Poisons that Cause Insanity

[Shaggydog Stark]

The citadel would certainly have been playing the long game, if we are talking about the theory that they had been poisoning the Targs for a long while.

It is possible that they didn't poison any other Targs than Aerys though. Maybe they knew it was time for something to happen, that they had to rid Westeros from the dragons altogether. They study astronomy (the bronze link in their chain) and they could have gotten other signs of some sort. They know of the prophecies better than most and still they wanted the dragons gone. In this case it is likely that they also wanted the Baratheons gone, Pycelle could have helped in destroying both Aerys, Rhaegar and Robert. I am fairly sure Pycelle knew who fathered Cerceis children.

So I'd say in this case the Citadel and the Lannisters shared a common goal.

This is also possible and I have been toying with the idea. I knew you would make some sense out of my deranged thought ;). This is really good and I am glad we are using the bronze analogies, it feels our last theories were not so crappy :lol:

What do you think of what I posted for Rapsie above? Is there anything to it, or should we stick to the Citadel?

from wiki of ice and fire

Moon tea is a type of herbal tea that is used in the Seven Kingdoms as well as beyond the Wall to prevent or abort pregnancies. It is made generally by maesters and wise women out of tansy, mint, wormwood, a spoon of honey, and a drop of pennyroyal.

re wormwood: http://www.genhealth...ts/wormwood.htm

re tansy: http://www.thehomehe...rden-favourite/

re pennyroyal: http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Pennyroyal

all are listed as emmenagogue (menstrual flow stimulant) . how this translates to Westeros is anyone's guess

This is really good information and very interesting. Thanks :)

[Queen Beyond the Wall]

Wormwood has long been known for having psychological 'effects' (why Absinthe was banned--people believed that the wormwood in it induced hallucinations).

[Eyron]

from wiki of ice and fire

Moon tea is a type of herbal tea that is used in the Seven Kingdoms as well as beyond the Wall to prevent or abort pregnancies. It is made generally by maesters and wise women out of tansy, mint, wormwood, a spoon of honey, and a drop of pennyroyal.

Thank you for the input Gillio

I know what moon tea does and what it consist of, but that was not what I was wondering about.

To have any effect on menstruation it must effect the hormonal balance. Like any hormon drug (like contraceptive) it should have effect on mood and temper. But we don't know what those effects are, it has not been revealed in the books.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Wormwood has long been known for having psychological 'effects' (why Absinthe was banned--people believed that the wormwood in it induced hallucinations).

Yeah I was reading what Gillio posted on wormwood and I saw this:

Thujone’s toxicity can cause various effects as the amount of wormwood consumed increases, including seizures, delerium and hallucinations in extreme cases. Some researchers believe that thujone’s mind altering effects are similar to THC in marijuana (4).

Very interesting and good catch.

[Eyron]

I suspect Pycelle or Varys of poisoning Aerys, and I think it started after his abduction in Duskendale. He had suffered a traumatic experience and Aerys was known to be somewhat high strung before that, so whoever is responsible would have the perfect cover to poison him.

Tywin was loyal up till Duskendale, he and Selmy literally save Aerys's life. Tywin must have felt he was owed by Aerys and perhaps it was after Duskendale that Tywin proposes the marriage alliance between Rhaegar and Cersei. Here is the curious thing, not only does Aerys refuse the offer, he goes out of his way to insult Tywin. I thought that was very ungrateful and strange. Aerys is paranoid and thinks everyone is conspiring against him, however here is one of the two people he can trust because they have proven themselves but not only does he refuse but he insults Tywin. The other person who has saved him, Selmy is treated quite differently. When Selmy asks Aerys not to kill Ser Dontos, he accepts and spares Ser Dontos. I know that marriage and being merciful are not the same thing but why the insult?

