Catelyn is an idiot

[The GRRumbler]

Understandable is one thing. Justified is another. To justify it is to say, "Ah c'mon he is just a bastard," which I don't believe agree with. I don't believe she acted acceptably. I like characters like Dany and how she tried to intervene for the captive women taken by the Dothraki. It wasn't the "way" in the common world view, but Dany is something "special." I am not trying to make Cat a monster here, but she is no hero. Not in my eyes.

Im my previous post i was trying to explain, not justify what she did, and i don't recall anyone who defends her trying to justify it, rather trying to explain.

I hedged my statement about whether the incident in question was isolated or not because, while I have heard it stated several times that Martin said it was an isoloated outburst, I have not seen it sited so I could read it in full context. I am just being realistic. The way I read Cat she never dropped her "attitude" with Jon. She made sure he knew how she felt about him. I find that despicable. Furthermore whether or not making a child's life more difficult on a daily it was abusive is a matter of opinion. Robert and Tywin have no beef with what happened to Rhaegar's children.

I am trying to see her as a real person, not a fairytale caricature, and I think she sat their in Bran's room stewing, knowing that Jon Snow would eventually wnat to see Bran, and thinking "why my true born son and not that BASTARD!" And when he showed up she let him see Bran and she let him have it. And in spite of all that I think that when Jon came into the room if she had been receptive, even with the pong standing grudge, he would have embraced her and commiserated with her. That is the difference between the two people, in my view.

How does being distant from him during his life can be considered a abuse, i would consider a abuse if she was all the time being verbaly or physically agressive towards him, wich she hasn't.

I think people who criticize Cat for having flaws are the ones looking for fairytale caricatures, the kind that shows no flaw watsoever and is always righteous, etc. Most of the complements i see being directed towards Catelyn are exactly for the fact tha she is a multidimensional, nuanced character wich several qualities, and also, flaws.

By the Way, the quote you're looking for? Right here in westeros.org, So Spake Martin:

Thus, the question I have is if Catelyn went out of her way to mistreat Jon in the past -- and which form this might have taken -- or if she rather tried to avoid and ignore him?

"Mistreatment" is a loaded word. Did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No. Did she distance herself from him? Yes. Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No. (The instance in Bran's bedroom was obviously a very special case). But I am sure she was very protective of the rights of her own children, and in that sense always drew the line sharply between bastard and trueborn where issues like seating on the high table for the king's visit were at issue.

And Jon surely knew that she would have preferred to have him elsewhere.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Chronology_Timeline_and_Catelyn/

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

Thanks. From what Martin says I agree that Cats treatment of Jon falls short of abuse. In my view that makes her less bad, it does not make her good.

[Ygrette]

Understandable is one thing. Justified is another. To justify it is to say, "Ah c'mon he is just a bastard," which I don't believe agree with. I don't believe she acted acceptably. I like characters like Dany and how she tried to intervene for the captive women taken by the Dothraki. It wasn't the "way" in the common world view, but Dany is something "special." I am not trying to make Cat a monster here, but she is no hero. Not in my eyes.

This is an excellent example of why the two of us have different opinions and feelings about the characters, while technically being on the same page. I wholeheartedly agree with you that Catelyn is not a hero. She has flaws, she has made mistakes and she's far from perfect. But maybe that's exactly the reason why I can relate to her, why I identify a lot more with Lady Catelyn than, say, Daenerys Stormborn.

For me personally, Dany is just a bit too perfect, too clean, too pretty, too proud... not saying I hate her or even dislike her. I followed her story in AGoT with great empathy and found her development impressive. She would make a great queen and I'd be happy to dwell in Westeros under Queen Dany. But she never became my favourite, not even my Top 10. Because she is so perfect and heroic and all William Wallace.

Like Tyrion, I have a weak spot for cripples, bastards and broken things. And Catelyn, in my opinion, is a (heart)broken thing and buried just too many hopes and dreams to still be perfect. She is a lot more like me.

[Jorge Contreras]

Well It's annoying to see that Catelyn is, by far, the most controversial character in the entire saga, everybody is certain that Cersei is bad, that Jaime is looking for redemption, that Littlefinger is a corrupt politician, that Tyrion is a great man inside a small body, that Dany is a great revolutionary leader and Stannis would be a good ruler though not popular, but Cat Tully is, probably, the most complex character in ASOIAF Universe so we cannot have an uniform opinion about her, and we cannot judge her actions so easily, so there lies George RR Martin virtues as a writer in creatng a multidimensional character with many grief and emotions that are the motivations for her actions, because, that´s for certain, Catelyn is not a rational person, she takes every action and step only by her hearth withouth thinking a lot about them; however, she had some moments of sense, as in the interview between Stannis and Renly, when she proposses to make a kind of national assembly to select the rightful king between Robb, Stannis and renly and make a common cause against Joffrey who would be put aside as a rebel against the king rightfully supported by all westerosi nobility that would elected him. So, the lady was not totally absent of political sense.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

@Ygrette Good points. What saves Dany for me is the same thing that saves Ned, if either was in danger of being too perfect they remedy that by not being too bright. Their impulses are to do right but you cringe as you watch them choose unwisely for noble reasons.

