have been poisoned are Viserys and Aerys.

About Viserys: Illyrio and Varys could not kill him for some reason, maybe because Illyrio or Varys is related to Viserys and didn't want to be a kinslayer? Given that Illyrio always seemed to add his voice to Viserys overreaching dreams and plans, spoiled him with encouragement and slippery compliments, it's not far fetched to think he poisoned him to make him crazy.

Aerys maybe had Varys to whisper in his ear and make him suspicious of Rhaegar, and he was mad. I think it's very likely that he was poisoned. Where the Targs really SO crazy before Aerys?

Another one that could have been poisoned is Catelyn, at the RW. But there is not any good ground for this, she could have gone mad from trauma too, it's just that she went from rather stabil to completely insane over the time the wedding dinner lasted, and I'm not sure they intended to kill her from the start.

Well Viserys crossed my mind too since he actually threatens Dany's baby in Vaes Dothrak amongst all the Dothrakis. That was pretty insane and fits in with:

A mouse will attack a lion after a taste of basilisk blood

Cersei is another one I thought of. After Robert was killed by the boar she becomes very fond of boar and IIRC I think I read somewhere the flesh was savory or something. I could be remembering this wrong but that's how I recall it.

Since we love crackpot theories ;), I wonder if the insanity happens instantaneously or if it is gradual and depending on dosage? Is it temporary or permanent? There is also Lysa Arryn and Joffrey.

All these people have been traumatized somehow but is it just trauma that has made them go over the edge, or did they also have some help? I mean there are so many other traumatized people who are not crazy in the same books. Does the poison work better on people more susceptible? And most importantly of all, is this the only poison that causes insanity? Are there other variations? So many questions ;)

[Eyron]

If Viserys were poisoned to become mad then it would ruin the story for me. I like to believe that he was driven into madness by a traumatic childhood, moving around in constant fear of being killed and being laughed and mocked by all but his sister. It's tragic and enough to make a lot of people crazy. Removing that aspect of his backstory with - oh he was poisoned into madness - just doesn't seem right.

It's possible he was mad from his traumatic childhood but that he also had "help" at certain times from Illyrio to push him further over the edge. I think his story is very tragic so I did not mean he was went mad only from poison, he was obviously a very scarred person.

Quite a lot of the Targs were mad. Wasn't it one of them who said something along the lines of "Every time a new Targ is born, a coin is flipped with one side greatness and the other madness"? Baelor the Blessed comes to mind as being a man who is batshit crazy.

But even Baelor where not so dangerously insane that he wanted to blow up all of Kings Landing and all it's people with wildfyre I think. There is a difference in scale between the previous crazy Targs and Aerys, he was after all given the epithet the Mad King. The fact that madness was known to run in the Targaryen family is a very good cover up for someone who wants to ruin them.

Shaggydog, who else did you think could have been poisoned?

[Babeldygob]

The paste got me thinking, couldn't that be what Jaqen H'garr(not sure on spelling) used the paste to feed the dog that killed his master at Harrenhal? He was supposed to be very loyal and Arya thought it must've been magic, the way that Jaqen managed to set the dog on his master, can't remember the master's name though.

[Shaggydog Stark]

But even Baelor where not so dangerously insane that he wanted to blow up all of Kings Landing and all it's people with wildfyre I think. There is a difference in scale between the previous crazy Targs and Aerys, he was after all given the epithet the Mad King. The fact that madness was known to run in the Targaryen family is a very good cover up for someone who wants to ruin them.

Shaggydog, who else did you think could have been poisoned?

Exactly, insanity was known to run in the Targ family which would provide the best cover. But we don't have any past Targ who was trying to burn down KL despite his madness. The past Targs who were insane seem to have injured themselves more than others. Such as Brightflame and Baelor the Blessed.

I also thought that the Citadel may have been behind the poisoning of the dragons. So maybe there is another party who might be behind the poisoning of Targs.

The paste got me thinking, couldn't that be what Jaqen H'garr(not sure on spelling) used the paste to feed the dog that killed his master at Harrenhal? He was supposed to be very loyal and Arya thought it must've been magic, the way that Jaqen managed to set the dog on his master, can't remember the master's name though.

That is a really good observation and even Arya asks the waif, "Would it work on dogs?" So yeah I think Jaqen did use it on Weese's dog.

[Ice Turtle]

I wondered this myself. But it seems that most of the Targs are really mad, and Lysa probably too.