It is possible he was envious of Tywin because he was a better ruler than him, but why would he go out of his way to insult him, cut out the tongue of Illyn Payne and take Jaime into the KG? I don’t understand this, Aerys is King, he doesn’t need to play these games. If Tywin is irritating him he can simply fire him and hire someone else as Hand.

This is very good thinking! Before we just contributed this strange behaviour to Aerys' madness, but for some reason he made a statement about the Lannisters here. This was very irrational since Tywin had proven himself loyal.

Now let’s look at Jaime. Who convinces him to apply for the KG? It’s Cersei. I remember Cersei telling Tyrion that when she first came to court, she thought her best friend was Varys. I am convinced that it was Varys who plotted to have Jaime brought into the KG and he used Cersei to convince Jaime.

It is only after Jaime takes the white that Tywin resigns. He is brooding and pissed off. Here is my theory. Somebody was trying to make sure that the Targaryens and Lannisters did not get into bed together. I think a Targ/Lannister alliance might have posed a threat to whatever plans were being hatched at the time. According to Selmy, the rot started in the court after Varys joined. According to Jaime, Aerys was suspicious of everyone and when he missed someone, Varys made sure he whispered his name into Aerys’s ear. I think it was Varys and Illyrio.

I think this is the best explanation too, since we have good evidence for Varys involvement in other ways than poisoning, he could have gone further than just whispering.

On the other hand, it could have been Pycelle if the Citadel theory is used. But I lean more towards Varys because later Viserys seems to come to the same horrid end as Aerys. I think the only reason why Dany escaped their attention initially is because she was a girl and not considered important or a threat, and they didn’t really care what happened to her but she proved them wrong.

Yep, I don't think Varys and Illyrio saw the threat Dany posed, a very obedient and timid girl. They let her into the hands of Drogo, an man they knew not to hold women in high esteem, so she would just be a little wife to him and maybe not last so long in the Dothraki culture. They were wrong about both Drogo and Dany as it happens.

Somebody is trying to drive Robert over the edge. I don’t think he is imagining this. Unfortunately, because he is a high strung child Sansa is beginning to think he is mad.

I think LF is trying to drive Robert mad, and the singer may be real too. Maybe he is building up the "crazy-case" slowly so Sansa will start thinking Robert is going mad, and in the next book we will se Robert loosing it more and more until he is hallucinating. He will have a "episode" of a new sort and Sansa will be in danger... Enters our hero LF.

I could well be the same with Lysa, but my gut says otherwise :)

Wormwood has long been known for having psychological 'effects' (why Absinthe was banned--people believed that the wormwood in it induced hallucinations).

It has not been proved, and is still used in a lot of liquor. The reason absinthe was banned was that it was popular when the Temperance movement made it's case, about alcohol in general and absinthe in particular. The users often used opiates and drank copious amounts of alcohol so it could be delirium not caused by wormwood. There is no scientific evidence for wormwood having hallucinogenic effects, it's still under debate.

However, this may not be known to the author of these books, so it could still be interesting in this discussion.

[1234567]

@Shaggydog

That's an excellent point about the Wormwood. It is in Absinthe I think, and in the 19th century there were allegedly a couple of cases in France where someone killed a family member in an Absinthe induced fit.

Your other points about Varys, LF and Pycelle are brilliant. Also the bit about Sweetrobin is chilling. I could definitely see LF plotting that.

[1234567]

Double post...stupid IPhone.

[Shaggydog Stark]

@ Eira, great so you are on board with me :)

I think LF is trying to drive Robert mad, and the singer may be real too. Maybe he is building up the "crazy-case" slowly so Sansa will start thinking Robert is going mad, and in the next book we will se Robert loosing it more and more until he is hallucinating. He will have a "episode" of a new sort and Sansa will be in danger... Enters our hero LF.

I could well be the same with Lysa, but my gut says otherwise

Yeah that is how I see it too. Except I think Sansa is going to protect little Robert. I keep remembering after Lysa's murder when Robert went to sleep in Sansa's bed and he asked her if she was her mother now and Sansa replied "I suppose I am." :)...maybe you are right about Lysa but somebody is trying to drive Robert nuts!