With Cat I started out not liking her and never got out of that first gear, but she is smart. Smarter than Dany or Ned.

You mentioned Tyrion. Talk about a bag of mixed motives. I THINK Tyrion wants to be good but...survival and other things get in the way. He won me over with Bran. First impressions and all. It really matters to me how you treat the weak ones who can't really DO anything FOR you.

[Balefont]

It's great to see this polarizing topic move towards intelligent discourse rather than the poo-flinging that came before.

ETA: And don't think it isn't noticed that most, if not all, of the original flingers got scared away once the Cavalry of Supportive Reasoning didn't start kicking ass and taking names.

[The GRRumbler]

It's great to see this polarizing topic move towards intelligent discourse rather than the poo-flinging that came before.

ETA: And don't think it isn't noticed that most, if not all, of the original flingers got scared away once the Cavalry of Supportive Reasoning didn't start kicking ass and taking names.

lol this is going to my sign :D

[Balefont]

too bad I screwed it up.

Here's the edited version: Cavalry of Supportive Reasoning started kicking ass and taking names.

[lyvyathan]

It's debatable whether it's sense of "pride", sense of "duty", or even sense of "family". In any case, the above description would fit Tyrion, Dany, Jaime, Stannis, Renly, Tywin,... All of them are proud, have a sense of self-entitlement, and make rash (and often erroneous) decisions. Yet you still single out Catelyn for her faults and call her "idiot". The double standard here is evident.

Yeah, so? Just because I say that Catelyn is proud doesn't mean it doesn't also apply to other characters.

[Balefont]

Yeah, so? Just because I say that Catelyn is proud doesn't mean it doesn't also apply to other characters.

Yet Catelyn's supposed pride irritates you enough to complain about just her and not other characters. How about Ned's strict moral code being the reason for the downfall of House Stark? Seems to be that's a much for grievous character flaw. Yet how often do we see thread discussing Ned's dumbassery? < whines > But at least he was honorable! </ whine>

People can gnash their teeth and get annoyed about the Cat supporters (even though I personally don't endorse any character in the series at this point) but they gotta understand, so many of the criticisms leveled at her character fall into several categories: 1) There are other characters that exhibit [insert negative trait here] resulting in a greater detriment to others, 2) She's so dour and negative all the time!, 3) Her place is at Winterfell and she should have stayed home, and 4) ZOMG she was so mean to Jon!!!

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

"ZOMG she was so mean to Jon." Yep. That's it. According to GRRM Cat's treatmeant of Jon at Bran's bedside was a low point and not a regular thing. Conceded. It can not be infered that Cat's actions toward Jon prior to the opening of the book rose to the level of abuse. Agreed. The bedroom scene still defines the character for me. The same way that the beheading establishes who Ned is, a man rigidly defined by his sense of duty and honor. Cat's actions do not come from nowhere. Everything else she later does as a "mother", is tainted by that original hyporcrisy. I don't believe for a second that she didn't believe what she was saying or mean what she said. I agree with what was previously stated by another poster that the regrets Cat expressed were for falling short of her image of herself as a strong and competent noblewoman. Anyone who forgives her is welcome to do so. I don't. I still firmly believe that what she eventually becomes is an ironic mirror of what she already was inside. Cold and vindictive.

Cat has qualities but empathy and mercy are not among them.

Take Jaime and Brienne. Cat's uses them, she doesn't "care" about either of them.

Nobobdy has to agree with me, but I hold to my original opinion.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

I don't think that Catelyn is an idiot. But some of her decisions are controversial and even I having the benefit of hindsight and reading the books I am still not perfectly certain whether arresting/ kidnapping Tyrion or releasing Jamie was the right thing to do. I understand her reasons and there are some valid reasons for those actions so both of her decisions can't make her an idiot but while she has some political skills and intelligence I don't think she is a genius either.

I did not particularly like her treatment of Jon but then again I sort of like these flaws in characters even if I don't find them admirable, makes them more realistic.

