Sandor and Sansa II

[Shaggydog Stark]

Over quota for "likes" but you know I LOVE this ;)

Of course you do! I can't wait for something to happen on this front, damn everything takes so long! ;)

Ah so true. Also Sandor would have seriously calmed down and Sansa would be more savvy.

That is so cute. I really want Sansa to finally really get that kiss that she keeps imagining she already got! I wonder how that would feel, the real thing compared to her imagination! I am sure it is supposed to be electrifying or something otherwise GRRM wouldn't make such a big deal of it :).

Well Rapsie, we just gotta work with what we've been given. If they have to fall in love sooner, then so be it! And Sansa seems to be on that path with the whole face touching thing in ACOK.... I like how GRRM showed that something special can blossom out of the most unlikely circumstances.

Yep. I especially like this because it shows how much Sansa has matured and that she can see past the burned face and into the boy in him. And besides he is so damned sexy :P .

[brashcandy]

Yep. I especially like this because it shows how much Sansa has matured and that she can see past the burned face and into the boy in him. And besides he is so damned sexy :P .

Yeah! That raspy voice - to die for!! :)

[Shaggydog Stark]

Yeah! That raspy voice - to die for!! :)

I prefer to think of it as raspy/husky :smug:

[brashcandy]

She need not marry the heir of the Vale for the Lords of the Vale to declare her the Queen of the North as Robb's heir. They didn't go to war for Robb because Lysa won't let them and once they find out that the Tyrell's are making their own play for the throne ( by killing Joffy) they will not just sit back and wait to see who they're suppose to kneel to next. Once her identity is known, all the Lords will want her for her claim so maybe Harry will swear his army to Sansa in the hopes she will marry him and make him the "King" of the North. If she's learned anything from LF she'll play coy with all of them until she marched them out of the Vale and retaken Riverrun with BF at her side leading the way. Once she's there, she'll be in even more control of her fate.

I agree that she doesn't have to marry Harry to get the lords over to her side. Indeed, if she manages to save Sweetrobin's life and expose Littlefinger they would give her their support automatically. The problem is is how long Martin intends for Littlefinger to be a player in the game. If he is practical about sticking to his 7 books schedule then LF needs to go down and soon. I'm really anxious for a new Sansa storyline that sees her taking an active role, but there are so many dymanics in play at the Vale right now, and LF has virtually everyone in his debt. The only person not in it in close proximity is Sandor, and that's why I think he has to be drawn into her storyline sooner or later.

[Tini]

She is still Sansa Lannister, and most lords may be aware that Robb disinherited her. Those who remember may not be willing to declare her Queen of the North.

[brashcandy]

She is still Sansa Lannister, and most lords may be aware that Robb disinherited her. Those who remember may not be willing to declare her Queen of the North.

The only problem would be freeing her of the murder charge. Her marriage to Tyrion was never consummated so this could be annulled. I think the Lords would be sympathetic to the fact that the Lannisters forced her into the marriage and she doesn't have to be declared Queen of the North necessarily - merely Rickon's regent if he comes back into play.

[Tini]

She is 13 years old, not of age yet, and a girl. She wouldn't be considered as Rickon's regent - not unmarried. Though I am sure the lords would help her with that as well.

I know that Robb was only 14 or 15 years old himself when he was declared king. But I don't think the lords would apply the same standard to his sister. And Robb's rule didn't turn out so well, either.

[Été]

The only problem would be freeing her of the murder charge. Her marriage to Tyrion was never consummated so this could be annulled. I think the Lords would be sympathetic to the fact that the Lannisters forced her into the marriage and she doesn't have to be declared Queen of the North necessarily - merely Rickon's regent if he comes back into play.

The Lannister marriage would always cast doubt on her motives. Could the Northmen ever be 100% convinced that she'd never 'gone native' at Joffrey's court?

[brashcandy]

The Lannister marriage would always cast doubt on her motives. Could the Northmen ever be 100% convinced that she'd never 'gone native' at Joffrey's court?

:) True, but her alleged involvement in the murder and her escape from KL certainly suggests that she was rebelling against Lannister rule.

[Été]

:) True, but her alleged involvement in the murder and her escape from KL certainly suggests that she was rebelling against Lannister rule.

...except she denies the whole thing, which muddies the waters again. I'm not saying it would categorically preclude Sansa from ruling in the North, but I think there would always be whispering.

[brashcandy]

...except she denies the whole thing, which muddies the waters again. I'm not saying it would categorically preclude Sansa from ruling in the North, but I think there would always be whispering.

Which may be why going off to live a quiet, non political life, with a certain man whose reputation is even worse than yours might make lots of sense ;)

[Raksha the Demon]

There are three large obstacles between Sansa and a valid claim on Winterfell:

1. She is married to a Lannister; and that marriage, provided Robb's will was witnessed and is extant, excludes her from inheriting Winterfell.