It has not been proved, and is still used in a lot of liquor. The reason absinthe was banned was that it was popular when the Temperance movement made it's case, about alcohol in general and absinthe in particular. The users often used opiates and drank copious amounts of alcohol so it could be delirium not caused by wormwood. There is no scientific evidence for wormwood having hallucinogenic effects, it's still under debate.

However, this may not be known to the author of these books, so it could still be interesting in this discussion.

And just when we thought we had solved part of the riddle...;)

@Shaggydog

That's an excellent point about the Wormwood. It is in Absinthe I think, and in the 19th century there were allegedly a couple of cases in France where someone killed a family member in an Absinthe induced fit.

Well I would love to take credit but I can't :). You are the one who came up with the whole moontea theory and Gillio/Queen Beyond the Wall came up with the rest. I thought it was excellent and we had finally made some breaking discovery until Eira started getting really scientific. :lol:

Your other points about Varys, LF and Pycelle are brilliant. Also the bit about Sweetrobin is chilling. I could definitely see LF plotting that.

Thanks :blushing: . Yeah, I actually feel really sorry for little Robert. I know he is a brat and everything but he doesn't deserve this, he is only a child.

[Eyron]

Yeah that is how I see it too. Except I think Sansa is going to protect little Robert. I keep remembering after Lysa's murder when Robert went to sleep in Sansa's bed and he asked her if she was her mother now and Sansa replied "I suppose I am." :)...maybe you are right about Lysa but somebody is trying to drive Robert nuts!

Oh I am hoping Sansa will stick it to LF, save Sweetrobin and have the Vale throw down LF for conspiring to kill the little lord! I just remembered, Bronze Yohn Royce was the one that knighted Harry the Heir... So maybe we will see if Harry remembers too :) The problem with Robert is that he will probably never be able to rule, and I think he loves Sansa as much as he is able to love anybody. So if Sansa marries Harry I think he will be lord protector, if not Sansa herself! She will be backed by Bronze Yohn I am sure and good things will happen.

So for all his sneaking LF will not be successful.

See, I could get bronze into this too!

On topic :) It is very possible that LF has tricked Lysa into giving Robert poison when they lived in KL too, his fits could be the effect of that. There could be an allergy or hypersensitivity to some substance in the background, that LF could use, or he made her use the wrong dosage of the medicines the maesters gave her. Or simply gave her poison and said it was medicine. Something is wrong with the child and I don't like how they keep giving him dangerous substances. I don't think Lysa would hurt her son intentionally, she seemed very overprotective.

It could be that LF made Lysa take something when she was trying to get pregnant to, like Rapsie suggested, we don't know, but that seems reasonable since he would not want more Arryn heirs to handle in his masterplan.

Well I would love to take credit but I can't :). You are the one who came up with the whole moontea theory and Gillio/Queen Beyond the Wall came up with the rest. I thought it was excellent and we had finally made some breaking discovery until Eira started getting really scientific. :lol:

Sorry! I know that in the US it was banned and most of Europe, not in Sweden as it happens, because of the dubious cases of evidence and because it's used here for other purposes and has never had the effects proposed by the Temperance movement.

:) Before you ask, no I don't use it myself! I had a taste once, but it was not delicious so why continue.

[Eyron]

BTW I think Sansa is suspicious about Roberts medicines and that she will hold him off them somehow, I think she is starting to make her own schemes and that she will rid herself of LF.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Oh I am hoping Sansa will stick it to LF, save Sweetrobin and have the Vale throw down LF for conspiring to kill the little lord! I just remembered, Bronze Yohn Royce was the one that knighted Harry the Heir... So maybe we will see if Harry remembers too :) The problem with Robert is that he will probably never be able to rule, and I think he loves Sansa as much as he is able to love anybody. So if Sansa marries Harry I think he will be lord protector, if not Sansa herself! She will be backed by Bronze Yohn I am sure and good things will happen.