While reading I didn't even have the thought that she should had stayed in Winterfell instead of being with Robb, it was pretty clear that she was more useful, needed the most with Robb but it is a tragedy that since leaving she never saw her children she left at Winterfell again and considered them dead.

[Phat Walda]

I understand that as people reading these books, we can see that Cat's mental state is unstable when she tells Jon he should have died. I get what you guys are saying, that anything she says should be taken with a grain of salt. But that doesn't mean that the person on the receiving end of a comment like that will consider things like that.

Jon can hardly hold it together when he's talking to Bran and saying how much he misses him, and Catelyn watches the whole thing and doesn't soften at all. She doesn't even want to acknowledge that he loves his "brother" (as if somehow because he was born a bastard he was born without emotions, too), and won't let him in the room at first. When she says that she prayed for Bran to stay and Jon tells her not to blame herself, she says, "I don't need your absolution, Bastard," once again making it clear that he's practically worthless in her eyes. So if anything, her saying to him, "It should have been you," seemed more like she's finally getting to say something that she's always been thinking, and that's how I feel Jon takes it. After the way she's treated him his whole life, to say something like that to him while he's trying to show love and grief to the child SHE is so distraught over, I don't know...it's just unforgivable to me.

Her feelings of shame later do not get specifically defined, but it never even occurred to me that she felt guilty about what she said to Jon. She certainly never forms a thought about him afterward that approaches contrition. I do not think she's sorry for saying it so much as she might be ashamed of having lost control of herself.

[Ygrette]

@Imp Beyond the Wall

First of all, I accept your opinion and certainly I cannot change your feelings nor is it my intention to do so. If you don't like her, I can't make you. ;)

I still have some thoughts to share. I believe there's an important difference between disliking someone and condemning/judging someone.

I personally see forgiveness as an ability rather than a weakness.

Some food for thought - I'm not necessarily expecting an answer to that, as it's quite personal:

Have you ever yelled at someone you love or someone who didn't deserve it? Do you have children and if so, have you ever yelled at them or treated them unfairly? Have you forgiven yourself for that? Do you think when you are in rage, desperation and fear, that everything you say or do in that state defines who you really are? I don't. I believe that there are some rare people in this world whose grace and forgiveness is beyond everyone else's like Mother Teresa or the Dalai Lama. There are some enlightened people on this earth, who would just stay calm and perfectly fair in every situation, no matter what. However, most people are not like that. Most people do stupid things despite best knowledge. Everybody hurts. All patients lie. Still, they deserve love and empathy - maybe even more than the saints.

That's where my problem lies in condemning people, even if they're just fictional characters. By condemning them, I'm condemning myself. By saying they reveal their "true" character when they lashed out in a single moment of emotional distress I am saying I, too, must be evil deep within, because I have yelled at people in anger, too, when I was hurt.

Some people deal with stress better than others. But I have to admit, a mother who stays calm, fair and set in the face of her child being murdered or crippled... wouldn't appear likeable and relatable to me at all. Actually, in Cat's situation I would have probably completely lost my wits and senses.

So it doesn't seem fair to make this moment the very definition of who she really is.

And well, about Jaime... I just take one second and imagine someone would lay hands on my child (I have one in real life, 6 years old) and fling her out of a window to leave her crippled. Would I care about the wellbeing of the person who did this? Most certainly not, I promise you as much. Does that make me an evil person? Maybe so. But I'm not denying who I am. It sure would have been an impressive trait of character if she had been able to genuinely care for Jaime after what he had done, but that would be a borderline superhuman strength (see above, Mother Teresa).

About Brienne, I am actually not as sure as you are that Catelyn did not care about her at all. What makes you believe so?

And for whatever it's worth, I found her rejection of Jon most upsetting myself and I felt sorry for Jon. It was plain wrong to treat him like that and shows her inability to empathize with Jon. I did not "forgive" her in a way that makes it perfectly okay. I just don't believe that it's the core of who she really is.

[Lady of Long Lake]

It's great to see this polarizing topic move towards intelligent discourse rather than the poo-flinging that came before.

ETA: And don't think it isn't noticed that most, if not all, of the original flingers got scared away once the Cavalry of Supportive Reasoning didn't start kicking ass and taking names.

It might be the insults and rudeness that has caused some to stop posting, not the collective reasoning you are attributing it to.

[Phat Walda]

I still have some thoughts to share. I believe there's an important difference between disliking someone and condemning/judging someone.

I personally see forgiveness as an ability rather than a weakness.

Some food for thought - I'm not necessarily expecting an answer to that, as it's quite personal:

Have you ever yelled at someone you love or someone who didn't deserve it? Do you have children and if so, have you ever yelled at them or treated them unfairly? Have you forgiven yourself for that? Do you think when you are in rage, desperation and fear, that everything you say or do in that state defines who you really are?