It could be that the will set aside the exclusion if Sansa became Tyrion's widow, or if the marriage was annulled; as long as Sansa bore no Lannister children. In that case, Sansa's claim could be reinstated. From the history of Tyrion's ill-fated first marriage, annulling a marriage, even a consummated marriage, is not that difficult for the lord of a great House. Tywin had the marriage of Tywin and Tysha annulled, despite the two weeks of consummation and (presumably) lack of Tysha's consent to the annulment. So it's very possible that Littlefinger, being the Regent for House Arryn, Lord of the Vale until Robert's majority, could find a Septon to annul the marriage; with Sansa's testimony that the marriage was not consummated. That is, if the Septon is trustworthy and does not send word to King's Landing that the suspected co-regicide Sansa Stark was holed up in the Vale.

Littlefinger might hold up the annulment; to use it as a bargaining chip to further coerce Sansa into doing his bidding, cooperating in SweetRobin's untimely death, letting him kiss and grope her some more, etc. If Sansa is smart, unless she falls desperately in love with the not-so-squeaky-clean Harry-the-Heir, she could forestall any further use of herself as a Winterfell Inheritance Pawn by claiming that her marriage to Tyrion was consummated, at least for the moment.

2. Rickon Stark lives. Sooner or later, he might be returned to prominence as a very viable heir to Winterfell, being healthy and strong, young enough to be molded, and giving a lot of power to whoever becomes his Regent.

3. Bran Stark lives. Unfortunately for Sansa's claim and all the greedy souls who want to claim Winterfell through her, her surviving brothers' claims precede hers. Bran might also return to reclaim and rebuild Winterfell. And if he and Rickon both still have their large furry friends by their sides, it would be difficult to say that they're imposters; your average pretender would not have the mystical/genetic moxie to bond with the living sigil of House Stark.

I think Sansa could, eventually, become Regent for Rickon if Bran does not return; or Regent for Bran for a few years. Or she might become Lady of the Vale. If SweetRobin dies and Sansa marries Harry and he dies too, leaving her with a healthy male heir, then Sansa would rule the Eyrie and the Vale for many years. Maybe Sandor could join her there...

[Alexia]

I don't know why anyone thinks that it would be smart to claim her marriage to Tyrion was consummated unless they think she wants to return to Tyrion. She has the right to flatly refuse to marry -- as she points out, even the High Septon cannot force a woman to marry unless she says the vows. If the Blackfish takes over her custody, he is not going to beat or torture her into agreeing to marry. Once she gets out from under LF's thumb, she can simply refuse.

She would be really stupid to claim consummation of that marriage.

[brashcandy]

If Sansa is smart, unless she falls desperately in love with the not-so-squeaky-clean Harry-the-Heir, she could forestall any further use of herself as a Winterfell Inheritance Pawn by claiming that her marriage to Tyrion was consummated, at least for the moment.

Hi Raksha, I love it when you turn up on a thread. Always such thoughtful and interesting replies :)

I have to PM you later btw.

Ok, so, this has been a crackpot of mine for a while now. That Sansa will indeed - in order to thwart LF and Harry- claim that her marriage was consummated. (and it would be a nice GRRM twist)

Unlike how Alexia feels on the topic, I actually think it would be a wise plan to enact for a couple reasons. Sansa vehemently does not want to be married off for her claim again. She may long to go home to Winterfell, but not with a husband that she does not love. Asserting that the marriage to Tyrion was consummated doesn't necessarily place her in his hands again, but rather enables LF to relinquish his hold on her, publicly at least, and buys her some time. Besides, she knows that Tyrion is not a monster, and that he never forced himself on her, so she has reason to believe that he wouldn't do it in the future.

All in all, I think it's a very feasible piece of speculation.

[Raksha the Demon]

I don't know why anyone thinks that it would be smart to claim her marriage to Tyrion was consummated unless they think she wants to return to Tyrion. She has the right to flatly refuse to marry -- as she points out, even the High Septon cannot force a woman to marry unless she says the vows. If the Blackfish takes over her custody, he is not going to beat or torture her into agreeing to marry. Once she gets out from under LF's thumb, she can simply refuse.

She would be really stupid to claim consummation of that marriage.

As far as Sansa and most of Westeros know, Tyrion has fled far away and won't be coming back anytime soon; so even if the marriage is valid, he would not be an immediate danger to Sansa. If Sansa says the marriage was consummated, it could still be eventually invalidated because Sansa was married without her father or brother's consent, not to mention against her will. Sansa saying that the marriage to Tyrion was consummated could buy her some time. Or she could just say that she swooned away in the bridal bedchamber and doesn't remember what happened afterwards; and that Tyrion left her alone afterwards. Later, she could 'recover' her memory of the wedding night and have the marriage invalidated.

[Raksha the Demon]

Hi Raksha, I love it when you turn up on a thread. Always such thoughtful and interesting replies :)

I have to PM you later btw.