So for all his sneaking LF will not be successful.

See, I could get bronze into this too!

I like this ;)...I had forgotten that Bronze Yohn had knighted Harry. Actually, I didn't even know Harry was knighted :lol: . Good catch! That is actually quite stupid of LF to marry Sansa to someone who might have loyalties to Bronze Yohn. Could this be his first mistake? Well done on including the information on bronze :D . You know what we are missing though? The...FM! :lmao:

On topic It is very possible that LF has tricked Lysa into giving Robert poison when they lived in KL too, his fits could be the effect of that. There could be an allergy or hypersensitivity to some substance in the background, that LF could use, or he made her use the wrong dosage of the medicines the maesters gave her. Or simply gave her poison and said it was medicine. Something is wrong with the child and I don't like how they keep giving him dangerous substances. I don't think Lysa would hurt her son intentionally, she seemed very overprotective.

It could be that LF made Lysa take something when she was trying to get pregnant to, like Rapsie suggested, we don't know, but that seems reasonable since he would not want more Arryn heirs to handle in his masterplan.

To be honest, I always thought Robert might be epileptic. What you are suggesting here is quite disturbing and quite possible. he is slowly poisoning Sweetrobin with sweetsleep. We know that that is a very dangerous drug. I am not sure how aware Sansa is of the dangers since she also told the maester to give Robert a dose before they descended down the mountain.

Sorry! I know that in the US it was banned and most of Europe, not in Sweden as it happens, because of the dubious cases of evidence and because it's used here for other purposes and has never had the effects proposed by the Temperance movement.

Before you ask, no I don't use it myself! I had a taste once, but it was not delicious so why continue

Really interesting information. Well if the results are still up in the air, I am glad you don't use it. Better to be safe than sorry :)

BTW I think Sansa is suspicious about Roberts medicines and that she will hold him off them somehow, I think she is starting to make her own schemes and that she will rid herself of LF.

I hope she does become suspicious. They are giving him some really potent stuff for a six year old. I wonder if any of the stuff is addictive. We know that the Mountain was addicted on Milk of the Poppy, so perhaps some of the other stuff are just as dangerous.

[Eyron]

I like this ;)...I had forgotten that Bronze Yohn had knighted Harry. Actually, I didn't even know Harry was knighted :lol: . Good catch! That is actually quite stupid of LF to marry Sansa to someone who might have loyalties to Bronze Yohn. Could this be his first mistake? Well done on including the information on bronze :D . You know what we are missing though? The...FM! :lmao:

I knew he was knighted but didn't remember the circumstances. I found it when looking for info on bronze, and I was a little curious about Harry. I don't know why but in my mind he is dashing and clever :)

To be honest, I always thought Robert might be epileptic. What you are suggesting here is quite disturbing and quite possible. he is slowly poisoning Sweetrobin with sweetsleep. We know that that is a very dangerous drug. I am not sure how aware Sansa is of the dangers since she also told the maester to give Robert a dose before they descended down the mountain.

Probably Robert is epileptic, that's what I thought too, but now we have other possible reasons for his fits. If I remember correctly Sansa gave him the medicine so that he would not fall off the mountain, she had no choice to get him down before the winter made it impossible.

I'm all run out of ideas on the poisoning right now, maybe it will come back later :)

[Shaggydog Stark]

I knew he was knighted but didn't remember the circumstances. I found it when looking for info on bronze, and I was a little curious about Harry. I don't know why but in my mind he is dashing and clever :)

Probably Robert is epileptic, that's what I thought too, but now we have other possible reasons for his fits. If I remember correctly Sansa gave him the medicine so that he would not fall off the mountain, she had no choice to get him down before the winter made it impossible.

