Catelyn is an idiot

[The GRRumbler]

Because it's silly to pick out one single person out of everyone on the continent who could be a potential threat. Since Jon is no more threatening than anyone else, why should Cat be spending her time making sure that he understands that he cannot inherit Winterfell. She didn't feel the need to make sure that Roose Bolton knew he could not rightfully become Warden of the North or Lord Paramount of the North or to make sure Ramsay Snow understood that he could not rightfully become Lord of Winterfell. But these are the people who actually stole her children's inheritance. The point is that if Jon is an equal threat to absolutely everyone else, you're as much wasting your time telling him to know his place as you are telling anyone else to know their place. You're pissing in the wind. And in this case the piss is blowing back into a child's face. But I think it was actually much more personal than political between Cat and Jon anyway.

Yeah she should totally go all the way to the Dreadfort, install herself there and constantly reminding the psycho that he is no the warden of the nort, all that before the events tha led to Roose's agreement with tywin, yeah, that makes sense.

I don't think she is picking him for pure hatred, she is picking him because he is the closest threat, and therefore the most dangerous, and that moment.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Yeah she should totally go all the way to the Dreadfort, install herself there and constantly reminding the psycho that he is no the warden of the nort, all that before the events tha led to Roose's agreement with tywin, yeah, that makes sense.

I don't think she is picking him for pure hatred, she is picking him because he is the closest threat, and therefore the most dangerous, and that moment.

No, she should not go to the Dreadfort, that would be silly and pointless because she has no way of knowing that Roose and Ramsay are actually going to be the real threats. Jon is not the most dangerous threat because he is closest to her, she is wrong to view him as a greater threat to her children's inheritance than anyone else, and people are wrong when they defend the argument that bastards are greater threats.

If you want to make the case that Jon was the only threat near to her so it's better to intimidate him into not wanting Wintefell than to intimidate no one at all I respond with this:

1) Jon really isn't even a greater threat than Ser Rodrik, Littlefinger proves that even the lowest born nobles, if cunning enough, can take what they want. So Jon isn't even a greater threat than other people close by.

2) It's not a good enough reason to treat a child this way, even if he were the closest potential threat to you, because maybe someday he will be equally as threatening as many many other people.

But again, I think this was personal and not political. I think Cat used the political angle as her shield to distance herself and her children from Jon on a personal level.

[Ygrette]

:blushing:

I don't mine people disagreeing, but when it devolves into a, "ORLY? LAWL" sarcasm fest, I get seriously annoyed. It's obnoxious, and doesn't further the conversation. :ack:

Oh don't worry, it was not you. *coughs*levvyathan*coughs*

Although we disagree on Catelyn, I can see your compassion for Jon, which again is a somewhat motherly/protective trait, which again makes me like you. Even if you might wanna scratch my eyes out for defending Cat, I can still see where you're coming from and feel a certain sympathy for your view. ;)

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

Is it safe to say that if Cat's antipathy toward Jon centered primarily on the claim to Winterfell and possible usurpation of Robb's inheritance, that the succession would have come up in some significant way in Cat, Jon or Ned's POV's? If it was mentioned at all it was not a central focus...or was it? I don't remember the key players arguing about it, talking about it or even thinking about it.

[Light a wight tonight]

Is it safe to say that if Cat's antipathy toward Jon centered primarily on the claim to Winterfell and possible usurpation of Robb's inheritance, that the succession would have come up in some significant way in Cat, Jon or Ned's POV's? If it was mentioned at all it was not a central focus...or was it? I don't remember the key players arguing about it, talking about it or even thinking about it.

I doubt that the inheritance is what's on Catelyn's mind. She has three sons in line to do that, in addition to any Stark cousins. Sansa and Arya are in the mix, too, but females aren't high in the inheritance hierarchy.

What's on her mind is that Ned won't open up to her on Jon's background. She is hurt by this and Jon's presence is a constant reminder. It may be to her credit that she only treats Jon coldly rather than a constantly abusing him verbally (doubtful that Ned would have allowed physical abuse). Other than Catelyn, Jon seems to have good relationships with everyone else at Winterfell. Except maybeTheon, who is a putz anyhow.