Little off topic but did anyone else noticed how familiar is LF with poisons? Sweetsleep, Strangler, Tears of Lys.... I dread to know what is wolfsbane named after.

[Shaggydog Stark]

I wondered this myself. But it seems that most of the Targs are really mad, and Lysa probably too.

Little off topic but did anyone else noticed how familiar is LF with poisons? Sweetsleep, Strangler, Tears of Lys.... I dread to know what is wolfsbane named after.

Yeah LF seems very well acquainted with poison and notice that he is behind the poisoning of both Jon Arryn and Robert Arryn, so I wouldn't be surprised if he has also been poisoning Lysa. This is all conjecture but there are too many insane people for one story. You can write off a few as being traumatized but all of them? And now we know there is at least one poison that causes insanity so maybe there are more?

The way Cersei looked when she was burning the tower of the Hand reminded Jaime of Aerys. I don't know, but it is too much coincidence. Besides Cersei was not so psychotic until AFFC...it just makes me very suspicious of foul play.

[Ice Turtle]

Yeah LF seems very well acquainted with poison and notice that he is behind the poisoning of both Jon Arryn and Robert Arryn, so I wouldn't be surprised if he has also been poisoning Lysa. This is all conjecture but there are too many insane people for one story. You can write off a few as being traumatized but all of them? And now we know there is at least one poison that causes insanity so maybe there are more?

The way Cersei looked when she was burning the tower of the Hand reminded Jaime of Aerys. I don't know, but it is too much coincidence. Besides Cersei was not so psychotic until AFFC...it just makes me very suspicious of foul play.

Yeah, but LF wanted Cersei to last a little longer, or so he tells Sansa, if anyone poisoned her it would be Varys and there is also fact that her son was insane too. Joffrey's behavior was troubling from his earliest childhood and Cersei was unusually cruel towards Tyrion when they were children.

[Eyron]

Well Viserys crossed my mind too since he actually threatens Dany's baby in Vaes Dothrak amongst all the Dothrakis.

Yes of course, you gave me the idea that he was one being poisoned! But I had not thought of this event, that was a spectacular stupidity, and makes me too wonder about how that poison works, since it was some time after he left Illyrio.

Cersei is another one I thought of. After Robert was killed by the boar she becomes very fond of boar and IIRC I think I read somewhere the flesh was savory or something. I could be remembering this wrong but that's how I recall it.

Do you think is was Varys for her too?

Since we love crackpot theories ;), I wonder if the insanity happens instantaneously or if it is gradual and depending on dosage? Is it temporary or permanent? There is also Lysa Arryn and Joffrey.

Lysa seems permanently mad to me but she was not known as very crazy before she left KL I think, and there was good enough reasons for her actions without poison being involved (she murdered her husband out of love for LF) so I contribute her acts at that point to her situation. She was also quite rational in decision making, apart from the moondoor-sansa debacle. Now that could have been one moment she was under influence of poison, LF wouldn't have had to poison her to make this accident I think, but he would do it to make his action tolerable for Sansa. Had Lysa not been so hostile and insane at that moment he could not have justified his action.

Joffrey did strike me as generally insane, all the time, but was he ever megacrazy? I think he was more cruel than mad.

All these people have been traumatized somehow but is it just trauma that has made them go over the edge, or did they also have some help? I mean there are so many other traumatized people who are not crazy in the same books. Does the poison work better on people more susceptible? And most importantly of all, is this the only poison that causes insanity? Are there other variations? So many questions ;)

I guess it's possible to dilute it for different effects, maybe it changes someone permanently if they are given small doses for a longer period of time. Like some medicines we use today.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Yeah, but LF wanted Cersei to last a little longer, or so he tells Sansa, if anyone poisoned her it would be Varys and there is also fact that her son was insane too. Joffrey's behavior was troubling from his earliest childhood and Cersei was unusually cruel towards Tyrion when they were children.

I agree, I am not saying that they were perfect. What I am saying is perhaps they got a little extra help. And in Cersei's case I would say Varys as well. They had tendencies but in Cersei's case it seems to blossom into full insanity in AFFC. Even Aerys was considered charming in his youth according to Selmy. It is only later that he becomes a raving lunatic who wants to burn everything.

I think it is something to consider. The other poisons have been used before and I am becoming suspicious of everyone.