And for whatever it's worth, I found her rejection of Jon most upsetting myself and I felt sorry for Jon. It was plain wrong to treat him like that and shows her inability to empathize with Jon. I did not "forgive" her in a way that makes it perfectly okay. I just don't believe that it's the core of who she really is.

Yes, I have certainly yelled at people who didn't deserve it. But I have never told anyone I wished they were dead. And if I had, I would like to believe I would have felt disgusted with myself later.

[Ygrette]

@Phat Walda,

the question is not if you said exactly the same as Catelyn or if your level of distress was the same as Catelyn's in that situation (did your child get crippled)?

The question I'm asking is, does this moment of weakness truly define who you really are in your very core? Is this a mirror of your personality as a human being? Or is it just one of many facets of your character?

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

@Imp Beyond the Wall

First of all, I accept your opinion and certainly I cannot change your feelings nor is it my intention to do so. If you don't like her, I can't make you. ;)

I still have some thoughts to share. I believe there's an important difference between disliking someone and condemning/judging someone.

I personally see forgiveness as an ability rather than a weakness.

Some food for thought - I'm not necessarily expecting an answer to that, as it's quite personal:

Have you ever yelled at someone you love or someone who didn't deserve it? Do you have children and if so, have you ever yelled at them or treated them unfairly? Have you forgiven yourself for that? Do you think when you are in rage, desperation and fear, that everything you say or do in that state defines who you really are? I don't. I believe that there are some rare people in this world whose grace and forgiveness is beyond everyone else's like Mother Teresa or the Dalai Lama. There are some enlightened people on this earth, who would just stay calm and perfectly fair in every situation, no matter what. However, most people are not like that. Most people do stupid things despite best knowledge. Everybody hurts. All patients lie. Still, they deserve love and empathy - maybe even more than the saints.

That's where my problem lies in condemning people, even if they're just fictional characters. By condemning them, I'm condemning myself. By saying they reveal their "true" character when they lashed out in a single moment of emotional distress I am saying I, too, must be evil deep within, because I have yelled at people in anger, too, when I was hurt.

Some people deal with stress better than others. But I have to admit, a mother who stays calm, fair and set in the face of her child being murdered or crippled... wouldn't appear likeable and relatable to me at all. Actually, in Cat's situation I would have probably completely lost my wits and senses.

So it doesn't seem fair to make this moment the very definition of who she really is.

And well, about Jaime... I just take one second and imagine someone would lay hands on my child (I have one in real life, 6 years old) and fling her out of a window to leave her crippled. Would I care about the wellbeing of the person who did this? Most certainly not, I promise you as much. Does that make me an evil person? Maybe so. But I'm not denying who I am. It sure would have been an impressive trait of character if she had been able to genuinely care for Jaime after what he had done, but that would be a borderline superhuman strength (see above, Mother Teresa).

@Ygrette

First of all, your points are valid. On balance I am still pretty anti-Cat, but I do respect what you are saying about forgiveness, etc.

About Jaime, I did not mean to imply that she "should" care about him. If she knew the truth about Bran, she would have had him tortured to death. Frankly, he would have had it coming IMO. I brought up Jaime and Brienne because I think of them as pawns that Cat was putting into play. She neither loved nor hated them, or better yet regardless of whether she love or hated them, she had a use for them and that was what mattered. She set Jaime free and trusted Brienne as pure detached calculation.

Off topic - I need a new thread. I do not subscribe to the belief that "Cat is an idiot", nor can I bring myself to defend her, so I am always a little off topic in this thread.

[Phat Walda]

@Phat Walda,

the question is not if you said exactly the same as Catelyn or if your level of distress was the same as Catelyn's in that situation (did your child get crippled)?

The question I'm asking is, does this moment of weakness truly define who you really are in your very core? Is this a mirror of your personality as a human being? Or is it just one of many facets of your character?

I understand what you're saying, but what I'm saying is not that it's what she SAID that defines her (because, to answer your question, no it doesn't), but that she feels no remorse for it afterward or spares Jon a second thought until she comes across another Bastard Surname and her hackles are raised again.

[Balefont]

It might be the insults and rudeness that has caused some to stop posting, not the collective reasoning you are attributing it to.

Oh come on. Really? That's what it was?

When things got a little hairy between OnionReborn and I, we worked it out. If someone feels they are being treated unfairly, they can speak up and discuss it like mature adults. Or they can chose not to - just don't complain if that's the case.

ETA: Even Phat Walda's post content has shown dramatic improvement over the course of the thread.