You need to go deeper than the Jon situation to make Cat an idiot.

[The GRRumbler]

No, she should not go to the Dreadfort, that would be silly and pointless because she has no way of knowing that Roose and Ramsay are actually going to be the real threats. Jon is not the most dangerous threat because he is closest to her, she is wrong to view him as a greater threat to her children's inheritance than anyone else, and people are wrong when they defend the argument that bastards are greater threats.

If you want to make the case that Jon was the only threat near to her so it's better to intimidate him into not wanting Wintefell than to intimidate no one at all I respond with this:

1) Jon really isn't even a greater threat than Ser Rodrik, Littlefinger proves that even the lowest born nobles, if cunning enough, can take what they want. So Jon isn't even a greater threat than other people close by.

2) It's not a good enough reason to treat a child this way, even if he were the closest potential threat to you, because maybe someday he will be equally as threatening as many many other people.

But again, I think this was personal and not political. I think Cat used the political angle as her shield to distance herself and her children from Jon on a personal level.

She doesn't know that she knows what she sees there and then, littlefinger was problably more clever than her about these things, but if you want to judge a characters actions, at least you have to try and see the circumstances from their point of view, so while Jon might not be the worst threat, she saw him as one and acted preemptively.

Yes she did tried to distance herself from him personaly, she obviously dislikes him.

But i don't think she tried to distance her kids from him. and if she tried, clearly failed.

[Phat Walda]

Is it safe to say that if Cat's antipathy toward Jon centered primarily on the claim to Winterfell and possible usurpation of Robb's inheritance, that the succession would have come up in some significant way in Cat, Jon or Ned's POV's? If it was mentioned at all it was not a central focus...or was it? I don't remember the key players arguing about it, talking about it or even thinking about it.

I do remember that she was pleased that if Jon was on the Watch, he would have no children to potentially be a problem as far as heirs.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

She doesn't know that she knows what she sees there and then, littlefinger was problably more clever than her about these things, but if you want to judge a characters actions, at least you have to try and see the circumstances from their point of view, so while Jon might not be the worst threat, she saw him as one and acted preemptively.

Yes she did tried to distance herself from him personaly, she obviously dislikes him.

But i don't think she tried to distance her kids from him. and if she tried, clearly failed.

I understand that Catelyn viewed Jon as the worst threat, I'm saying she was wrong about this. And that when people say that bastards are a threat in order to defend Cat's treatment of Jon, they are wrong about that too. I am arguing that bastards are no greater threat than anyone else and I believe that Cat and anyone else who thinks so is wrong about this.

[brashcandy]

I doubt that the inheritance is what's on Catelyn's mind. She has three sons in line to do that, in addition to any Stark cousins. Sansa and Arya are in the mix, too, but females aren't high in the inheritance hierarchy.

What's on her mind is that Ned won't open up to her on Jon's background. She is hurt by this and Jon's presence is a constant reminder. It may be to her credit that she only treats Jon coldly rather than a constantly abusing him verbally (doubtful that Ned would have allowed physical abuse). Other than Catelyn, Jon seems to have good relationships with everyone else at Winterfell. Except maybeTheon, who is a putz anyhow.

You need to go deeper than the Jon situation to make Cat an idiot.

This is basically what Onion has been trying to argue. Cat defenders love to excuse her paranoid, spiteful behaviour as being worried about inheritance, but it's just not true. It was a personal vendetta borne of jealousy and anger and fear that Ned favoured Jon and his mother more than he did her and her children. So she stressed the bastard thing to put Jon in his place, but it was never about that.

This is why Cat is so annoyed that Jon looks more like Ned than any one of her children, particularly the boys.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

I doubt that the inheritance is what's on Catelyn's mind. She has three sons in line to do that, in addition to any Stark cousins. Sansa and Arya are in the mix, too, but females aren't high in the inheritance hierarchy.