I'm all run out of ideas on the poisoning right now, maybe it will come back later :)

Oh I hope he is dashing and clever! I want Sansa to fall head over heals for him. She deserves it after being pawed at by every pervert in town. Although I do like the idea of Sansa and Sandor as well. Anyway, that is a different topic ;).

Do you know of any poison that causes epileptic sort of symptoms? If anyone knows, it's probably you :)

[Eyron]

I just looked for the causes of epileptic fits and, hold your horses, it can be caused by withdrawal from different drugs, especially benzodiazepines (calming and sedative drugs, used for reducing cramps amongst other things) and alcohol. Now sweetsleep is suppose to be a such a sedative right?

I read that the hyperventilation that occurs from the withdrawal causes the fits. So this could be very important in our theory.

[Shaggydog Stark]

I just looked for the causes of epileptic fits and, hold your horses, it can be caused by withdrawal from different drugs, especially benzodiazepines (calming and sedative drugs, used for reducing cramps amongst other things) and alcohol. Now sweetsleep is suppose to be a such a sedative right?

I read that the hyperventilation that occurs from the withdrawal causes the fits. So this could be very important in our theory.

Oh wow! You are kidding me! This is huge! Finally a breakthrough! Well done Eira, but I expected no less from you. You do know that you are a bloody genius, don't you? :)

Yay, finally some proof for the theory :)

[Eyron]

The honour goes to wikipedia and the public websites of medicine, but thank you kindly ma'am! I do search the internet fast :D

At least we have some proof for Sweetrobin being given something that causes his fits, but maybe not the "madness" paste. That remains to be seen... Keep on the look out for meals including savory pieces of meat!

I get all excited thinking about this, how will we survive all this time until the next Sansa chapters?

[Shaggydog Stark]

Well you did the leg work and deserve the credit :). I bet you anything that LF is giving little Robert something that causes hallucinations.

By the way, they give Robert dreamwine as well another sedative and milk of the poppy IIRC. All of them are sedatives. I am excited too :)

Okay, we need to find a drug that causes hallucinations. Or could Marillion really be alive? Perhaps he is helping LF to drive Sweetrobin mad? If that is the case, why can't Sansa hear him sing? Hmmmm.

By the way, I am doing my own research and during Tyrion's trial, maester Pycelle identifies Basilisk venom. What is that? Do we know? Does it cause insanity like baslisk blood or does it kill?

[Eyron]

I can't find anything on Basilisks that could be of use, they live in the jungle of Yi Ti and that's about it :)

I did find that a certain Salvia is a hallucinogenic but that does not give us much at the moment since it's hard to remember if it's been used, it's a herb (sage/mint family) so it could be put in food.

I guess it's of relevance that Illyrio is dealing with spices and things from the beyond the Jade Sea, like Yi Ti maybe?

[Shaggydog Stark]

I can't find anything on Basilisks that could be of use, they live in the jungle of Yi Ti and that's about it :)

I did find that a certain Salvia is a hallucinogenic but that does not give us much at the moment since it's hard to remember if it's been used, it's a herb (sage/mint family) so it could be put in food.

I guess it's of relevance that Illyrio is dealing with spices and things from the beyond the Jade Sea, like Yi Ti maybe?

I searched too and didn't find anything. Perhaps when I reread ADWD I will find something. The problem is I am going through AFFC like a detective and it is taking forever. I am taking notes etc. So each chapter takes a few days until I am satisfied I have thoroughly combed through it.

But I like the idea of Illyrio trading beyond the Jade Sea. However, Pycelle had a specimen of the poison. So I think it is easily accessible. We shall see. I think we have made a lot of discoveries so far. I was not expecting so many breakthroughs to be honest :).

[Eyron]

Yep I think we are a bit stuck at the moment. I am rereading too but that will take forever as you say, and I am still on aGoT! I haven't put much time into it since I'm here instead :) We'll get back to this topic when we have more info.