[DornishHighlander]

Again I hadn't even thought of this at all. Good catch, I think Arya's question of does it work on dogs makes me think she worked out how Jaqen did Weese in. I've always thought Cersei's descent into madness was pretty quick, yes she saw her favourite child choke to death in front of her but even before that she was drinking and eating more and *CRACKPOT THEORY ALERT* I think Taena Merryweather has another agenda whether she's Vary's, LF's or Olenna's pet remains to be seen.

[Ice&Fire reader]

Lysa seems permanently mad to me but she was not known as very crazy before she left KL I think, and there was good enough reasons for her actions without poison being involved (she murdered her husband out of love for LF) so I contribute her acts at that point to her situation.

Her I get a bit lost.

Was there ever a point of the story where it was explained that Lysa in fact poisoned John Arryn?

[Shaggydog Stark]

Yes of course, you gave me the idea that he was one being poisoned! But I had not thought of this event, that was a spectacular stupidity, and makes me too wonder about how that poison works, since it was some time after he left Illyrio.

Do you think is was Varys for her too?

I think Varys might have something to do with Cersei. After all he kills Kevan at the end of ADWD because he starts to make sane political decisions and he doesn't want him undoing Cersei's "good works".

Lysa seems permanently mad to me but she was not known as very crazy before she left KL I think, and there was good enough reasons for her actions without poison being involved (she murdered her husband out of love for LF) so I contribute her acts at that point to her situation. She was also quite rational in decision making, apart from the moondoor-sansa debacle. Now that could have been one moment she was under influence of poison, LF wouldn't have had to poison her to make this accident I think, but he would do it to make his action tolerable for Sansa. Had Lysa not been so hostile and insane at that moment he could not have justified his action.

Joffrey did strike me as generally insane, all the time, but was he ever megacrazy? I think he was more cruel than mad.

Lysa has been traumatized, there is no doubt about it, but I do not recall insanity in the Tullys and Lannisters as being hereditary. Lysa still breastfed her son at 6 years of age and was paranoid. LF knows too much about poisons to not suspect him. Besides we know how easy it is for someone to poison another. If you recall Tyrion poisoned Cersei so that she would get diarrhea in ACOK. Joffrey and Jon Arryn died of poison and so did maester Cressen. So we do have instances where poison has been used.

I guess it's possible to dilute it for different effects, maybe it changes someone permanently if they are given small doses for a longer period of time. Like some medicines we use today.

That is what I am thinking too. Perhaps the effects are not permanent. Perhaps they cause hallucinations, paranoia, etc.

But we can't discount it when there is at least one known poison.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Again I hadn't even thought of this at all. Good catch, I think Arya's question of does it work on dogs makes me think she worked out how Jaqen did Weese in. I've always thought Cersei's descent into madness was pretty quick, yes she saw her favourite child choke to death in front of her but even before that she was drinking and eating more and *CRACKPOT THEORY ALERT* I think Taena Merryweather has another agenda whether she's Vary's, LF's or Olenna's pet remains to be seen.

Exactly! The rapidity of Cersei's insanity is suspicious. Perhaps it is Merryweather, but it could be Varys as well. One of these two. LF obviously was disappointed that she was self-destructing so rapidly, so I don't think it was LF.

Lysa seems permanently mad to me but she was not known as very crazy before she left KL I think, and there was good enough reasons for her actions without poison being involved (she murdered her husband out of love for LF) so I contribute her acts at that point to her situation.

Her I get a bit lost.

Was there ever a point of the story where it was explained that Lysa in fact poisoned John Arryn?

IIRC, Brynden tells Cat that Lysa has changed ever since she returned from KL.

And yeah, when Lysa was trying to push Sansa out of the moondoor she tells LF that she did everything he asked and poisoned Jon with the tears of Lys.

[Eyron]

Lysa seems permanently mad to me but she was not known as very crazy before she left KL I think, and there was good enough reasons for her actions without poison being involved (she murdered her husband out of love for LF) so I contribute her acts at that point to her situation.

Her I get a bit lost.

Was there ever a point of the story where it was explained that Lysa in fact poisoned John Arryn?

Ehem, I could misremember this of course, and I hope you have read ADWD already if in case I spoil this for you.

I recall that she told Sansa that she and Littlefinger murdered him when she came to his home. But what I meant about this was that her actions then (killing Jon Arryn) could be explained without her being poisoned by anyone. To poison someone else you don't need to be in a rage, you are calculating and cold.

I think Varys might have something to do with Cersei. After all he kills Kevan at the end of ADWD because he starts to make sane political decisions and he doesn't want him undoing Cersei's "good works".