What's on her mind is that Ned won't open up to her on Jon's background. She is hurt by this and Jon's presence is a constant reminder. It may be to her credit that she only treats Jon coldly rather than a constantly abusing him verbally (doubtful that Ned would have allowed physical abuse). Other than Catelyn, Jon seems to have good relationships with everyone else at Winterfell. Except maybeTheon, who is a putz anyhow.

You need to go deeper than the Jon situation to make Cat an idiot.

My point exactly. Cat's problem with Jon isn't Winterfell, it just doesn't make sense. The only mention of "Winterfell" in this context (that I remember)is Jon's recollection of his childhood game with Robb. I don't think the real point of this episode is hurt feelings, or Robb, or Cat or any of the obvious stuff. I think it is irony. The fact that on one level when Stannis offers Jon "Winterfell" it is sort of everything Jon every hoped for, however, what Jon really wants isn't the seat of Winterfell. What Jon really wants is to be a true son of Ned Stark. Honor, duty, all that. In order to be a true "Stark", Snow must give up "Winterfell" and honor his vow to stay on the wall. To go North would be breaking faith with his father. IMO.

If Cat was really focusing on Jon as a potential threat to her children's birthright, she really blew it because the viper nursing at the bosom of Winterfell was Greyjoy not Snow.

[birdsong66]

What's on her mind is that Ned won't open up to her on Jon's background. She is hurt by this and Jon's presence is a constant reminder. It may be to her credit that she only treats Jon coldly rather than a constantly abusing him verbally (doubtful that Ned would have allowed physical abuse). Other than Catelyn, Jon seems to have good relationships with everyone else at Winterfell. Except maybeTheon, who is a putz anyhow.

THIS.^^

Speaking as a former step child whose step mother regularly and gleefully announced her wish that my siblings and myself meet with an untimely death, making her life with my father infinitely easier, yes, I would agree that wishing a disfiguring accident on any child is fairly abusive. The difference here, however, is that while my step mother vocalized her wishes with predictable regularity, Catelyn slipped once, so trust me when I tell you I would have preferred the Catelyn Stark abuse to what we put up with for many years.

I don't harbor any ill will towards her (my step) because, well, she had some major fucking issues...but overall, she had the potential to be a very kind person, despite her behavior towards me and my sibs. She was an asshole to us, but not an asshole in general. That's kind of how I look at Catelyn---she was a momentary asshole to Jon, but that was not her general disposition. I like Catelyn, and I'll defend Catelyn because I have the great fortune to have like experiences through which to understand Catelyn. YMMV. It's cool.

[Ygrette]

I don't harbor any ill will towards her (my step) because, well, she had some major fucking issues...but overall, she had the potential to be a very kind person, despite her behavior towards me and my sibs. She was an asshole to us, but not an asshole in general. That's kind of how I look at Catelyn---she was a momentary asshole to Jon, but that was not her general disposition. I like Catelyn, and I'll defend Catelyn because I have the great fortune to have like experiences through which to understand Catelyn. YMMV. It's cool.

:wub:

I like what you said, a lot. There's so much strength in forgiveness and in the ability to see beyond a character's momentary failures.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

Agreed. Forgiveness is awesome.

[Ygrette]

...and because I think this thread needs more luuuurve:

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkk47jOuUN1qiuukyo1_250.gif

[lyvyathan]

Saving Private Breinne was without a doubt a good thing. But again, I see this as an example of Cat's brains not her heart. She had just witnessed Stannins' use of "black magic" and she rightly deduces that Renly host will collapse. She knows that getting the hell out of there is her only option. Cat has witnessed multiple examples of Brienne's over-the-top loyalty and she has seen the girl in action, whipping the Knight of Flowers in a melee. The snap decision to recruit Brienne was logical not sentimental. IMO.

Well mayhaps - and also the most important fact that Brienne was probably the only knight willing to go on the fool's errand. I doubt anyone else in Robb's camp would be willing to help Jamie Lannister escape because it was such a stupid plan.