Ok, so, this has been a crackpot of mine for a while now. That Sansa will indeed - in order to thwart LF and Harry- claim that her marriage was consummated. (and it would be a nice GRRM twist)

Unlike how Alexia feels on the topic, I actually think it would be a wise plan to enact for a couple reasons. Sansa vehemently does not want to be married off for her claim again. She may long to go home to Winterfell, but not with a husband that she does not love. Asserting that the marriage to Tyrion was consummated doesn't necessarily place her in his hands again, but rather enables LF to relinquish his hold on her, publicly at least, and buys her some time. Besides, she knows that Tyrion is not a monster, and that he never forced himself on her, so she has reason to believe that he wouldn't do it in the future.

All in all, I think it's a very feasible piece of speculation.

Littlefinger's plans depend on Sansa being eligible for marriage. If he is pressuring Sansa to help slowly poison SweetRobin, she could balk on the invalidation of her marriage to Tyrion in order to stall Littlefinger. If Sansa is not marriageable; then Littlefinger must keep Robert Arryn alive; without the boy, he has no claim to be Regent of House Arryn, and there goes his claim to major power.

[Alexia]

As far as Sansa and most of Westeros know, Tyrion has fled far away and won't be coming back anytime soon; so even if the marriage is valid, he would not be an immediate danger to Sansa. If Sansa says the marriage was consummated, it could still be eventually invalidated because Sansa was married without her father or brother's consent, not to mention against her will. Sansa saying that the marriage to Tyrion was consummated could buy her some time. Or she could just say that she swooned away in the bridal bedchamber and doesn't remember what happened afterwards; and that Tyrion left her alone afterwards. Later, she could 'recover' her memory of the wedding night and have the marriage invalidated.

If she goes around telling people that it was consummated, that will be used as evidence to uphold the marriage. She's far better off simply refusing not to marry. Not only that, but we've seen several characters express their opinion of getting "dwarf's leavings". It would seriously damage her ability to make another marriage in the future as well as her reputation.

LF's plans depend on Sansa cooperating. She has the right to refuse to remarry.

[Raksha the Demon]

If she goes around telling people that it was consummated, that will be used as evidence to uphold the marriage. She's far better off simply refusing not to marry. Not only that, but we've seen several characters express their opinion of getting "dwarf's leavings". It would seriously damage her ability to make another marriage in the future as well as her reputation.

LF's plans depend on Sansa cooperating. She has the right to refuse to remarry.

At the time that Littlefinger would reveal his supposed daughter as Sansa Stark, there probably would be no other trueborn children of Lord Eddard Stark known to be alive and in Westeros. I would think that plenty of knights, younger sons, and even some Houses' heirs, wouldn't mind helping themselves to "dwarf's leavings" to become Lord of Winterfell, particularly when that claim is embodied by a beautiful young woman.

Besides, if Sansa says that she doesn't remember whether her marriage to Tyrion was consummated (and she knows how to lie convincingly about amnesia), or says that it was consummated, then Littlefinger would find it harder to compel her into marriage to Harry (which would be SweetRobin's death warrant) than if Sansa just refused to marry. Such a maneuver would buy Sansa some time to make other plans; and she might be willing to hazard her future worth as a bride in order to keep her cousin alive; thinking that she could tell the truth later, or that Tyrion might be dead. And do we know if Sansa at the moment (AFFC) is feeling all that enthusiastic about marriage to anyone? I would think it would take a year or two before she gets less nervous about the prospect of marrying anyone...

[brashcandy]

If she goes around telling people that it was consummated, that will be used as evidence to uphold the marriage. She's far better off simply refusing not to marry. Not only that, but we've seen several characters express their opinion of getting "dwarf's leavings". It would seriously damage her ability to make another marriage in the future as well as her reputation.

LF's plans depend on Sansa cooperating. She has the right to refuse to remarry.

Right now LF has Sansa like a virtual prisoner. And unless the BF shows up, she doesn't have this power you're claiming to simply refuse to be married again. LF can easily threaten her by promising to claim she was involved in Lysa's murder. He could state she was sleeping with Marillion or something. God knows the man is capable of anything. So all Sansa has to protect her and Sweetrobin is ironically, her marriage status. As for "dwarf's leavings" I doubt Sansa would care very much. Her ideals have already been shattered and I don't think she's concerned about perceptions. Which is actually one of the reasons why she enjoys being Alayne Stone so much.

[Alexia]

Right now LF has Sansa like a virtual prisoner. And unless the BF shows up, she doesn't have this power you're claiming to simply refuse to be married again. LF can easily threaten her by promising to claim she was involved in Lysa's murder. He could state she was sleeping with Marillion or something. God knows the man is capable of anything. So all Sansa has to protect her and Sweetrobin is ironically, her marriage status.

No, because LF can issue all the same threats you've just mentioned if she doesn't say that her marriage was unconsummated. Either way, she's defying LF.