Yes, this could be, the poison does not kill her so she would go on with her psycho action as long as Varys wanted her to.

I didn't think about Varys hanging around KL still, but he obviously did! So him or his little children could keep her well supplied with poison all the time he was supposedly absent.

Lysa has been traumatized, there is no doubt about it, but I do not recall insanity in the Tullys and Lannisters as being hereditary. Lysa still breastfed her son at 6 years of age and was paranoid. LF knows too much about poisons to not suspect him. Besides we know how easy it is for someone to poison another. If you recall Tyrion poisoned Cersei so that she would get diarrhea in ACOK. Joffrey and Jon Arryn died of poison and so did maester Cressen. So we do have instances where poison has been used.

I do suspect him, but not for poisoning her all the time, the one time I suspect this strongly is the moondoor incident as I mentioned. Before that I don't think he had to really, she was so traumatized and he could probably manipulate her without it, but I don't know :)

It seems she was a bit nuts even when she was younger, but that's just my own thinking from hearing her about when she fell in love with LF and her constant jealousy of Catelyn.

[Brandon the Epithetless]

Exactly! The rapidity of Cersei's insanity is suspicious. Perhaps it is Merryweather, but it could be Varys as well. One of these two. LF obviously was disappointed that she was self-destructing so rapidly, so I don't think it was LF.

IIRC, Brynden tells Cat that Lysa has changed ever since she returned from KL.

And yeah, when Lysa was trying to push Sansa out of the moondoor she tells LF that she did everything he asked and poisoned Jon with the tears of Lys.

Regarding Targs, we have been given a long and detailed history of madness, instability and cruelty recurring in the Targ line, do we really need basilisk blood to explain Aerys II? After all he had predecessors in Maegor the Cruel, Aerion Brightflame, Mad Rhaegel and Baelor the Blessed. You can argue none of them went so far as to attempt to burn a city, but none of them had experienced being locked up in a dungeon (Defiance of Duskendale) or being besieged in his own city and faced the prospect of being massacred in his own keep, surely it is understandable why his madness is at a level above his predecessors.

Regarding Cersei, we don't really have a point of reference to judge if there really was a 'rapid decline' as she was only a POV in AFfC. And regarding Joffrey we have been shown that he was always cruel as a child so I don't see a need to find a more exotic explanation, some people are just sociopaths.

Regarding Lysa, the author has given us a reasonable explanation for her madness, again no need to throw basilisk blood into the mix. Her jealousy from Petyr's affections for Catelyn, has instilled a deep sense of inadequacy in her. And then the man she is obsessed with is separated from her, and shortly after their child is aborted on her father's orders. Then forcibly married off to an older man, and suffering a series of miscarriages before carrying a child, she is now so desperate for, to term. And then the child turns out sickly. We can also safely assume that Littlefinger nurtured her insecurities and fed her fears for her son, in order to make her more malleable to his plans.

Though I like the Weese's dog theory, as the dog was very loyal we needed an explanation for why she attacked her master, and basilisk blood fits nicely.

[Shaggydog Stark]

I do suspect him, but not for poisoning her all the time, the one time I suspect this strongly is the moondoor incident as I mentioned. Before that I don't think he had to really, she was so traumatized and he could probably manipulate her without it, but I don't know :)

It seems she was a bit nuts even when she was younger, but that's just my own thinking from hearing her about when she fell in love with LF and her constant jealousy of Catelyn.

Yes, she was a bit nuts as a kid and so was Cersei. I am a bit worried about Robert Arryn as well. In AFFC there seems to be the onset of insanity and how convenient that LF is so close by:

Robert pushed his spoon across the bowl and back, but never brought it to his lips. "I am not hungry," he decided. "I want to go back to bed. I never slept last night. I heard singing. Maester Coleman gave me dreamwine but I could still hear it."

Alayne put down her spoon. "If there had been singing, I should have heard it too. You had a bad dream, that's all."

"No, it wasn't a dream." Tears filled his eyes. "Marillion was singing again. Your father says he's dead, but he isn't."

"He is." It frightened her to hear him talk like this. Bad enough that he is small and sickly, what if he is mad as well? "Sweetrobin, he is,. Marillion loved your lady mother too much and could not live with what he'd done to her, so he walked into the sky." Alayne had not seen the body, no more than Robert had, but she did not doubt the fact of the singer's death. "He's gone truly."