[7V3N]

You guys have no sympathy. Cat was stupid and rash in many situations, but she did it because her children's lives were at stake. She knows very well, as the scars on her hands remind her. This is not paranoia. She knows someone tried to murder Bran. After that, she just could not see her whole family die. She knew Robb was a king and beyond her control. She feared every moment he was gone at war, never knowing if he will come back. Her husband was beheaded by the Lannisters in a hostile takeover. Her only daughters are (in her mind) in the hands of those murderers. Her father who she has not been able to seen (I believe) since her wedding is at death's door. Her sons, who she believed safe in their homeland the North behind the walls of Winterfell, are then murdered by a boy that her husband housed and treated almost as if he was his own child.

Of course she is trying to do stupid things to get her children back, because if she doesn't then they are as good as dead! The Lannisters didn't keep Ned as a hostage for long, who knows how long Arya and Sansa have!

[The GRRumbler]

I understand that Catelyn viewed Jon as the worst threat, I'm saying she was wrong about this. And that when people say that bastards are a threat in order to defend Cat's treatment of Jon, they are wrong about that too. I am arguing that bastards are no greater threat than anyone else and I believe that Cat and anyone else who thinks so is wrong about this.

That's why we'll have to agree to disagree, i think they are a greater threat, mostly because of their proximity.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

That's why we'll have to agree to disagree, i think they are a greater threat, mostly because of their proximity.

Ok, fair enough.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

That's why we'll have to agree to disagree, i think they are a greater threat, mostly because of their proximity.

The Bastard Snow has no greater proximity than the Hostage Greyjoy, but we observe no open hostility toward him. He is allowed to feast with the royal family, etc. Politics was handled in a very "courtly" manner. The issue between Cat and Jon is personal. If the politics of "bastardy" is an issue, it is way in the background. IMO.

[Tyler Snow]

Not that I am an ardent defender of Catelyn but one of her major mistakes, in my view, of releasing Jaime Lannister was a direct result of her animosity towards Jon Snow.

For, what, 15 years? Catelyn's biggest fear was of Jon Snow usurping Winterfell from her true born children. Whether this was a legitimate threat or not (I do not believe it was, as I'm sure most readers would agree) it still gestated for an exceedingly long period of time, enough that anyone who dwelt on a problem for that long would, no doubt, exaggerate its danger to verify their ill conceived concerns. Factor into this psychosis popular tales of the time. The Kingdoms are ripe with bastard children fighting for titles or leading rebellions (think the Blackfyre Rebellion), and you really do have a powder keg and the War of the Five Kings lights the fuse.

Suddenly, Catelyn finds her worst nightmare for the past decade and a half coming true. Bran and Rickon are "dead" at the hands of Theon Greyjoy, leaving only Robb as her eldest and last remaining heir who is also leader of an army in a deadly game against the Crown and the Lannisters. Sansa a hostage in King's Landing and Arya either there, missing, or dead as well. No doubt the specter of Jon Snow claiming Winterfell if Robb, Sansa, and Arya cause a mental panic within Catelyn which lead to her rash decision to release Jaime Lannister for a shot in the dark of being able to gather her children safely to her.

It was irrational, selfish, short sighted, and, in the end, driven almost completely by fear of Jon Snow taking Ned's place as Lord of Winterfell. While I do feel that this threat was borne on wings by Catelyn's imagination, I do now have trouble faulting her for such concerns given the climate of the Seven Kingdoms at the time and of the popular culture and tales that permeated through them.

If anything, I would almost fault Robb for not leaving explicit instructions to his guards not to let his mother near the prisoner for two reasons. Either A.) Catelyn would do as she did and seek to endear some sort of goodwill to protect her brood or B.) Kill Jaime in a frenzy of grief and rage over Ned's death coupled with Bran and Rickon's supposed demise.

In the end, I still think Catelyn's decision was a bad one but, upon further analysis, I can understand the origin of the motivation to release Lannister in the hopes of getting Sansa and Arya back. Sad as it sounds, I think it was the unsubstantiated threat of the bastard, Jon Snow.