"But I hear him every night. Even when I close the shutters and put a pillow on my head. Your father should have cut his tongue out. I told him to, but he wouldn't."

See, there is too much circumstantial evidence not to become suspicious. Neither the Tully nor the Arryns are noted for their insanity, so why Lysa and Robert?

I think we should make a list of all the clinically insane people and try to analyze each one of them and see if perhaps poison would be a viable explanation. None of the old Targs but people who have been part of the books since AGOT.

Okay, I will start first ;):

Aerys

Viserys

Cersei

Joffrey

Lysa

Robert Arryn (seems to be going there)

Who else? My brain is not working and I am sure I missed a ton of people.

[Queen Cersei I]


I had never thought about this before you brought it up, but it would make so much sense.
The ones I am suspecting most to have been poisoned are Viserys and Aerys.

About Viserys: Illyrio and Varys could not kill him for some reason, maybe because Illyrio or Varys is related to Viserys and didn't want to be a kinslayer? Given that Illyrio always seemed to add his voice to Viserys overreaching dreams and plans, spoiled him with encouragement and slippery compliments, it's not far fetched to think he poisoned him to make him crazy.

Aerys maybe had Varys to whisper in his ear and make him suspicious of Rhaegar, and he was mad. I think it's very likely that he was poisoned. Where the Targs really SO crazy before Aerys?


Re: were the Targs so crazy before Aerys-- I'd say the answer to that would be a resounding "yes." In addition to the (non-cannon) sources we have detailing the insanity of some of the past members of the royal Targ family, we have evidence in The Hedge Knight that that Aerion Brightfire guy was clearly nuts. (And just to make this 150 percent clear, he ended up drinking wildfire.) Also, during his conversation with Dany (and at several other instances throughout the book), Barristan notes that insanity was widely known to be something that ran in the Targs family-- and that even the sane Targs themselves were aware of this (a flip of the coin at the birth of every Targ, etc.)

There are a number of factors that make me suspect that the insanity of Viserys and his father was genetic, rather than the result of a poisoning. First and foremost, their particular brand of madness was not characterized simply by wildness and a feeling of invincibility (a lion would attack a mouse, etc.) It was also characterized by extreme paranoia (in Aery's case, which led to timidity rather than feelings of invincibility.) But with the exception of the paranoia and delusions of persecution, the mental illnesses of Aerys and his son were very similar. Both seem to have been able to, initially, live with mostly "normal" behavior, punctuated with, as Barristan notes, occasional "lapses." However, in both cases, true, visible madness was brought on by extreme stress, trauma, and feelings of personal failure. For Aerys, this came on later in life, after his getting kidnapped. For Viserys, this started much earlier—the kid lost his family, his home, and his kingdom and was thrown into exile at the age of 7 or 8; it could be argued that his entire life from this time onwards was a stressful, traumatic event.

Anyway, after the onset, both Viserys and Aerys showed a sort of madness characterized by instability, bursts of rage, and violence to those around them (especially those weaker than them, vulnerable and within their power.) Interestingly, Cersei’s mental instability, which seems to have appeared in AFFC (she was mildly paranoid in earlier books, however, considering the behavior of Tyrion and his threats, her paranoia—or simply distrust—seems understandable, imo) is strikingly similar to that of Viserys and, even more, that of Aerys. It was brought on by traumatic, horrible events (the death of Joffrey, and her failure to save him.) It is characterized by paranoia, an increase in violence, and a sudden, inexplicable, almost sexual love for fire. Make of that what you will, but after ADWD, I do indeed suspect (for the first time, earlier I would have called it crackpot) that Cersei inherited her mental illness from her father. And I am not talking about Lord Tywin, here.

Re: Illario poisoning Viserys: I think it’s pretty clear that Illario and Varys had a hand in Viserys death, but not in any direct way. They didn’t murder him. I think they simply sent him off with the Dorthraki, knowing well that his weakness, instability, lack of military training and tendency towards irrational violence would very likely lead to his death. They gave him enough rope, and allowed him to hang himself with it. They never wanted to make him king; in fact, they almost surely wanted him out of the way, to improve things for their “Aegon” (pretender.) However, I would be shocked if they poisoned him.

As for Aerys, I do think Varys whispered in his ear, increasing his paranoia. However, Aerys was clearly a few cards short of a stack to begin with. Varys didn’t cause that (by poisoning or any other way) he simply aggravated it further.